Smacked Around?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Rune Fencer » Smacked Around?
Smacked Around?
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By jalexan4 2014-02-21 01:43:21  
Ok, so my both my RUN and DNC have decent gear. Decided to try something out tonight so I bought two Transcendent Scorpion pops and headed out to Ceizak. I want a fun solo class because I get stuck on COR in parties so it was a toss up between RUN and DNC. Just got a Crobaci +2 today for my RUN so I was feeling pretty cocky.

Dancer went first and was able to keep saber dance up most of the time because he would rarely remove a shadow unless it was a tp move. Took the whole twenty minutes but got him down to 32% before he depopped.

Next the RUN went. Buffed up, called my trusts, popped the Scorpion and proceeded to get the hell beat out of me. I managed to hang in there long enough to get him to 85% but he was landing at least 70% of his hits when Battuta was down.

I know DNC is a solo class but they have a B+ in Evasion, B in Parry, Tactical Parry I, and Evasion III. We have a A+ in Parry, B+ in Evasion, Tactical Parry III and Inquartata. Not to mention Battuta, Phalanx, etc...

Is the Evasion Bonus III that big of a difference? That it avoids more damage with a B+ rating than an A+ Parry, Tactical Parry and Inquartata can? I mean, this was not even a close draw between the two. At this point, there is just no way we can tank anything, just take away the tactical parry and give us some attack bonuses or something... or fix the parry mechanic.

I really love playing RUN but this kind of pissed me off. I understand everything equal the DNC will outlive me because of the cures, it is a solo class, but it isn't anywhere close. Im getting smacked around on RUN and eating popcorn while soloing with DNC. Is there some type of mechanic I am not aware of? Why is my DNC avoiding so much more damage than RUN? Both were in Eminence so I could keep them as equal as possible. Thoughts?
 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-02-21 01:56:43  
Yeah, Evasion Bonus 3 is that big of a difference, it adds 35 evasion plus all the evasion gear DNC has available to it. Parry rating is not going to close that gap at all. I never played RUN, so I don't know its builds, but I was under the impression it wasn't an eva tank.
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By jalexan4 2014-02-21 02:03:22  
No, your right. I was wearing the same gear. I don't think it was meant to be an eva tank but shouldn't an A+ in Parry, a Tactical Parry III and Iquartata avoid more damage than Evasion Bonus III on a B+ Rating? Both jobs were in the same gear so I could get a good measure. Both Evasion and Parry are equally merited as well.


Edit: Since I was subbing DNC I also had two Evasion Bonuses we well with the same evasion rating as DNC. DNC as main job has 1 more eva bonus and lacks the other things listed above. I really would have thought RUN would have avoided alot more damage.
 Shiva.Alistrianna
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By Shiva.Alistrianna 2014-02-21 14:43:40  
Tactical Parry does nothing to improve your parry rate. It just gives you TP for parrying.
 Shiva.Spathaian
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By Shiva.Spathaian 2014-02-21 15:19:19  
Things to keep in mind:

1) Parrying, while much more effective on RUN, still has a pretty terrible proc rate.

2) DNC can deal damage a lot better than RUN can, especially given the fact that they have the option to sub WAR or NIN in solo situations where as RUN is limited to things like DNC, WHM, SCH, or RDM in order be able to effectively cure themselves. This means a DNC will likely go a lot further than a RUN can when it comes to actually killing something in a timely manner.

3)You're attempting to use a job described as a "magical tank" on a mob that is primarily physical.
 Bismarck.Demitrious
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By Bismarck.Demitrious 2014-02-22 08:54:52  
If you give a RUN some Tactical support then it can in fact Tank a Physical Mob. The Down side is that you still can die fast from said mob. I have Tanked some Physical type mobs in the past on RUN and have learned that you really need a set that boost your Eva. Which is kinda hard to do on a RUN since your gear is limited. It would have been nice thou if SE gave RUN Protect 5 just on princable alone. Even the mage type mobs can hit hard. and Pro 4 doesn't always cut it.
 Bahamut.Ascadia
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By Bahamut.Ascadia 2014-02-22 09:30:33  
This sounds like a gear issue moreso than an ability difference between the jobs, though Dnc's recovery abilities are vastly superior. Use /checkparam <me> on both your Dnc and Run's tanking sets to see exactly what kind of evasion difference there is between the two. You didn't mention what kind of gear you were using for either job, but Run's 119 AF set offers a ton of evasion. The feet alone give 92.

