Windower Won't Start! - Windower V4.3 And The Creators Update

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Windower won't start! - Windower v4.3 and the Creators Update
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By Aeyela 2017-04-29 16:11:37  
Asura.Saevel said: »
...

Windows 10 has deprecated support for DirectX 8 and 9, FFXI is a DirectX 8 game and DX9 is the compatibility layer for DX8 on NT6.5 and higher. Windows 10 is fine for those who use it, but it's really really bad at legacy applications, this is a known thing.

Windows 10 has excellent legacy support. Most of the problems with Windows and backwards compatibility comes with those older games relying on old, discontinued or obsolete drivers that manufacturers are not upgrading anymore. Most does not mean "all", and I'd ask you to be sure you fully comprehend that part. Don't take what I am saying to be a "Windows is fantastic and you're wrong!" argument because it is not. Simply, that a lot of the negative stigma surrounding Windows 10 is objectively unfounded.

You can repeat "Windows 10 has no legacy support" all you want but it doesn't make it true. Plenty of developers have no problem with it, including the Windower guys until now. Let's not knee jerk assume that all these problems are caused by what you assume they are.

Asura.Saevel said: »
In other words, if you were right then Windower 4.3 wouldn't be broke. Windower 4.3 is broke.

I'm having a very difficult time trying to ascertain where I said anything that remotely supports this strawman of yours.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Case in point, the Windower development team just broke Windower for everyone *not* on Windows 10, by trying to make it compatible with Windows 10. They probably didn't intend for it to happen, but since absolutely zero testing happened on anything before Windows 10, well breakage happened.

You're coming to preemptive conclusions on what the cause of these problems are based on one error message. If you'll look through this thread there's seven different (and unrelated to one another) error messages on the last couple of pages alone.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-29 16:18:17  
Aeyela said: »
Windows 10 has excellent legacy support


Conversation end right there.

One of the focus's behind Windows 10 was to remove legacy code that was insecure and difficult to support for MS.

So yeah "You're holding it wrong"

https://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-holding-th/

https://thenextweb.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/06/zAJ0y.jpg
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By Rife 2017-04-29 16:25:20  
Take the petty squabbles elsewhere, this thread is more important than you two
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By Yeno7 2017-04-29 16:30:09  
main issue I have is that windower wont even go to POL, is not about WIN7,Shista,Crapple or any other lolwindows that is not 7 the problem here.
I have try to unistall reinstall, copy my windower settings and files from my laptop and bring them over to the desktop, I even copy my brother's folder from his and still same thing, Windower wont start or go to POL to start game :/, and im out of options here, which I dont loss much xept 2-3 pluggins. I dont depend on Gearswap or any other of that autonomos crap a lot of ppl use from what I see >_>;
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-29 16:30:17  
Problem solved.

Yeno7 said: »
main issue I have is that windower wont even go to POL, is not about WIN7,Shista,Crapple or any other lolwindows that is not 7 the problem here.
I have try to unistall reinstall, copy my windower settings and files from my laptop and bring them over to the desktop, I even copy my brother's folder from his and still same thing, Windower wont start or go to POL to start game :/, and im out of options here, which I dont loss much xept 2-3 pluggins. I dont depend on Gearswap or any other of that autonomos crap a lot of ppl use from what I see >_>;

Redownload / reinstall the Windower executable and let them download everything again. Get your hands on the 4.2 hook.dll and 4.2 launcher and block the IP address I posted earlier. You can the play fine until they sort the issues out.
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By Aeyela 2017-04-29 16:32:44  
Yeno7 said: »
main issue I have is that windower wont even go to POL, is not about WIN7,Shista,Crapple or any other lolwindows that is not 7 the problem here.
I have try to unistall reinstall, copy my windower settings and files from my laptop and bring them over to the desktop, I even copy my brother's folder from his and still same thing, Windower wont start or go to POL to start game :/, and im out of options here, which I dont loss much xept 2-3 pluggins. I dont depend on Gearswap or any other of that autonomos crap a lot of ppl use from what I see >_>;

What's happening when you try opening it? Nothing happens? Or some kind of error?
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By Bismarck.Dew 2017-04-29 16:46:41  
Now with another supposed fix from last update windower crashes at the loading Playonline viewer. Seems like the problems just getting worse instead of being better with the fixes. This is on windows 7 64 bit. Can't even get into pol anymore with windower.
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By Aeyela 2017-04-29 16:48:54  
I'm curious if everyone having problems with Windower can load vanilla PoL fine?
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By Bismarck.Dew 2017-04-29 16:50:11  
Aeyela said: »
I'm curious if everyone having problems with Windower can load vanilla PoL fine?
Just tried w/o windower and it works fine.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-04-29 16:57:24  
Aeyela said: »
I'm curious if everyone having problems with Windower can load vanilla PoL fine?

