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Dancer in Merit Parties
Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-19 22:56:41
For some reason I was thinking it came from the Prime fight which is why i as like "why dont more people use it" then I noticed its from Carby prime, lol.
Shiva.Daimos
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By Shiva.Daimos 2010-05-19 22:57:20
Sylph.Kimble said: For some reason I was thinking it came from the Prime fight which is why i as like "why dont more people use it" then I noticed its from Carby prime, lol. More reason to use it if ya have it. Trophies ftw
Sylph.Kozuki
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By Sylph.Kozuki 2010-05-19 22:58:56
I want to do that fight ; ;
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By Phoenix.Smileybone 2010-05-19 22:59:24
Shouldn't the COR be contributing to the damage as well?
Shiva.Daimos
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By Shiva.Daimos 2010-05-19 23:02:22
Phoenix.Smileybone said: Shouldn't the COR be contributing to the damage as well? Which would only further prove Duvessa's point.
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra
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By Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra 2010-05-19 23:03:29
While DNC is useful in merit parties, just by eyeballing the OP, the math looks totally wrong.
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By Phoenix.Smileybone 2010-05-19 23:06:08
Shiva.Daimos said: Phoenix.Smileybone said: Shouldn't the COR be contributing to the damage as well? Which would only further prove Duvessa's point.
I know, I just don't like seeing CORs getting left out. :(
Shiva.Daimos
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By Shiva.Daimos 2010-05-19 23:07:31
Phoenix.Smileybone said: Shiva.Daimos said: Phoenix.Smileybone said: Shouldn't the COR be contributing to the damage as well? Which would only further prove Duvessa's point.
I know, I just don't like seeing CORs getting left out. :( I've been in quite a few pt's where the COR did nothing but rolls, some just can't do it right...
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-19 23:07:49
Leviathan.Duvessa said: I pm'ed you what i use for my dancer's DE's... It's not great but it puts me in the 1100 club for my average WS on the parse charts. I refuse to heal in merit pt's as DNC, cuz I'd just play RDM if i wanted to do that. I do understand how it's useful, though. But damned if I'm not gonna use the hell out of my 5/5 saber dance merits, which render healing impossible lol.
The way i look at it is... If your RDM or WHM/SCH can't heal on their own with BRD, COR, Sanction, and Refresh Gear... Then they should be replaced immediately. Thus freeing the DNC up to spam their yummy dagger WS's :D
Too lazy to argue maffs, but a RDM or WHM/SCH can't mainheal if DD are like... hassoing and stuff. Pretty sure fulltime hasso > DE damage. And I dunno why you don't think curing is fun :< It's boring on a mage, kinda exciting on a DNC. @_@;;
Edit: Cor should be /war or /dnc and meleeing/wsing and where applicable throwing out healing waltz.
More Edits:
Thornyy said: Copypaste from another thread:
Your sample RDM has stone mufflers, stone gorget, poison tasters cape, morrigan's robe, duelist's chapeau. They composure stoneskin, haste, refresh, regen and idle in orochi nodowa. During most convert cycles(8 min 20 secs, full merits of course), regen will be down for 225 seconds and up for 275 seconds. In some cases, it'll be down at start/end and you'll lose a bit of hp, but can overlook this as it favors running out of mp not sustaining it. This amounts to 459 hp. Regen trait and orochi nodowa will get you an additional 334, for 793 total. Now, assuming your perfect RDM has a 1200 convert, you'll need to cure4 yourself once, for 88 mp. This makes the cost of a convert cycle 88 mp, keeping composure cycle seperate. Each composure will use up 40 mp for haste, 40 for refresh, 29 for stoneskin, and 15 for regen. This is 124 mp per 7.5 minutes, or 16.5 mp per minute used. 88 / 8 1/3 = 10.5 mp per minute used. Self-sustainment costs 27 mp per minute. Your DD will require 3 hastes, at 120 mp per 3 minutes. This amounts to 40 mp per minute. Total cost: 67 mp per minute. At 250 exp per kill, 40k/hr is 160 monsters, or a kill every 22.5 seconds. This amounts to 120 mp per minute in dia. Stoneskin -should- cover poison potions as well as reflected dias when recast every 7:30 with gorget/mufflers, though it'll be close. Total cost: 187 mp per minute.
Convert will be 1200 mp every 8:20, which gives you 138 mp per minute. 12/tick with ballads and evokers is 240 mp per minute, grand total: 378 mp per minute regained and 187 spent on static spells. 191 mp per minute to spend on cures.
