Paralyze Proc

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Red Mage » Paralyze proc
Paralyze proc
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 12:50:38  
Valefor.Integral said:
lol why all the convert hate? with good gear and 8/8 enfeeb merits those accuracy ones are helping you a lot less than knocking a substantial chunk of time off convert


Please, stop being so naive. 8/8 Enfeebling merits and good gear doesn't win the internet. It takes way more than that on anything worth soloing.
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 Odin.Blazza
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-10-29 12:59:31  
I would take all the "facts" about para II with a big ol' grain o' salt. Paralyze has such a random proc rate that there's no way possible to test for sure about proc rates beyond simply eye-balling it (which is what you're all doing, not that speaking from experience is bad, but it's hardly scientific). How much of a variation have you all seen in your own paralyze (be it 1 or 2) from mob to mob. You all probably use the exact same gear every time to cast, yet some mobs you'll never see it proc, and some you'll damn near cripple them.

Now that I've berated you all for eye-balling it, my friends para II (capped) is pretty *** sexy.
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 12:59:37  
idk why rdm soloing is the end all be all of everyones idea of rdm

in lowman events, I'm not sure who wouldnt want faster converts? soloing faust, zipacna, ixaerns, despot, and SCNM monsters are cool stories, bro but dont you have any friends?
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 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:00:40  
Valefor.Integral said:
idk why rdm soloing is the end all be all of everyones idea of rdm

in lowman events, I'm not sure who wouldnt want faster converts? soloing faust, zipacna, ixaerns, despot, and SCNM monsters are cool stories, bro but dont you have any friends?


Do us a favour, Mr. Troll.

Reply to what people post, not what you're assuming they do.
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 Caitsith.Alriath
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By Caitsith.Alriath 2009-10-29 13:00:51  
No wind merits or even a wind grip and I have no problems graving anything I've tried to solo. Converting earlier is vital(Atleast for those of us without Dchaps and refresh bodies lol)and speeds up kills.
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:06:01  
Garuda.Wooooodum said:
Valefor.Integral said:
lol why all the convert hate? with good gear and 8/8 enfeeb merits those accuracy ones are helping you a lot less than knocking a substantial chunk of time off convert


Please, stop being so naive. 8/8 Enfeebling merits and good gear doesn't win the internet. It takes way more than that on anything worth soloing.



you specifically mentioned soloing, when Idk who else had before.. theres a lot more to this game and life than saying you kited a mob around a pool or teleporter for 2 hours by yourself, dont get me wrong its AWESOME but there are much more efficient ways to do things and gearing yourself depends on the scenario yes, is that what youre trying to say? all I'm getting is being called names :(

Caitsith.Alriath said:
No wind merits or even a wind grip and I have no problems graving anything I've tried to solo. Converting earlier is vital(Atleast for those of us without Dchaps and refresh bodies lol)and speeds up kills.


and I have found the same to be true; converting even with af2 hat and dalmy is crucial and in some cases every second counts
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By Caitsith.Alriath 2009-10-29 13:07:20  
Valefor.Integral said:
idk why rdm soloing is the end all be all of everyones idea of rdm

in lowman events, I'm not sure who wouldnt want faster converts? soloing faust, zipacna, ixaerns, despot, and SCNM monsters are cool stories, bro but dont you have any friends?



Imo if you have a strong solo build you'll have a strong lowman build(meh phalanxII)as well as a good understanding of the need for MACC or Potency. Think of solo's as ENF practice for events.
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:08:50  
Again with the assumptions, nobody said any of that. xD Not sure what oriface you're pulling this out of it but there's so much, it must be a big one.
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 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:17:48  
all I've found soloing to be was manipulating the AI of the game and blink casting.. if you can do those two things you can do anything kited, but I never tried cactrot rapido or vivian etc

wiki said:
The slow effect from Slow II caps at 39%, depending on the number of merits involved and the value (Caster's MND - Target's MND).


and it says its similar for para2 casters MND- mob's MND

wiki said:
As with reaching the cap on Slow II, the chance for Paralyze II to "proc" increases as the ratio of user MND to target MND increases.


so from reading this it sounds like Para2 capped would be incredibly useful on what stuff you could stick para on
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:21:03  
Garuda.Wooooodum said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Lol convert merits


=( I got 5/5 ._. Mainly because I only really used RDM for meripo back then. Now I use it for everything and solo a lot, might be time to bite the bullet and take them off.


you mentioned soloing 2 times? are you high?
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:26:07  
Valefor.Integral said:
Garuda.Wooooodum said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Lol convert merits


=( I got 5/5 ._. Mainly because I only really used RDM for meripo back then. Now I use it for everything and solo a lot, might be time to bite the bullet and take them off.


you mentioned soloing 2 times? are you high?


