Merit Choice Abilities?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Merit Choice Abilities?
Merit Choice Abilities?
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 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 08:45:34  
Yo. I just wanted to know what abilities and recasts would be best on SAM. I've got all the main abilities (Shikikoyo, Blade Bash, Ikishoten & Overwhelm) none of them capped yet. I haven't merited any recasts in Group 1 yet. I've capped GK and Critical Hit Rate. I'm going to cap STR and PA skill last if possible because it takes the longest /sigh.

I heard most SAM's cap Overwhelm? Which is cool and i wanna know all your expertise opinions please. Thank you!
 Leviathan.Catnipthief
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By Leviathan.Catnipthief 2010-05-13 08:51:47  
Overwhelm, shikkiyoko is nice, blade bash I haven't personally unlocked, but I need to put at least 1 in.

Cap Overwhelm though for sure.
 Unicorn.Idevlboy
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By Unicorn.Idevlboy 2010-05-13 08:53:13  
Group 1

Store TP - 5/5
Meditate recast - 5/5


Group 2
Shikokoyo - 1 (maybe)
Blade bash - 4/5
Overwhelm - 5/5

Not really any better options for SAM.
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 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2010-05-13 08:53:17  
Personally I'd say go with:

GK 8/8
PA 8/8
Crit Hit Rate 4/4
Meditate 5/5
STP 5/5
Blade Bash 4/5
Overwhelm 5/5
Shikikoyo 1/5

Then STR 5/5 if you feel like it.

In my opinion, while getting extra TP from a Zanshin is nice, it's not something I'd use 3 merits on when they can go to use elsewhere. Similarly, Shikikoyo is debatable as a worthwhile merit, personally I'd only merit it when I'm doing events that may be able to use TP off the start (KSNM, ISNM, etc. Places you don't lose TP when you enter/exit areas)
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 Shiva.Eggbert
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By Shiva.Eggbert 2010-05-13 09:00:16  
I haven't levelled up sam myself but personally I would do the same as above but 1/5 Blade bash and 4/5 shikikoyo. It's always good while waiting for events to have your whole party with TP if you can and I really don't see too much use for blade bash. Overwhelm and meditate fully merit straight away though.
 Unicorn.Idevlboy
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By Unicorn.Idevlboy 2010-05-13 09:00:23  
Sylph.Hitetsu said:
In my opinion, while getting extra TP from a Zanshin is nice, it's not something I'd use 3 merits on when they can go to use elsewhere.

^ This

That extra TP wont do you any good if you are dead. This is why most sams opt to put more merits into Blade Bash as it can be used to stop a GA or some nasty ability.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 09:02:08  
oh that's great guys! tyvm for the help i'll defo merit those! tyty \^.^/
 Unicorn.Idevlboy
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By Unicorn.Idevlboy 2010-05-13 09:05:18  
Shiva.Eggbert said:
I haven't levelled up sam myself but personally I would do the same as above but 1/5 Blade bash and 4/5 shikikoyo. It's always good while waiting for events to have your whole party with TP if you can and I really don't see too much use for blade bash. Overwhelm and meditate fully merit straight away though.

It all comes down to play style and what you are using the job for. I do sky, KSNM, INSM, dyna, salvage, nyzul and assualts and i can tell you i have rarely ever needed to use Shikikoyo more than 1x in a 20min period. If you honestly think you need it for what you are doing then by all means put the merits into it but most people find blade bash to be far more useful in more situations.
 Valefor.Lluna
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By Valefor.Lluna 2010-05-13 09:11:11  
Ikishoten vs Shikikoyo Blade Bash?

I use 3/5 Ikishoten 1/5 Shikikoyo and 1/5 Blade Bash. Why?

Shikikoyo- Most of the times all DD's will go /SAM wich will allow them to get TP while waiting for event to Start.

Blade Bash- Is kinda usefull to stun TP moves, but we have BLM's and DRK's to stun.

Ikishoten- More TP = more WS DMG. You will always miss no matter how much ACC. you have.






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 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:12:11  
4 merits in Ikishoten will make every zanshin'ed hit count as 2 hits with a standard 450 delay 6 hit build. If you ever fight anything other than birds it's a nice thing to have (doesn't hurt for birds either but won't help much).

If you REALLY wanna have shiki and blade bash you're probably better just having 4 in overwhelm since it's only 2% for the last merit. 4 in either blade bash or shiki is just not gonna do much for you.
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 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 09:21:53  
Apparently Ishikoten is pretty lol.

Merits better spent elsewhere.
 Bahamut.Satanas
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By Bahamut.Satanas 2010-05-13 09:31:28  
Sylph.Hitetsu said:
Personally I'd say go with:

GK 8/8
PA 8/8
Crit Hit Rate 4/4
Meditate 5/5
STP 5/5
Blade Bash 4/5
Overwhelm 5/5
Shikikoyo 1/5

Then STR 5/5 if you feel like it.