Assuming each colibri gets 4 hits in, as they have a 6 second delay with elegy and no delay on first swing(~180 damage each) and every 6th colibri gets a pecking flurry(600), you're looking at 820 damage per colibri or 2186 damage per minute to heal with your remaining 191 mp. You can't even make half of that, so it's safe to say that your DD are going to need to seigan, even with all of this perfection. If you're going to mention resting, a dia every 22.5 seconds limits you to one click at a time if you do it immediately after dia(first click is 20 seconds) and requires that you don't have to cast any spells in between. Realistically, this will not amount to anything over time, and you'll also need to cast erase. Wivre and Mamool will do more damage.
I don't give a *** how good your healer is, you're not keeping up with fulltime hasso while diaing every mob.
Swapping to seigan costs you a weaponskill about every 20 seconds. Real DD will drastically outdamage DNC WS for WS, so you're just making an idiot out of yourself acting as if your damage is worth making someone seigan.
Edit again:
Also, BRDs really don't have time to throw out ballads, and CORs throwing out Evoker's rolls gimps their (personal) EXP, making DNC an ideal healer.
Leviathan.Duvessa
サーバ: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-19 23:12:23
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra said: While DNC is useful in merit parties, just by eyeballing the OP, the math looks totally wrong.
Which part? I'm pretty sure I got all of it right.
Is it the 70 haste sam vs 80 haste sam?
Here's the exact math for 70:
480 base delay of the weapon * 0.3 = 144 modified delay
Attack speed = delay/60, thus 144/60 for 2.4 seconds per attack.
For 80 haste (adding in haste samba)
480 base delay of the weapon * 0.2 = 96 modified delay
Attack speed = delay/60, thus 96/60 = 1.6 seconds per attack.
If they are averaging 175 damage per melee hit:
60 seconds / 2.4 secs per attack = 25 attacks a minute from 70% haste.
25 x 175 = 4,375 damage
60 seconds / 1.6 seconds per attack = 37.5 attacks a minute with 80% haste
37.5 x 175 = 6562.5 damage
To find double attack damage we do this (i'll only do it for 80 haste):
37.5 attacks * .15 (chance to double attack, 15%) = 5.625 double attacks. Add that to your 37.5 attacks for 43.125 attacks. (Or you can do 37.5 * 1.15, and avoid the addition)
43.125 x 175 = 7546.875 damage
That's a step by step breakdown of the math.
To Niniann
Whm/Sch has afflatus solace, which will essentially null a hit or two, as well. Stoneskin cures~ I've never had low MP breaking a chain when i was DD;ing on DNC. Of course there's times of low mp though, but they get by.
Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-19 23:16:13
Wait, COR and BRD shouldnt give out refresh in merit parties?
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By Phoenix.Smileybone 2010-05-19 23:17:26
Sylph.Kimble said: Wait, COR and BRD shouldnt give out refresh in merit parties? I think he means in a party where the DNC would be main healer instead of a RDM, it would benefit the BRD and COR because they wouldn't have to deal with mage songs/rolls.
Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-19 23:18:37
I never have trouble keeping 4 songs (hastes and ballads) while pulling on BRD and still keeping chains, though.
Just gotta time your casts right between pulls.
Well, I take that back. Sometimes I won't give a mage ballad 1 if they're above around 80% MP just to save myself some time, but if they're lower than that, they got it.
Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-19 23:55:00
@Duv:
Sure, but I still can't justify DNC not healing if the DDs are doing their jobs right, IE fullout-beating the mob to death. I'll make you party with me, and you'll see how injury-prone my DDs are.
@Kimble:
Smiley said what I meant. In a DNC party, DDs are killing mobs super-fastly, and having the BRD completely focused on pulling is beneficial. Also in a DNC-heal party there's really no reason to Evoker's roll a mage, so why gimp the poor COR's EXP.
@Duv, again:
You can keep chains fine, but it's still giving a 'wait for the brd to pull the mob' delay, unless you've only been in parties with shitty DDs, in which case there may not have been a delay.
Unicorn.Moldtech
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By Unicorn.Moldtech 2010-05-19 23:57:34
Phoenix.Smileybone said: Sylph.Kimble said: Wait, COR and BRD shouldnt give out refresh in merit parties? I think he means in a party where the DNC would be main healer instead of a RDM, it would benefit the BRD and COR because they wouldn't have to deal with mage songs/rolls.