This is my Run's current tanking set:

ItemSet 319986

It isn't perfect by any means, but it allows me to comfortably tank mobs up to Difficult with /dnc in all SKCs with little to no Whm support. Low-tier delve NMs (including scorp) are horribly inaccurate as well.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2014-02-22 11:03:31  
Bismarck.Demitrious said: »
Even the mage type mobs can hit hard. and Pro 4 doesn't always cut it.

Emboldening Protect is a valid option and causes Protect IV to be about equal (slightly better, actually) to a Protect V.


Quote:
1) Parrying, while much more effective on RUN, still has a pretty terrible proc rate.

RUN's parry rate should be about 30% on something like this. That's hardly terrible.

That said, it's certainly true that Dancer is the superior damage dealer in a solo situation.
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2014-02-22 11:25:16  
Yeah, it was the gear. I was intially in pdt gear and eminence but I went back with a straight eva setup and Regen alone was enough to keep me up with the scorpion. I wasn't able to dish out enough dps to down him in the timeframe but I got him to about 40% before he depopped. His first TP move wiped out Kupipi right off the bat and Joachim and Adayme were the only ones throughout the fight. I know this is comparing apples to oranges in a sense but I later took him into Yummys WKR as /dnc. I didn't mind the magic damage but the eva gear wasn't enough, obviously. I kind of hurt my feelings to see the PLD tanking it alone while I was faceplanted. I know we aren't on par with PLDs but I can keep hoping... one day. I can't wait for the day when people stop saying "OMG we got an Aegis here!" and start saying, "Woot, a RUN just showed up!". Lol, I know... wishful thinking.
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 Ragnarok.Azryel
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By Ragnarok.Azryel 2014-02-22 11:36:44  
I know this is totally unrelated, but this is the first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread: GWAR's Slap U Around lol

YouTube Video Placeholder
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By darthmaull 2014-02-22 15:03:19  
The best way I've found to tank with RUN is with /nin. /dnc just can't do it. You will get hit pretty frequently as you have found. The new AF relic legs makes this sub even better. I really feel that because just about all the RUNs that I've come across want this job to DD it's creating this stigma that RUN cannot tank. This recent update has been great for RUN in my eyes. There are so many spells and job abilities available to RUN that it makes it very hard for a mob to take you down in a group setting if you have a competent WHM for those oh S#1t moments. Also with the unannounced mp replenishment with Vivacious Pulse, this job has basically been fixed. Problem is the near sightedness of the player base and the fact that no one plays this job as it's main so they are mainly following others with /rdm, /whm, /dnc and /Sam as the only subs and play style for this job. /nin is not an offensive sub at all. You will be out damaged by another Run with the other subs even if your gear is a little better. I've tried it and I lost Everytime on a parser but I was able to hold hate mainly until the mnk in my group decided to go ape s#1t and try to steal hate. But that was before the update so that may not be possible now.

I just wanted to give my take on RUN so far because when I saw this thread it made me shake my head because /dnc to tank is pure fail.
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2014-02-22 16:03:33  
Ok, yeah, you are right Darth. I've been coming back and forth to RUN for a main for a while but I always end back up on my warrior. I wasn't sure if /dnc or /nin would be ideal. I've tried /rdm and /whm but the interruptions are killer. I was torn between /dnc and /nin. I settled on /dnc because of the cures. I really wasn't sure if my regens could keep me up alone. With getting hit so much in higher level content I wasn't sure if there was a point in the shadows. Alot of things seem to ignore utsusemi and I was worried that they would be continually stripped. Now, this is all solo. The only time I've actually helped to tank on it was with Yummy. I was receiving cures along with the PLD and you are right, I think the shadows would have been alot better than /dnc. That is most likely why I ended up faceplanted while the PLD kept tanking away. The only issue with this is without Provoke from /war are our abilities and foil enough to maintain decent hate?

