PS3 Limitations
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PS3 Limitations
you guys type too much. couldnt sit through the first page all the way through. i came in here hoping for some ps3 flaming and all i have seen is banter about pc and ps3 specs. if it comes out on 360 thats all well and good. if it doesnt oh well. if ps3 limits the game later on, oh well. tis the price we pay for cross platform. all you 360 haters can suck it. :P good day sirs.
Neokaingel said: Quote: Powerful as a PS3 may be now, over time, it really won't be. The PS3 can easily last more than 10 years as it stands. Console makers designed the current generation for a 10-year lifecycle because prior generations stretched far already. The PS2 still has games coming out - doesn't make it cutting edge, just means it's still within it's lifecycle. Quote: Quote: The advantage of the PC platform for things like this becomes apparent. A decent gaming PC is already more capable than a PS3 or 360. Nope, no current PC build is capable of handling +3.2ghz~4ghz XDR RAM like the PS3 is, and except for ultra high-end uses (eg. military and government application), no one has built anything harnessing the Cell Broadband Engine or XDR RAM either. Eh, Intel's Quickpath, used for i7s, is capable of the same bandwidth in it's current revision, and it'll only get better. Granted, it's twice what the RAM being used actually can do, but the capacity is there. There are a number of other Cell applications than the PS3 too, however, usually not as a general use CPU. Quote: Quote: In 2010 moreso...in, say, 2015...you get the idea. Try 2017. You can already buy a PC that runs loops around the PS3 version of a given game. Granted, it'll likely cost more, and you could argue that it's because "full use" of the PS3 isn't there - but that's still the case. That's not to say that the PS3 is "bad" per se - it's a piece of consumer electronics with a static set of hardware specs. You get a lot for your money, but it's not going to compete with the moving target that is the PC. Quote: Quote: Hard to say when the first instance of that will crop up as we haven't seen how much they've managed to squeeze out of the PS3 yet. While the PS3 is still in its infancy stage, it's 2nd generation of video games are already on the same level as what looks to be X360's final generation. Depends on how MS handles it really. It's also a matter of practicality. Gaming is a business, and taking 7-8 years to finely tune a single game for a platform means a -lot- of development costs to recoup. So while sure, most systems don't see their best games until later on, that shouldn't need to be the necessary path. The PS3 has often gotten the short end of the stick with multi-platform games for one reason or another. From a business perspective, that's not how you want things to be. Quote: Quote: Could hazard guesses based on the limitations of the machine...RAM limitations are certainly going to be a concern long-term. 256MB system + 256MB video, with the ability to use up to 224MB of the system RAM for video...on the PC side already, most gaming cards are 512MB-1GB of video memory, and system RAM is probably 4-6GB now (6GB for DDR3 based systems mostly). 256MB XDR RAM is far faster than any other RAM. There are no RAM limitations compared to any high-end PC builds. The only limiting problem are game designers unable to code specifically to take advantage of the XDR memory. No, the PS3 has a fixed amount of memory (again, the PC is a moving target). It's fast, sure, but if you need to store more than it holds, you're SOL. Meanwhile it's trivial to drop 4-6GB of RAM in a PC, which may "only" do 7-12GB/sec instead of the 25.6GB max of the XDR memory, but can keep a lot more, preventing loading from HDD or disc. Quote: Quote: Relatively, there's already the kind of gap that the PS2 and PC had. Could be that we won't see large textures as a result. Certainly not what will be considered that in 5 years. So we could see the same thing where the PC version could be made to look better, but the consoles wouldn't be able to hack it. Actually, the PS3 being more powerful than any high-end computer 3-7 years later pretty much is groundbreaking. Not to mention the PS3 is the only system capable of displaying what's known as the 4D-Graphics concept at a relevant speed, and that's made possible because of the Cell Broadband Engine and XDR memory. It's kind of not. Like any other console, it's a specialized piece of hardware. Incidentally, even the article presenting the 4D-Graphics mentions that a PC can do it too. 360, perhaps not, but a PC can. Quote: Quote: I don't think we'll see some of the things, like inability to increase inventory or something though. The resource discrepancy is still there, but as the base amounts in