We might mention a subject, but everytime you post you add your own fabrication in. I suppose the only way of illustrating it to somebody as fantastic on RDM as yourself is to quote and show you.

Disclaimer: You're either making something up, assuming the situation despite no mention of one, or arguing just for the sake of it in these quotes:

Integral said:
try salvaging as rdm someday!

Integral said:
well I think not meriting 5/5 phalanx2 comes down to laziness or not career rdming, so leave it to someone who cares if you dont!

Integral said:
with good gear and 8/8 enfeeb merits those accuracy ones are helping you a lot less than knocking a substantial chunk of time off convert

Integral said:
soloing faust, zipacna, ixaerns, despot, and SCNM monsters are cool stories,

Integral said:
theres a lot more to this game and life than saying you kited a mob around a pool or teleporter for 2 hours by yourself

Integral said:
bro but dont you have any friends?


All assumptions or fabrications.

And quite honestly, after the last quote, I should've stopped talking to you full stop. My bad for further engaging you in conversation, because you're really not worth it.
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 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:30:19  
I'm 12 and woooooooooooooooodum is a big jerk :(
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 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:31:33  
Valefor.Integral said:
I'm 12 and woooooooooooooooodum is a big fagggot


My point proven exactly. Thanks very much for saving me any more effort.
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:32:16  
WHY WOULD YOU EDIT MY POST TO DISPLAY SUCH VULGARITY

GOOD DAY, SIR
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:34:40  
Valefor.Integral said:
WHY WOULD YOU EDIT MY POST TO DISPLAY SUCH VULGARITY

GOOD DAY, SIR


Your point is so solid you're now resorting to saying something and editing your post when I quote it?

Maybe you are 12.
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:35:37  
Anyway, I'm going to ignore you now. I'm intrigued to learn all about Paralyze and what people have learnt about it, so I don't want this to be moved to the flame core.

If you want to continue this argument any further, Integral, please PM me so it stays out of this thread.
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:46:16  
well I posted some info about para which you also choose to ignore


I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-29 13:47:59  
Integral said:
and in my experience with a buff mnd build, para1 is just the same if not better than 2, definitely not worth meriting~


And I asked for your reasonings behind this, and you didn't reply.

Integral said:
I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR


Go away, then. I'm not the one posting under your name.
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:53:57  
Quote:
all I've found soloing to be was manipulating the AI of the game and blink casting.. if you can do those two things you can do anything kited, but I never tried cactrot rapido or vivian etc

Quote:
wiki said:
The slow effect from Slow II caps at 39%, depending on the number of merits involved and the value (Caster's MND - Target's MND).



and it says its similar for para2 casters MND- mob's MND

Quote:
wiki said:
As with reaching the cap on Slow II, the chance for Paralyze II to "proc" increases as the ratio of user MND to target MND increases.



quote incompetent :(

so from reading this it sounds like Para2 capped would be incredibly useful on what stuff you could stick para on
 Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2009-10-29 13:55:02  
i really cant compare to Paralyze 1 for myselfe since i never casted it in ages, but for me with my still not completed MND build for RDM (base+71 atm) and 4/5 merits it really proc alot and while the merits give you some more MACC to land them on higher mobs even easyer. Sure it is random as hell, but there is a masssive + on procs since i have 4 merits into Para2 compared to 1 Merit (while haveing almost same gear)
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 13:59:36  
yeah it sounds like para2 isnt nearly as useless as I believed it to be, but still just cause its so random I'll probably 5/5 slow 5/5 phalanx on my new char.. it is interesting though, curse the limitations of group 2 merits
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-29 14:03:35  
I'm interested in this thread as well. I looked around a bit on BG and there were a few RDM advocating Para1, and saving merits for other slots. However, they did express great displeasure in landing a high mnd para1 on an HNM, just to have it overwritten by another rdm's lower mnd para2.
 Valefor.Integral
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 14:08:17  
but it sounds like you can have just as good procing with more accuracy para2 with less mnd than a superbuff para1
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-29 14:35:08  
Reading this right now:

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/59134-paralyze-testing.html

Might have some use here.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-29 14:50:44  
Some snippets from that link:

Belkin said:

"So since everybody has been asking for Paralyze test results and I've been curious myself (For merit distribution in light of the Slow II tests).