My vanilla version loaded just fine, but the lag was so bad that I had to shut it down. Whatever video settings Windower was using to overwrite vanilla's settings is creating a spillover effect so neither of them work.
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By Sylph.Ice 2017-04-29 16:58:43  
Anyone able to provide a link for the 4.2 launcher? All my friends updated so can't bum it from them. Replacing hook in normal windower nor dev windower works any more.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-04-29 17:01:08  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Aeyela said: »
I'm curious if everyone having problems with Windower can load vanilla PoL fine?

My vanilla version loaded just fine, but the lag was so bad that I had to shut it down. Whatever video settings Windower was using to overwrite vanilla's settings is creating a spillover effect so neither of them work.

Edit: On a side that note that may or may not be coincidental, FFXIV was running at the same time and, even after shutting down FFXI, it was lagging so bad it had to be shut down too. Something is freaking out my video card so I'll have to reboot and see how it goes.
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By Asura.Sesono 2017-04-29 17:18:28  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Problem solved.

Yeno7 said: »
main issue I have is that windower wont even go to POL, is not about WIN7,Shista,Crapple or any other lolwindows that is not 7 the problem here.
I have try to unistall reinstall, copy my windower settings and files from my laptop and bring them over to the desktop, I even copy my brother's folder from his and still same thing, Windower wont start or go to POL to start game :/, and im out of options here, which I dont loss much xept 2-3 pluggins. I dont depend on Gearswap or any other of that autonomos crap a lot of ppl use from what I see >_>;

Redownload / reinstall the Windower executable and let them download everything again. Get your hands on the 4.2 hook.dll and 4.2 launcher and block the IP address I posted earlier. You can the play fine until they sort the issues out.

Can you provide links or upload the files to any file host please?
like tinyupload/dropbox or something. Would be much appreciated.

Win 8.1 here - Windower doesn't start POL. (and the last update was supposed to fix Win8x probs... i never had "ANY", now i have the worst)
Vanilla is working just fine, Alt-Tab working as intended. But i really need a few addons/plugins. Like timestamp, distance, tparty andwhatnot...
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By Bismarck.Dew 2017-04-29 17:22:29  
Had to block windower from updating and get hook and launcher from ls member that didn't relog and get force update that broke everything. New one wasn't even able to load pol. Not going to update it till things get fixed this is just silly. Was anything tested on dev version before this was pushed out?
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By Ragnarok.Kenshi 2017-04-29 17:27:14  
Instead to use host file to block ip, you can block the windower launcher on your firewall, thats what I did to be able to play.
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By Yeno7 2017-04-29 17:29:05  
I like Rife's Idea of blocking IP for not autoupdate windower :D will try in a few and let you know how it went!
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By Odin.Drakenv 2017-04-29 19:11:59  
Hmm tried this and it still crashes one of my characters after logging on boo
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By Staleyx 2017-04-29 21:24:09  
Have a friend whos windower is crashing if a macro is hit twice. Anyone else having this issue? Will try having them downgrade versions.
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-04-29 21:49:31  
for some strange reason the X to close windower is no longer click-able also sound seems always on since the update...

(went back into SE FFXI Config and made sure sound always on wasn't set)
 
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-04-29 23:04:35  
First off I'd like to thank the Windower team for making all of this even possible over the years. Secondly people seriously need to relax. I mean this is free, and some iirc don't even play at all anymore that code etc. Just is pretty horrible the backlash I am seeing from this community. ***will get fixed, it always does.
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By Fenrir.Aisaka 2017-04-29 23:38:44  
Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
First off I'd like to thank the Windower team for making all of this even possible over the years. Secondly people seriously need to relax. I mean this is free, and some iirc don't even play at all anymore that code etc. Just is pretty horrible the backlash I am seeing from this community. ***will get fixed, it always does.

It's pretty understandable that your average person using the live windower branch would be upset they can't play the game through their normally stable branch.

Fenrir.Caiir said: »
Certain keybinds no longer work (such as Windows key). This is because you are no longer in a technical fullscreen mode when the game is open, so Windows is handling the keypress. This is likely to remain as is, but there are workarounds as posted in this thead. Apologies for the inconvenience. It is possible it will be looked into once all issues are squashed.

Is there any reason to be using SE's windowed mode over what Windower was doing before? So far that is making Windower less useful and I haven't heard any benefits. If it's bringing compatibility or hiding more issues than I think it is, that's great, but just from what I've seen I don't really like it so far.
Willing to wait while things get ironed out, but I really want the functionality with the windows key back. Been playing far too many years with my bind setup and it's very annoying to change those habit and have less keys to use.

Appreciate all the effort going into Windower, wouldn't be able to play at all without you guys.
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By Fenrir.Caiir 2017-04-30 02:35:43  
Fenrir.Aisaka said: »
It's pretty understandable that your average person using the live windower branch would be upset they can't play the game through their normally stable branch..