question are far larger, and the actual space needed to hold a list of items shouldn't be much different. Instead of trolling the PS3, try educating yourself. Not trolling, just being realistic. Quote: Quote: A ps2 can be used to control chemical missiles and unmanned aircraft but can't let you hold more than 80 items in one place. Who knowswhat limitations ps3 will have :P With a PS3, you can hack into any nuclear silo mainframe and launch a ICBM. Not kidding, that was actually released by a military expert prior to the PS3's release. Just the article was quickly deleted a few days later. You can go to the moon with a fraction of the CPU power a Smartphone offers. A PS3 doesn't do that by itself either. PS3s have been used in hacks, and in research, but a common thread with 'em is that they're used where the Cell's strengths work - or in tasks that are focused to be within what the Cell is best at. Psyence said: The PS3 contains 8 CPUs of 3.2Ghz each. No affordable/commercial PC motherboard has gone that far yet. Out of the 8, one is dedicated to the OS and unavailable to programmers, and 1 is turned off by default, as a backup in case one of the cores has a malfunction (something like that). While true, you also have to figure that Cell SPE's aren't really the same sort of deal as a core on an Intel desktop chip. They're very fast, but very specialized CPUs that are fed data from the controlling PPE, which is more like a normal CPU core. "Technically" an i7 has four Hyperthreaded CPU cores, which actually shows as 8 CPUs to the OS. Realistically though, it's two different architectures, which aren't directly comparable. Quote: At the present time, game programmers simply have no idea what to do with the power of the PS3 cell broadband, and because the Xbox is selling so well (and because it has access to more VRAM) since it's shared), its self defeating to spend millions into making a revolutionary game that will only run on PS3 because it's simply more complicated to develop and it can't be ported to other consoles while making the game be like it was intended to be (FF13 anyone? look at the first demo videos from 4 years ago, and tell me if the new stuff looks anything like it -_-). Somewhat, yeah. The Cell requires a lot on the development end to optimize for. Even if the goal isn't multi-platform, spending an extra year or three tweaking a game for the platform means more and more money spent. Some things, hard to say...early FFXIII footage was probably more on the level of a tech demo. Who knows. We've yet to see the finished product either way. It is sorta true that the "weakest" system has generally done the best, outside of maybe the 16-bit generation - the SNES was clearly the better machine, technically speaking, compared to the Genesis. Isiolia said: Neokaingel said: Quote: Powerful as a PS3 may be now, over time, it really won't be. The PS3 can easily last more than 10 years as it stands. Console makers designed the current generation for a 10-year lifecycle because prior generations stretched far already. The PS2 still has games coming out - doesn't make it cutting edge, just means it's still within it's lifecycle. Not what I'm referring to, I am literally saying there's several years to behold before anything like the PS3 is in a private individual's hands. Quote: Quote: Quote: The advantage of the PC platform for things like this becomes apparent. A decent gaming PC is already more capable than a PS3 or 360. Nope, no current PC build is capable of handling +3.2ghz~4ghz XDR RAM like the PS3 is, and except for ultra high-end uses (eg. military and government application), no one has built anything harnessing the Cell Broadband Engine or XDR RAM either. Eh, Intel's Quickpath, used for i7s, is capable of the same bandwidth in it's current revision, and it'll only get better. Granted, it's twice what the RAM being used actually can do, but the capacity is there. Even according to whitepapers, the i7 is currently maxed out at 3.2ghz, but is standardized at 2.8ghz (not the exact terminology in the white paper I was reading, but does the job). The Cell BE used in the PS3 has the 8th SPE intentionally turned off for backup reasons. Quote: There are a number of other Cell applications than the PS3 too, however, usually not as a general use CPU. Yes, I know. I'm not arguing Cell BE is better in other applications, but it is powerful enough and self-adaptive that it garnered enough interest to be used in future military application. Quote: You can already buy a PC that runs loops around the PS3 version of a given game. Granted, it'll likely cost more, and you could argue that it's because "full use" of the PS3 isn't there - but that's still the case. That's not to say that the PS3 is "bad" per se - it's a piece of consumer electronics with