I have preformed extremely simple tests in a short amount of time to get a general idea of what the "soft cap" is.

Tests were done in East Ronfaure [S] on Too Weak Ladybugs by counting the amount of times a Ladybug was paralyzed out of the total amount of times it attacked.

No MND gear and full MND gear yielded the same result (As expected from a Too Weak mob).

10 DIFFERENT (Killed them after the first Paralyze II wore off to avoid building resistance) Ladybugs had Paralyze II cast on them. The proc rate was as follows:

Test 1-5 were done with no gear at all
Test 6-10 were done with full MND gear

Test 1: 39%
Test 2: 31%
Test 3: 18%
Test 4: 33%
Test 5: 34%
Test 6: 36%
Test 7: 40%
Test 8: 23%
Test 9: 28%
Test 10: 37%

This leads me to believe the proc rate "cap" is around 40%. Obviously you can get some freak of nature tests and get a 50%-60% proc rate but this is highly unlikely.

This got me thinking about what the proc rate for Paralyze I was. So I tested with the same method as above.

Only 5 Tests were done (Mainly because I don't plan on using it and I didn't care that much)

Test 1 & 2 were done with no gear
Test 3-5 were done with full MND gear

Test 1: 17%
Test 2: 18%
Test 3: 17%
Test 4: 19%
Test 5: 19%

Probably get a capped proc rate of 20% with Paralyze I (Again, expect some freaks of nature due to the random nature of Paralyze in general).

I will test later on the highest level Aerns in sea in a couple hours to see what kind of results I can get on tougher mobs.

If anybody can suggest a better testing method, I'm all for it. But I hope this gives some RDMs some peace of mind knowing that Paralyze II is about 15-20% better than Paralyze I


People had complaints about the sample size, so Ringthree talked to his friend that is a Ph.D. candidate in Comm at USC. His research is mostly in statistics and statistical analysis. This is what he had to say:

Paul said:
[09:53] ringthreetheicp: Can I ask you a question and you can help me see what test would be best to look for significance?
[09:54] ringthreetheicp: If you are busy don't worry about it.
[09:54] Paul: in social science research, it is generally defined in such a way as to say that there is 95% likelihood that differences in the independent variable are responsible for differences in the dependent variable
[09:54] Paul: sure describe the situation
[09:54] ringthreetheicp: Ok, this is game related.
[09:55] ringthreetheicp: A player casts a spell on a monster that has a chance to prevent that monster from acting.
[10:02] ringthreetheicp: The first spell is cast ten times, with the spell procing 39%, 31%, 18%, 33%, 34%, 36%, 40%, 23%, 28% and 37% of the time for each test respectively.
[10:04] ringthreetheicp: A second different spell with a similar effect is cast 5 times, with the spell procing 17%, 18%, 17%, 19%, 19% of the time for each test respectively.
[10:04] ringthreetheicp: Is there a way to tell if the first and second spell have a statistical significance in their chance to proc?
[10:05] Paul: can you collect more data?
[10:07] Paul: with a t-test, one of the assumptions is that you have equal sized groups
[10:07] Paul: but it is fairly robust to that assumption
[10:07] Paul: let me run the numbers
[10:09] Paul: ok-- so i conducted an independent sample t-test
[10:10] Paul: for an indepedent sample t-test, you want the two groups to have equal variance, so first I conducted Levene's test for equality of variances
[10:11] Paul: with an F of 6.479, p=.024, we can say that they are close enough
[10:11] Paul: now, in the first group, the average was 31.9%
[10:11] Paul: in the second group, the average was 18%
[10:12] Paul: with 13 degrees of freedom, the t value is 4.281, significant at p < .001
[10:12] Paul: which means, the odds that the difference occured due to chance is less than .1%
[10:13] Paul: i.e., highly statistically significant
[10:14] Paul: the t-test is useful for comparing means, but there are other differences between the two groups
[10:14] Paul: the first has a standard deviation of over 7, while the latter has standard devation of 1
[10:15] Paul: this means that there is a much higher degree of variability in the first group -- although it appears that only a few times out of a hundred would that first group be as low as the second group
[10:16] Paul: perhaps less than that, if, for example, there is a programmed lower limit to its effect
[10:16] ringthreetheicp: Ok, cool. Is there a different test we could use that would be better than a t-test for this?
[10:16] Paul: nevertheless, the second item is highly consistent, so it averages 18%, and then 2/3 of the time it will be between 17 and 19
[10:16] Paul: no, the t-test is just fine for this
[10:16] ringthreetheicp: Ok, cool.
[10:17] ringthreetheicp: Pure spectualation on my part, but I believe the lower spell has a lower cap, and the higher spell has a higher cap but with a higher level of variation.
[10:18] Paul: yeah thats what the data indicate
[10:18] Paul: but if there was more data, you might be able to make stronger inferences
[10:19] ringthreetheicp: What would you want for those tests?
[10:24] ringthreetheicp: Busy?
[10:24] ringthreetheicp: Just need equal results or how many more tests would you want?
[10:25] Paul: well i would say that if you found more results that generally confirmed what you already have, you arent going to get a different result
[10:25] Paul: and you don't need a 'stronger' result, as the result is quite strong
[10:26] Paul: but if you find something which contradicts the assumption, then that plus all the rest of the data in the intererim can help determine if its an abberation or if the assumption is in fact mistaken