I suppose that is reasonable. That said, keep in mind that this topic was made 3 weeks ago, and we've been running changes on our development branch over the course of that time and gathering feedback from users and responding with changes. The current version was pushed live only once we were no longer receiving reports of errors or issues, and even then, we gave it a few days.
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By Iryoku 2017-04-30 04:56:39  
Various People said:
It crashes
It's been stated already, but it bears repeating. We can't fix anything that we can't reproduce, and don't have a crash dump for. A crash dump is not a guarantee that a fix will happen, but nothing can be fixed without one.

I repeat, if you do not post a crash dump, then we cannot fix it!


Fenrir.Aisaka said: »
Is there any reason to be using SE's windowed mode over what Windower was doing before? So far that is making Windower less useful and I haven't heard any benefits.
This requires a pretty lengthy explanation, but here goes my best shot at explaining this as simply as I can.

Unfortunately Windower 4 is based on a codebase that is somewhere around 14 years old. The project has passed through many hands. Some of these people wrote very good code, others... did not. All of these people had different ideas about how to do things, and used very different code styles.

We have found multiple instances where two or more completely different code paths are used to achieve exactly the same thing. Did you know that Windower has not one but two completely different ways to run a command on a new thread? Well, both @ and ! will do exactly that, but they do so using entirely different code paths. It took us something like 4 hours to untangle the code and come to the conclusion that both of them do in fact do exactly the same thing. Ultimately, it has become very difficult to reason about how various internal components within Hook interact with each other.

When we first learned that the function hooking library used by Windower, the one it had been using since the very first release of 1.0, was broken in the preview builds of Redstone 2 (what would later be known as the Windows 10 Creators' Update), I initially tried to accelerate my work on Windower 5. Windower 5 is a complete rewrite that uses its own custom hooking library, and therefor isn't affected. However, it became clear that it was not going to be possible to get enough of the project completed to be a viable solution.

I want to make it clear that this is not Microsoft's fault. The techniques that are being used here are not "normal". Code injection and rewriting machine code to redirect function calls are the kinds of things viruses do, not normal programs. These techniques generally make use of various undocumented or unsupported quirks of the Win32 API, and Microsoft is under no obligation to keep software that does these things functional. The fact that everything has worked as well as it has for the last 14 years speaks volumes about Microsoft's commitment to backward compatibility.

But I digress. At this point I began the daunting task of replacing this broken library. I had already written a new one for Windower 5, so it shouldn't be that hard to just swap out the broken one for the new one, right? If only things were so easy...

When I wrote the library for Windower 5, I had no intention of it ever being used in Windower 4. I wrote it using features from the newest C++ standards, C++11 and C++14 (these are years, not version numbers). And this brings us to the first problem. For as long as I have been involved with the project, Windower has only been able to build using the Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Pro compiler. This compiler only supports C++98. When I attempted to import the project into Visual Studio 2017 (which has Microsoft's newest C++ compiler) I was greeted with about 10,000, yes ten thousand, compiler errors. In total it took me about 2 days to work through and fix all of these errors.

When I was done fixing compiler errors. I was finally able to delete the old library and copy in the code from v5. Getting everything to build from here took another 4 hours or so, then finally... the moment of truth. Up until now I had absolutely no way to test any of my work. I just had to keep working, and hope that I didn't break anything. I clicked run, and everything seemed to work. But it was late, and I needed to sleep. I checked my changes in to Git, and handed a build off to Byrth, who got various people to test it.

When I checked IRC in the morning it turned out that things had not all gone according to plan. There were a lot of problems. Some things flat out crashed, others caused the game to deadlock. Arcon fixed most of these over the night, but there was one bug that he couldn't figure out: alt-tab didn't work.

We tried everything we could think of. We poured over all of the code. We found and fixed dozens of obscure, long-standing bugs. We even went as far as to comment out every piece of code related to keyboard input that we could find. But no matter what we tried, we could not get alt-tab to work. Finally, out of desperation I tried to use SE's Windowed mode, and... it worked. Alt-tab worked just like it's supposed to.

We knew that people had reported performance issues with SE's windowed mode, but we had little choice. Shipping Windower with a broken alt-tab was simply not an option, and we do not have the manpower to maintain yet another code base on top of 4.2, plugins and the addon repository. The scope of the changes required to get 4.3 working were simply too great to keep it in sync with 4.2. We had to move forward using SE's windowed mode.

With some digging (and a tip from an anonymous source) we were able to track down the most egregious performance killers in SE's code and patch around them. With the help of testers we were able to find and fix most of the rest of the serious bugs. (Believe me the stuff you guys have talked about in this thread is just the tip of the iceberg.)