a static set of hardware specs. You get a lot for your money, but it's not going to compete with the moving target that is the PC. Then do it, don't just talk it. Let me ask you this, why are PS3s being used in supercomputer applications? http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/10/ps3_supercomputer# Quote: Depends on how MS handles it really. It's also a matter of practicality. Gaming is a business, and taking 7-8 years to finely tune a single game for a platform means a -lot- of development costs to recoup. So while sure, most systems don't see their best games until later on, that shouldn't need to be the necessary path. The PS3 has often gotten the short end of the stick with multi-platform games for one reason or another. From a business perspective, that's not how you want things to be. Well I'll be the first to say that for one, it's apparently a myth to properly program for the Cell BE. http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160954 http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/51558/developer-ps3-not-hard-to-program-for/ Secondly, Sony has a long-term investment in the Cell BE, and not just Sony but many other technological fielded companies. The Cell BE isn't just about video games or computer simplicities. IBM worked on the Cell BE to revolutionize the computer market, for good. That's not even mentioning the fact that Sony plans on implementing a Cell architecture in all future game console systems. Quote: No, the PS3 has a fixed amount of memory (again, the PC is a moving target). It's fast, sure, but if you need to store more than it holds, you're SOL. Meanwhile it's trivial to drop 4-6GB of RAM in a PC, which may "only" do 7-12GB/sec instead of the 25.6GB max of the XDR memory, but can keep a lot more, preventing loading from HDD or disc. As posted elsewhere (on my blog: http://meijinryuu.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-makes-ps3-best.html): Quote: "Each SPE is composed of a "Synergistic Processing Unit", SPU, and a "Memory Flow Controller", MFC (DMA, MMU, and bus interface). An SPE is a RISC processor with 128-bit SIMD organization for single and double precision instructions. With the current generation of the Cell, each SPE contains a 256 KiB embedded SRAM for instruction and data, called "Local Storage" (not to be mistaken for "Local Memory" in Sony's documents that refer to the VRAM) which is visible to the PPE and can be addressed directly by software. Each SPE can support up to 4 GiB of local store memory. The local store does not operate like a conventional CPU cache since it is neither transparent to software nor does it contain hardware structures that predict which data to load. The SPEs contain a 128-bit, 128-entry register file and measures 14.5 mm2 on a 90 nm process. An SPE can operate on sixteen 8-bit integers, eight 16-bit integers, four 32-bit integers, or four single-precision floating-point numbers in a single clock cycle, as well as a memory operation. Note that the SPU cannot directly access system memory; the 64-bit virtual memory addresses formed by the SPU must be passed from the SPU to the SPE memory flow controller (MFC) to set up a DMA operation within the system address space." Quote: It's kind of not. Like any other console, it's a specialized piece of hardware. What video game console ever came out with actual revolutionary technology, that made it better than the PC of its time? Quote: Incidentally, even the article presenting the 4D-Graphics mentions that a PC can do it too. 360, perhaps not, but a PC can. It mentioned that only a high-end computer is capable of 4d-Graphics, but not even at a competent rate as the PS3. Quote: Not trolling, just being realistic. Then at least start posting links to back up your claim. Quote: You can go to the moon with a fraction of the CPU power a Smartphone offers. A PS3 doesn't do that by itself either. PS3s have been used in hacks, and in research, but a common thread with 'em is that they're used where the Cell's strengths work - or in tasks that are focused to be within what the Cell is best at. Yeah, no ***, really? What I said was a joke. Quote: While true, you also have to figure that Cell SPE's aren't really the same sort of deal as a core on an Intel desktop chip. They're very fast, but very specialized CPUs that are fed data from the controlling PPE, which is more like a normal CPU core. "Technically" an i7 has four Hyperthreaded CPU cores, which actually shows as 8 CPUs to the OS. Realistically though, it's two different architectures, which aren't directly comparable. Each of the 8 cores in the Cell BE is multi-threaded anyhow. Don't get me wrong though, it's not so much the PS3 itself I care about, but the Cell BE that I like. =\
I think the wall of money Se can make for a game will be the main limitation ;x