In short Paul believes the data presented would be substantial enough to make strong inferences.

Hope this helps you. ^^
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-10-29 15:03:20  
Valefor.Integral said:
idk why rdm soloing is the end all be all of everyones idea of rdm in lowman events, I'm not sure who wouldnt want faster converts? soloing faust, zipacna, ixaerns, despot, and SCNM monsters are cool stories, bro but dont you have any friends?

Probably because in low man events I never come close to running out of mp and that with rarely converting lol
 Quetzalcoatl.Princemercury
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By Quetzalcoatl.Princemercury 2009-10-29 15:06:10  
My Merits:

Convert 5
Ice Acc 5

Dia III 2
Phalanx II 2
Slow II 5
Para II 1

My reasoning:

Group 1
Because I like mp, the sooner I get, the easier it makes my life especially in haste/refresh bombing parties.

Ice Accuracy -> for my Level 1 Paralyze II and Bliz III nukes.

Group 2
Dia III -> Don't really need def down longer than 1 min for skillchains, even that I think II is too many. But when I play, I only play with 1 friend all the time so it suits us.

Phalanx II -> Since I'm never tanking I just threw 2 in there to help my partner.

Slow II -> Because it's proven and beaten to a pulp that the more merits you put in Slow II the better it performs and it's a static change. With Terra Staff and a full Macc and MND setup, 5 earth merits aren't really needed.

Para II -> Only 1 here to use it on harder mobs, because I've noticed higher accuracy and the proc rate doesn't really differentiate between 1-5 merits, from what I've seen... But I do notice it procs more than P1. Doing HNM? Let someone else take care of it :P.
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By Valefor.Zolan 2009-10-29 15:33:24  
Valefor.Integral said:
well I think not meriting 5/5 phalanx2 comes down to laziness or not career rdming, so leave it to someone who cares if you dont!



Alot of career Redmages go 5/5 Bio3 for the fun of soloing mobs. Trying soloing Ixern' Mnk or Dark with Bio2, and you will soon realise how much Bio3 is needed.
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By Valefor.Integral 2009-10-29 15:37:50  
yes I know precisely how long it takes to solo those shitty mobs.. can do it on blm too with gaiters, thats why having friends is always nice
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By Valefor.Zolan 2009-10-29 15:41:38  
Its not about not having friends. If I wanted I could have friends there with me or even dual box their characters, Its about the thrill of it and the fun. Something you obviously don't get which is fine. Play the game you want to play but just because a rdm dosent have 5/5 phalanx2 does not make you better then him, just like 5/5 Bio3 dosent make him better then you... all for fun