In my opinion, while getting extra TP from a Zanshin is nice, it's not something I'd use 3 merits on when they can go to use elsewhere. Similarly, Shikikoyo is debatable as a worthwhile merit, personally I'd only merit it when I'm doing events that may be able to use TP off the start (KSNM, ISNM, etc. Places you don't lose TP when you enter/exit areas)

^
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:36:51  
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Apparently Ishikoten is pretty lol.

Merits better spent elsewhere.
Ikishoten is the best cat 2 next to overwhelm, lol. Shiki is essentially a toy and blade bash is a nice to have ability but not really worth having more than one merit in it.
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 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 09:39:17  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Apparently Ishikoten is pretty lol.

Merits better spent elsewhere.
Ikishoten is the best cat 2 next to overwhelm, lol. Shiki is essentially a toy and blade bash is a nice to have ability but not really worth having more than one merit in it.

I would of thought it would be kind of useless seeing as Sams have capped acc relatively easily.

I mean Shiki has its uses and is incredibly awesome for Duoing with a non /sam job.

And Blade Bash is awesome if you're soloing.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:41:56  
Even if you have capped acc it helps a tiny bit. And if you use your sam a lot, you actually run into situations where you're not quite capped for various reasons. And yeah, the other two abilities, just not that hot.

Edit: Yes, both abilities have their uses, but they're really limited by their horrible recast timers. A lot of other cat 2 stuff with huge timers like devotion/chivalry you get a lot more out of it. Shiki, you use it and then the tp's essentially gone instantly. Blade bash, if you really wanna stun that much, just go drk or something, lol. Otherwise 1 merit for bash is fine.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 09:43:14  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Even if you have capped acc it helps a tiny bit. And if you use your sam a lot, you actually run into situations where you're not quite capped for various reasons. And yeah, the other two abilities, just not that hot.

What situations? w/ food most of the time a SAM's acc is going to be comfortably capped with GK.
 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2010-05-13 09:44:07  
The thing with Ikishoten is that, to make it actually worthwhile having, you need to miss more than 5% of the time and have it with 4~5 merits. Which means you're normally selling your DD capabilities very short.

As opposed to Blade Bash, which can be used to keep that "Oh ***" moment from happening, or to help keep a mob's TP gain lowered.

As I mentioned, Shikikoyo is only really good for somewhere you have time to prepare (Meditate) and you won't lose TP when you do something, that way you can meditate and give other (non /SAM) DD's some extra TP to kill things faster. It's also a good way to help clean/break latents/whatever you call it, with other people.

Either way, I wouldn't put Ikishoten on unless I could have another 5 merits for my Cat2.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 09:47:17  
I think Blade bash vs Shiki comes down to play style, But this is the first time I've seen someone try to justify Ikishoten.

 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:48:10  
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Even if you have capped acc it helps a tiny bit. And if you use your sam a lot, you actually run into situations where you're not quite capped for various reasons. And yeah, the other two abilities, just not that hot.

What situations? w/ food most of the time a SAM's acc is going to be comfortably capped with GK.
Mmm, offhand, fighting most HNMs with meat on. Random thf mobs in dynamis, mamools with warm up on, etc... I mean, yeah you may have super perfect acc sets to switch to for every situation but this provides buffers for unusual situations.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:49:04  
That's partially because of how misunderstood zanshin and ikishoten were for the longest time. It still holds a lot of stigma from before.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 09:51:30  
Is it really worth meriting Iki for the really seldom situations? I'm pretty sure the maths has been done on it, Things aren't ignored because of stigma, people mathematically test nearly everything in this game to see the most beneficial abilities/equipment to use.
 Shiva.Eggbert
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By Shiva.Eggbert 2010-05-13 09:53:46  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Even if you have capped acc it helps a tiny bit. And if you use your sam a lot, you actually run into situations where you're not quite capped for various reasons. And yeah, the other two abilities, just not that hot.
What situations? w/ food most of the time a SAM's acc is going to be comfortably capped with GK.
Mmm, offhand, fighting most HNMs with meat on. Random thf mobs in dynamis, mamools with warm up on, etc... I mean, yeah you may have super perfect acc sets to switch to for every situation but this provides buffers for unusual situations.

I can see the use of ikishoten but I just feel I would find find more situations where Shikikoyo and Blade Bash would help me more. Also if you are having accuracy problems on HNMs eating meat maybe you should switch to sushi/pizza. :)
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 09:54:23  
Random quote breaking, but to Hitetsu, I don't mind having Blade Bash, but anything more than 1 merit in it feels so wasteful. It's still super long with say 4 merits in it and if you really need to stun that often, you should have a dedicated stunner. Even as drk with a natural 5 minute bash, I always just felt like it was never ready when I wanted it and that'd only be worse with blade bash.

And shiki, I understand WHAT you use it for, it's just, in the long run it really doesn't do much. Most people can get tp in like 30 seconds flat so the overall impact is just minimal.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 10:00:01  
I dunno, it depends what you use your sam for, the situations aren't as seldom for me since I don't merit on sam, I mainly just use it for HNM/endgame activities. And when people want to test something they go nuts on it. Noone wanted to test zanshin. The data on the wiki was at least 2-3 years old, and everyone just took it for granted that it was true and noone tested it. It wasn't until I made a stink about it like... a year ago? And a friend of mine tested it the data got fixed.