Cause when u have to align like 1.000.000.000 of buck only for BEGIN a software devellopement who will come out in 4years... Quote: Not what I'm referring to, I am literally saying there's several years to behold before anything like the PS3 is in a private individual's hands. Maybe in theory, but in practice what the PS3 gives you, in-hand, right now, is a gaming experience basically on par with the 360 and a Blu-Ray player. At least, that's what the one in my living room does. My midrange PC from last year is more capable as a gaming machine in that it actually runs anything I want at 1920x1200, with higher graphics settings, etc. Quote: Even according to whitepapers, the i7 is currently maxed out at 3.2ghz, but is standardized at 2.8ghz (not the exact terminology in the white paper I was reading, but does the job). The Cell BE used in the PS3 has the 8th SPE intentionally turned off for backup reasons. I was referring to the data pathway between the CPU and the RAM. Which I figured was your point. Both are capable of 25.6GB/sec. i7s have been overclocked past 4Ghz, so I'm not sure what the CPU clock has to do with it. Quote: Then do it, don't just talk it. Let me ask you this, why are PS3s being used in supercomputer applications? http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/10/ps3_supercomputer# There have been a lot of CPUs used in supercomputing applications, including basically anything you'd find in a desktop PC. The Cell is -great- for limited-scope, specialized processing. No argument there. But that's the catch, it's made for single precision floating point above anything else. When Altivec first hit the scene you had a similar fuss. Remember Apple's old Ad campaign with G4s being illegal to export due to "supercomputer" status? Remember how a G5 cluster at Virginia Tech made ripples on the supercomputer scene? Hell, people made clusters of XBoxes because they were cheap power... You'll note that there's also talk of utilizing GPUs for specialized apps like that because, like the Cell, they're -very- fast for a narrow range of operations. When you're purpose is research computing where you just need to run an insane number of iterations of an equation, then something like the Cell is great. That + performance + cheap PS3s = interest in research computing. Quote: As posted elsewhere (on my blog: http://meijinryuu.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-makes-ps3-best.html): It's on wikipedia as well. The Cell is capable of accessing more memory - doesn't mean there's a RAM slot in there for you to use. It's come up for people using it for research purposes too, as it's been mentioned as a limiting factor. Quote: What video game console ever came out with actual revolutionary technology, that made it better than the PC of its time? It's always the case that you have a specialized piece of hardware versus a more general one. The N64 had better 3D graphics - at least in some ways - than most PCs at the time. GPUs are in some ways superior to CPUs in PCs now too - matter of application. Quote: It mentioned that only a high-end computer is capable of 4d-Graphics, but not even at a competent rate as the PS3. At the time of the article...who knows now. Last I saw PC gaming was moving more towards real-time raytracing. Quote: Then at least start posting links to back up your claim. You're already copying from the Wiki, which is mostly where I'm looking too. Quote: Don't get me wrong though, it's not so much the PS3 itself I care about, but the Cell BE that I like. =\ It's interesting tech for sure, it's just not God in CPU form. Has it's pros and cons. I declare Isolia the winner, now both of you shut-up.
I use my ps3 as a book holder and to throw at my neighbors dog when he's barking too much. ;)
Garlend said: id give it 2 years, thats how long it was for xi when SE started spowting that ps2 limitation BS. I guess, technology is MUCH different then it was back then though so I don't forsee the same problems the PS2's "White Engine" had 
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[30 days between previous and next post]Well seeing as how FF13 can achieve near pre-rendered CGI quality in realtime I think the graphics and limitations are the last thing you should be worried about.
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oh just to bump (at least not necro)
Read This! So apparently with the new Firmware upgrade PS3's are turning into bricks!
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[40 days between previous and next post]This is the perfect time to plug some Wipeout Pulse/Wipeout HD picts! See em here folks! http://gallery.me.com/mestinkbad#100154&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=0
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