Shouldn't matter if there's a dnc in the party or not, cor and brd should still do their jobs.
Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-20 00:01:44
So, In your merits, the RDM is there just to haste and dia?
(not trying to sound like an ***, generally asking)
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Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-20 00:03:58
Sylph.Kimble said: So, In your merits, the RDM is there just to haste and dia?
And Erase, but pretty much.
@Mold:
I guess but it doesn't really make a difference. :s If it's a RDM they have convert, if it's a WHM I guess they probably should.
Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-20 00:05:07
Sounds like a lazy mage but that's just me.
Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-20 00:07:36
Usually 2boxed mage... lol.
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By Asura.Calatilla 2010-05-20 00:07:52
Sylph.Kimble said: Sounds like a lazy mage but that's just me.
Sounds more like a bored healer than a lazy one, cant be lazy if there`s no healing to be done as long as you`re keeping haste up
Sylph.Kozuki
サーバ: Sylph
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By Sylph.Kozuki 2010-05-20 00:08:59
Should try meriting with a mage being played by 1 person alone.
[+]
Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-20 00:10:00
You're just jealous you can't curebot a fulltime-hasso Taru.
Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-20 00:10:46
Cure botting is a skill.
Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-20 00:11:20
ikr
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By Sylph.Ashaaman 2010-05-20 00:13:58
She keeps my ebody war/sam full hasso/retaliation at birds alive np, leave her alone.
Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2010-05-20 00:16:30
Sylph.Ashaaman said: She keeps my ebody war/sam full hasso/retaliation at birds alive np, leave her alone.
I'm not making fun of her :<
Edit: It was more of a "I HAVE A CRAZY/SUICIDAL TARU AND YOU DON'T"... etc.
I've meritted with a real mage, just more times than not it's not.
Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2010-05-20 00:55:41
Leviathan.Niniann said: Leviathan.Duvessa said: I pm'ed you what i use for my dancer's DE's... It's not great but it puts me in the 1100 club for my average WS on the parse charts. I refuse to heal in merit pt's as DNC, cuz I'd just play RDM if i wanted to do that. I do understand how it's useful, though. But damned if I'm not gonna use the hell out of my 5/5 saber dance merits, which render healing impossible lol.
The way i look at it is... If your RDM or WHM/SCH can't heal on their own with BRD, COR, Sanction, and Refresh Gear... Then they should be replaced immediately. Thus freeing the DNC up to spam their yummy dagger WS's :D
Too lazy to argue maffs, but a RDM or WHM/SCH can't mainheal if DD are like... hassoing and stuff. Pretty sure fulltime hasso > DE damage. And I dunno why you don't think curing is fun :< It's boring on a mage, kinda exciting on a DNC. @_@;;
Edit: Cor should be /war or /dnc and meleeing/wsing and where applicable throwing out healing waltz.
Good WHM/SCH shouldn't need any assistance whatsoever. I sub DNC on COR occasionally, but really only in case the WHM somehow gets slept, which I've seen rarely, so most of the time it just goes to waste.
And they should heal fine in a party fulltiming Hasso. I've had a RNG/WAR RNG/WAR (Ridill RNGs, so /SAM pointless) RNG/SAM COR/RNG BRD/NIN WHM/SCH party and we did fine on MP and cleared out top level Nyzul camp (yes, Mamool). Didn't stop to rest once, although it got a little bloodier when we changed to birds.
Edit: er assistance healing, not no ballad/Evoker's
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-05-20 01:01:09
Ragnarok.Flippant said: Good WHM/SCH shouldn't need any assistance whatsoever. I sub DNC on COR occasionally, but really only in case the WHM somehow gets slept, which I've seen rarely, so most of the time it just goes to waste.