As for pizza/sushi, why would I do that when I can do more dmg using meat? Pizza isn't bad, but for things where it's easy to accidentally die, it's not very bag friendly to carry aound 5 pizzas or whatever. So I could eat sushi, but if I'd do more dmg using meat with iki then why not do that? I don't feel like I'm losing out all that much by not having Shiki and I'll merit blade bash one of these days when I get around to it, lol.
 Shiva.Eggbert
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By Shiva.Eggbert 2010-05-13 10:01:07  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Random quote breaking, but to Hitetsu, I don't mind having Blade Bash, but anything more than 1 merit in it feels so wasteful. It's still super long with say 4 merits in it and if you really need to stun that often, you should have a dedicated stunner. Even as drk with a natural 5 minute bash, I always just felt like it was never ready when I wanted it and that'd only be worse with blade bash.

I agree with you on blade bash. As a drk I only really use weapon bash when I desperatly need to stun something and stun is recharging so I would never put more than one merit into blade bash personally. If you really need a stunned then get a drk or a blm.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 10:01:51  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
I dunno, it depends what you use your sam for, the situations aren't as seldom for me since I don't merit on sam, I mainly just use it for HNM/endgame activities. And when people want to test something they go nuts on it. Noone wanted to test zanshin. The data on the wiki was at least 2-3 years old, and everyone just took it for granted that it was true and noone tested it. It wasn't until I made a stink about it like... a year ago? And a friend of mine tested it the data got fixed.

As for pizza/sushi, why would I do that when I can do more dmg using meat? Pizza isn't bad, but for things where it's easy to accidentally die, it's not very bag friendly to carry aound 5 pizzas or whatever. So I could eat sushi, but if I'd do more dmg using meat with iki then why not do that? I don't feel like I'm losing out all that much by not having Shiki and I'll merit blade bash one of these days when I get around to it, lol.

It would be hard to judge without seeing your sam set, but if meriting iki is the only reason your keeping up with dmg then something is going very wrong
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 10:02:36  
Ikishoten sucks, really. w/ 5/5 merits, you get 15 extra tp.

Let's say we have our standard 6hit of 16.7tp/swing.

A miss /zanshin nets you 15 extra tp, 31.7 total

16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 = 100.2 tp

Now let's replace a connected hit w/ a zanshin hit

16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 31.7 + 16.7 = 98.5 tp

Guess what, you still need that 6th hit to ws. It hasn't done anything for you.

You'd literally have to have shitty enough acc to get two zanshins on one trip to 100 tp and have both of those zanshin procs land for it to make a difference.

And then you have polearm sam, 15 tp isn't going to drop you from a 5hit to a 4hit when you're already getting 20tp/hit and would need 25/hit to get a 4 hit.
 Shiva.Eggbert
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By Shiva.Eggbert 2010-05-13 10:03:10  
If you are missing a lot on HNMs then accuracy food is going to help your damage a lot more meat.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-13 10:04:29  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ikishoten sucks, really. w/ 5/5 merits, you get 15 extra tp.

Let's say we have our standard 6hit of 16.7tp/swing.

A miss /zanshin nets you 15 extra tp, 31.7 total

16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 = 100.2 tp

Now let's replace a connected hit w/ a zanshin hit

16.7 16.7 16.7 31.7 16.7 = 98.5 tp

Guess what, you still need that 6th hit to ws. It hasn't done anything for you.

You'd literally have to have shitty enough acc to get two zanshins on one trip to 100 tp and have both of those zanshin procs land for it to make a difference.

And then you have polearm sam, 15 tp isn't going to drop you from a 5hit to a 4hit when you're already getting 20tp/hit and would need 25/hit to get a 4 hit.

His/her Tomoe set:



Now I don't pretend to know anything about SAM, but isn't that enough acc to make Iki pretty much useless?
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 10:06:09  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ikishoten sucks, really. w/ 5/5 merits, you get 15 extra tp.

Let's say we have our standard 6hit of 16.7tp/swing.

A miss /zanshin nets you 15 extra tp, 31.7 total

16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 = 100.2 tp

Now let's replace a connected hit w/ a zanshin hit

16.7 16.7 16.7 31.7 16.7 = 98.5 tp

Guess what, you still need that 6th hit to ws. It hasn't done anything for you.

You'd literally have to have shitty enough acc to get two zanshins on one trip to 100 tp and have both of those zanshin procs land for it to make a difference.

And then you have polearm sam, 15 tp isn't going to drop you from a 5hit to a 4hit when you're already getting 20tp/hit and would need 25/hit to get a 4 hit.
Wow, Tiger, DEAD WRONG. Iki TP bonus is affected by store tp. So guess what, 11.5+12 = 34.3 + 16.7 * 4 = 101.1.

And for the record, polearm can do it but you need the 5th merit in it which I'm personally iffy on unless you use polearm a lot.
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