Another problem that I think is happening and you briefly mentioned it Darth, is that not many people main this job. Because of this I think that when they/we do play it, we are using the pieces that we are getting from our other jobs. In other words, how many 119 RUNs are out there. Without really sinking time into getting a RUNs gear on par with someone that mains PLD I don't think we really know what RUN is capable of. Are there any 119 RUNs out there? If so, the two sets of gear we have seem to be awesome. How are you max gear RUNs doing out there? I would be interested to hear from you guys. Just like I've done I think alot of people are basing their opinions of RUN on sub-optimal gear which is wrong. If PLDs tried to tank endgame in low level gear I bet we would be hearing some of the same complaints. So, in that respect, shame on me, lol.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-22 16:16:10  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
The only issue with this is without Provoke from /war are our abilities and foil enough to maintain decent hate?
Provoke is a extremely weak enmity tool. And RUN has the most ridiculous array of enmity actions. If a RUN is having enmity issues, it's cause they're dead.
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By darthmaull 2014-02-22 16:39:41  
Yea I agree with Martel. I don't hold hate with Provoke or through DD. It's all spells and abilities. And now since the update DDers lose hate more easily. The shadows help you to maintain hate. You have 3 sets with /nin. What also helps is Batutta. If you are tanking one mob, use it right away. Solidify hate and you get a few WS off as well due to the added TP return. Use Swipe, wait a bit then use Lunge. Also get the new Relic AF legs. It makes it so you can almost have shadows up all the time. This update has really helped me with the way I play RUN and I ONLY use it as a tanking job. DD RUN is too weak, use something else if you want to DD only.
 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2014-02-22 16:49:57  
Nah, I have a WAR if I want to DD. I want a tank only, not even bothering with all of the dd gearsets that have been posted.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-22 17:09:59  
for reference, here's a list of RUN ja enmity values.
Code
Action		CE	VE
SP1		    1800 7200
Vallation	450	900
Valliance	450	900
Embolden	160	320
Swordplay	160	320
Pflug		450	900
Gambit		640	1280
Liement		450	900
One For All	160	320
Batutta		450	900
Rayke		640	1260
Runes		40	320
Foil		320	880
Flash		180	1280

Provoke is 1/1800.

RUN has an enmity arsenal that PLD envies. Although RUN could use a better enmity+ gear selection. And a way to not get flattened by heavy physical dmg so easily.
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By Daemythos 2014-02-23 02:14:25  
Forgive my ignorance but whats the CE and VE stand for?

Also, I'll have to try out the /nin sub.

I'm somewhat new back to the game and I really enjoy RUN, but I want to play it as a tank, not as a DD, there are other jobs better suited I think.

For those that do partake in such a roll, what rotations are you using to keep hate?

I found that the nature of the game has changed so much that you really don't see party play until the end of the game, which is unfortunate. I know how to play RUN in a solo capacity but almost no idea in 6 man or more content.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-23 02:23:36  
CE: Cumulative Enmity. Enmity that stays unless you take dmg, are enfeebled(-80 CE per), or lose shadows(-25 CE per shadow lost.)

VE: Volatile enmity. Drains away over time at a rate of 60 per second. Nothing will make it decay faster or slower.

So, if you use provoke, after 30 seconds all you have is the 1 CE left.

EDIT:A note on enfeebles. They don't have to land. Just the act of them being cast on you makes you lose some enmity. Also, shadows won't prevent that. If a mob cast sleep on you, and a shadow takes it, you'd lose 105 CE. 80 CE for the enfeeb and 25 for the shadow.

Likewise, non-damaging player actions do not need to land to generate their enmity. Although the enmity from most enfeebles has be nerfed into the abyss.
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 Asura.Slugman
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By Asura.Slugman 2014-02-23 21:19:43  
Hate mechanics in this game is like watching the scene from monsters U with the librarian. Just sayin.
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By darthmaull 2014-03-01 17:07:04  
Just for shits and giggles I just tried that scorpion. Got it down to 38% before it depopped. I used basically 2 trusts because Kupipi died on the second Wild Rage it did. Only had Trion and Valaineral. Scorpion was on me the entire time. Easy solo. Was in trouble once but popped Battuta and Vivacious Pulse and was right back in business. 10 more mins and that NM would have been dead.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-03-01 18:42:59  
Quote:
RUN has an enmity arsenal that PLD envies. Although RUN could use a better enmity+ gear selection. And a way to not get flattened by heavy physical dmg so easily.

None of those holds a candle to melee damage though. FFXI's biggest issue is that "tanks" have crap for CE generation. Neither PLD, NIN nor RUN can generate the comparative CE/VE of a MNK, WAR, DRK, DRG, SAM, or anyone else for that matter, going auto-attack -> WS. Even just auto-attack alone will pull hate, eventually. And to be quite frank, SE will never be able to fix it without redesigning the entire enmity system but that also brings up an even bigger issue. Holding hate and taking 0 damage do absolutely nothing when everyone else is dead. This is the issue we currently face with AA's, they are so obscenely overpowered that melee's get tore up just standing next to them. We've even reverted to a strategy that abuses decoy shot to ensure the boss's are flattening everyone.