And they should heal fine in a party fulltiming Hasso. I've had a RNG/WAR RNG/WAR (Ridill RNGs, so /SAM pointless) RNG/SAM COR/RNG BRD/NIN WHM/SCH party and we did fine on MP and cleared out top level Nyzul camp (yes, Mamool). Didn't stop to rest once, although it got a little bloodier when we changed to birds. Leviathan.Thornyy said: Copypaste from another thread:
Your sample RDM has stone mufflers, stone gorget, poison tasters cape, morrigan's robe, duelist's chapeau. They composure stoneskin, haste, refresh, regen and idle in orochi nodowa. During most convert cycles(8 min 20 secs, full merits of course), regen will be down for 225 seconds and up for 275 seconds. In some cases, it'll be down at start/end and you'll lose a bit of hp, but can overlook this as it favors running out of mp not sustaining it. This amounts to 459 hp. Regen trait and orochi nodowa will get you an additional 334, for 793 total. Now, assuming your perfect RDM has a 1200 convert, you'll need to cure4 yourself once, for 88 mp. This makes the cost of a convert cycle 88 mp, keeping composure cycle seperate. Each composure will use up 40 mp for haste, 40 for refresh, 29 for stoneskin, and 15 for regen. This is 124 mp per 7.5 minutes, or 16.5 mp per minute used. 88 / 8 1/3 = 10.5 mp per minute used. Self-sustainment costs 27 mp per minute. Your DD will require 3 hastes, at 120 mp per 3 minutes. This amounts to 40 mp per minute. Total cost: 67 mp per minute. At 250 exp per kill, 40k/hr is 160 monsters, or a kill every 22.5 seconds. This amounts to 120 mp per minute in dia. Stoneskin -should- cover poison potions as well as reflected dias when recast every 7:30 with gorget/mufflers, though it'll be close. Total cost: 187 mp per minute.
Convert will be 1200 mp every 8:20, which gives you 138 mp per minute. 12/tick with ballads and evokers is 240 mp per minute, grand total: 378 mp per minute regained and 187 spent on static spells. 191 mp per minute to spend on cures.
Assuming each colibri gets 4 hits in, as they have a 6 second delay with elegy and no delay on first swing(~180 damage each) and every 6th colibri gets a pecking flurry(600), you're looking at 820 damage per colibri or 2186 damage per minute to heal with your remaining 191 mp. You can't even make half of that, so it's safe to say that your DD are going to need to seigan, even with all of this perfection. If you're going to mention resting, a dia every 22.5 seconds limits you to one click at a time if you do it immediately after dia(first click is 20 seconds) and requires that you don't have to cast any spells in between. Realistically, this will not amount to anything over time, and you'll also need to cast erase. Wivre and Mamool will do more damage.
I don't give a *** how good your healer is, you're not keeping up with fulltime hasso while diaing every mob.
WHM/SCH's lower MP regeneration is compensated for via arts, stratagems, cureskin, and more cure potency gear, but you're still not able to solo heal without somebody putting up defensive JAs.
EDIT: Woah, slowga. Ninian posted the same thing somewhere between me clicking the thread and posting that >_> Gogo EXP parties.
Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2010-05-20 01:06:03
Well I've never had a RDM keep up on MP...
Also, 40k/hour how D:? Most I've gotten at Nyzul camp is 32k/hour with 5/11 roll the whole time and we were pulling Wivre+colibri from other camp too. I have no idea how much RNG party was meriting, that was a year ago or something.
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By Phoenix.Smileybone 2010-05-20 01:08:00
Quote: Good WHM/SCH shouldn't need any assistance whatsoever. I sub DNC on COR occasionally, but really only in case the WHM somehow gets slept, which I've seen rarely, so most of the time it just goes to waste.
Shouldn't a WHM/SCH be able to wake themselves up since sublimation will more then likely be up? Not that I really have a problem with COR/DNC or anything.
I first want to apologize. This is going to be a fairly long read. I know this thread is going to attract a huge amount of controversy and "trolls," but I ask that you guys please at least read through the information before you spam the thread with useless memes and such.
The goal of this post is to dispel the common belief that dancers are not good additions to merit parties. The math that will be provided is somewhat theoretical, and based off of a traditional merit setup with a COR BRD and RDM (or WHM) for support. This post will mostly observe the damage over time through basic melee attacks only and how the addition of a dancer will greatly improve that output.
For this example, we will assume that everyone is receiving the haste spell (15%), double march (Assuming 20%), haste gear (25%), and the SAMs will be using hasso (10%). The concerned jobs will not be using any weaponskills or spells in this calculation. This is simply a calculation of the damage they do with auto-attack per minute, since using job abilities and weapon skills actually slows down your auto-attack rate slightly per use. Weapon skills are covered at the bottom of this post.
Samurai's base delay with Leviathan's Couse: 480
Samurai's modified delay with aforementioned haste: 144 (480 * 0.3)
Samurai's rate of attack: 1 attack per 2.4 seconds.
Samurai's damage per minute from auto-attack alone at this point assuming a generous average of 175 damage per hit: 4,375
DPM assuming 15% double attack with /war and Brutal Earring: 5,031
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xxxxxx
Now, we will view the same Samurai's attack rate and damage per minute with the addition of a Dancer. The dancer will be utilizing a meritted haste samba, providing 10% additional haste to the party.