At this point, we had fixed all of the known issues at the time, and we decided we should push 4.3 out on the dev build channel. Byrth wrote up the OP for this thread, and you can see what has unfolded since then.

Quite a few bugs were found and fixed on the dev builds. When we stopped receiving reports of new issues, and we were reasonably confident that we had fixed everything, we pushed the changes to live. And then the ***storm began...

To everyone here who is complaining about the lack of testing, please remember that we're a very small team. We don't have the resources to do large scale testing. We rely on people playing on the dev builds to find bugs for us, because there's only so much a few guys on the internet with a couple computers can do. 4.3 was up for weeks on the dev update stream, and we only pushed it out on the stable update stream once people stopped reporting bugs.

If you want well tested, stable releases, we need people to play on the dev builds. You can have both installed at the same time. If something breaks on dev, report it (with crash dumps!) and fall back to playing on the stable builds while we fix it. If you're not willing to do that, then it's not really fair to tell us that we didn't test thoroughly enough if some bugs slip through the cracks.
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By Iryoku 2017-04-30 04:57:23  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Windows XP is obviously beyond saving but Windows 7 is still your majority platform.
This is false, we do not have a majority platform, and the closest platform to having a majority is Windows 10.

Operating Systems

10: 49.55%
7: 30.95%
8 & 8.1: 17.09% (8: 12.33%; 8.1: 4.76%)
XP: 1.23%
Vista: 1.18%


Asura.Saevel said: »
Hell Windows 10 doesn't even support DX8 (which is FFXI), it's barely emulated through DX9 that's then emulated and run on DX11 or 12 depending. This is why FFXI is so unstable on Windows 10. MS's last *beta* for that broke a bunch of legacy stuff. The only way to get FFXI running in a remotely safe fashion on Windows 10 would be to do a wrapper that converted it's DX8 calls into DX11/12, which is a whole other beast of an issue.
Pretty much everything in this paragraph is either flat out wrong, or very misinformed, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how these subsystems actually work.


Asura.Saevel said: »
Windows 10 has deprecated support for DirectX 8 and 9
I just checked the documentation for Direct3D 9 on MSDN; they don't mention anything about it being deprecated.


Asura.Saevel said: »
Case in point, the Windower development team just broke Windower for everyone *not* on Windows 10, by trying to make it compatible with Windows 10. They probably didn't intend for it to happen, but since absolutely zero testing happened on anything before Windows 10, well breakage happened.
We did in fact test on at least Windows 10, 7 and 8.1 before pushing these changes live. Do not assume that just because something breaks for you that it breaks for everyone, our data suggests otherwise. In fact, for many people on Windows 8 and 8.1, 4.3 finally fixes their long-standing crash-on-load issues that prevented them from using Windower at all before.


Asura.Sesono said: »
Yeah seems like its too much to come up with a simple update or w/e the heck they did... just casues problems over problems.
Is there no testing involved when you change things so drastically?
I'm seriously angry that we didnt even have a choice to take that update (lol - more like a "break that ***") ...

However atm Windower is not useable as it is simply not working at all. No Error Message given thus nothing to look into - it just doesnt work.

frustrating (and i thought ashita was bad^^)
These builds were publicly available for approx. two weeks before being pushed out on the stable update stream, we fixed everything that was reported by people who actually took the initiative to test things before pushing these changes out. If you're upset, fine. That is your right, but the ad hominem attacks are not appreciated.

There are exactly three people working on Windower's Launcher and Hook. Only one of us still plays Final Fantasy XI at all. We all have jobs and other obligations outside of our work on this project. We do not get paid for this, and we do not accept donations. In fact, maintaining Windower costs us money. We work on Windower in our spare time because we enjoy it. While, I can't speak for the others, reading posts like these sucks all of the enjoyment out of working on Windower for me. They make me wonder why I bother doing this for a game I don't even play any more.
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By Rife 2017-04-30 05:13:09  
When I crash its not producing a crash report.

All I can say is its on windows 10, 64 bit. Its crashing when restored from being minimized. Using basic intel graphics card
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By Bismarck.Vespertaru 2017-04-30 05:14:05  
Iryoku, with Vista being so low on that list of people using, does that mean it won't be supported anymore like XP? (even though that's not why xp is not supported anymore)
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By Odin.Horu 2017-04-30 05:32:21  
I appreciate all the work you guys do and hope that you all will continue the great work you have been doing.

I am curious about your comment on the dev build function.

Personally i'd like to contribute in what way i can, However when i read on your official page that (When i high lighted it) that "This version is not supported", i wasn't entirely sure what that ment and i thought maybe it required a certain level of programing skill to use it, so i left it.

For a average player, would using a dev build assist over all and we just submit w/e bug reports arise or is it indeed only ment for highe end programmers?

Once again, thank you and the team for your awesome work not just for now but for all these years
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