Samurai's modified delay with aforementioned haste and added Haste Samba: 96 (480 * 0.2)
Samurai's rate of attack: 1 attack per 1.6 seconds.
Samurai's damage per minute from auto-attack alone: 6,562
DPM assuming 15% double attack with /war and Brutal Earring: 7,547
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xxxxxx
Now to view the dancer's actual damage over time.
Modified delay with dual wield and Suppanomimi assuming combined weapon delay of 411: 328.8
Modified delay with haste: 98.64 (328.8 * 0.3)
Rate of attack: 1.64 seconds per attack phase
Average damage per minute, assuming 63 damage per hit on average, with 3 attacks per phase on average (55% double attack with both hands): 6917.4 (36.6 attack phases a minute * 189 average damage per attack phase from three hits)
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Now for the important part, since the numbers are now available for reference. This section compares the addition of a Dancer to a party instead of adding another Samurai.
Party Setup 1: Sam, Sam, Sam, Brd, Cor, Rdm
Each Sam will theoretically do 5,031 damage per minute with their normal melee attacks at this rate. This nets a total of 15,093 damage per minute.
Party Setup 2: Dnc, Sam, Sam, Brd, Cor, Rdm
The Dnc will theoretically be doing 6,917 damage per minute while each of the two Sams will be doing 7,547 for a total of 22,011 damage per minute.
The concept: Adding a DNC instead of a third SAM will have a larger effect than adding 2 SAMs in its place in basic attack damage. Not only does haste samba mean substantially faster ws's, DNC also comes included with defense and evasion down debuffs to further benefit the party. These benefits were not calculated within this post, as it would require way too much explaining.
Proof, with a "7 person party" which is impossible: Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Brd, Cor, Rdm
4 Sams, 5,031 damage per minute = 20,124 total, compared to a 2 Sam, 1 Dnc party's 22,011 damage per minute.
As you can see, adding the Dnc is the rough equivalent to DoT as replacing it with 2 additional Samurai.
Though DNC itself doesn't do outstanding damage that will defeat a good Sam or War in a parse contest, its significant boost to party members makes a massive difference in party strength. It should, however, be noted that Dnc are quite capable to put up decent numbers, however. It is very easy to hit 1100-1300 DE's consistantly with a properly geared DNC, with occasional spikes as high as 1500-1800 when all 8 hits land from Saber Dance's massive double attack boost. Though a Sam, War, or Drg will still out WS them by a bit, it is still a notable contribution to damage itself, even without the massive increase it gives other jobs.
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xxxxxx
I wasn't going to include this part of the discussion, but oh well. Now we’ll take a very brief look into the effect of DNC on the total number of WS’s used within a minute’s time frame.
This is not entirely accurate, as every time you use a Job Ability, Weapon Skill, or Spell you will be unable to auto attack briefly, thus lowering the amount of attacks netted per minute. It is, however, still a reasonable comparison between the two different parties illustrated above in the body of this post as they both share the benefit of ignoring the said parameter.
Anyways, here are the examples:
3 Samurais without a Dancer: 25 attacks per minute with a 6 hit build would net 4 WS’s per minute from each Samurai, meaning they will total 12 WS’s per minute (3 Sam * 4 WS)
2 Samurais with a Dancer: 37.5 attacks per minute with a 6 hit build would equate to 6 WS’s a minute per Samurai, netting 12 WS’s between the two of them. The Dancer will also, of course, be able to WS as well in this scenario, netting even MORE DoT and spike damage than the alternative (3 Sams).
Conclusion: Dancer adds a whole lot more to a merit party than most people think. Though it takes decent gear to effectively DD as a dancer, it is not too hard to obtain. Almost all of the relic and artifact pieces will have uses in your life as a Dancer, and all are pretty easy to get. The Rapparee Harness is also relatively easy to obtain, as well. Though you are not a heavy DD, and will not outparse a good Samurai, Dragoon, or Warrior, your benefit to the party will be a hugely substantial one. On top of that, you will still be able to maintain pretty recognizable damage dealing potential. Ignoring a DNC's contribution in damage to the party would be a mistake, even though their strongest suit is making everyone else in the party perform substantially better.
This being said, I'm going to go take a nap. I'm sure in a few hours when i wake up this thread will be full of useless replies and meme spam. But at least the information will be out there and maybe fewer people will doubt the potential of a dancer in a merit party.
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