Merit Choice Abilities?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Merit Choice Abilities?
Merit Choice Abilities?
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By 2010-05-13 10:56:06
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 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-13 10:57:36  
Yuffy said:
Also, Shiki might end up being an overflow on the person it is used on.

Depends if your using windower to see peoples TP or not. I don't have it or bothered finishing my SAMs group 2 merits but I agree with tigers arguement.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:00:29  
I was refering to situations like Sarameya tanking with 1 or 2 SAMs. But well, its an example, i'm pretty sure if you used SAM outside of Einherjar and merit parties you have seen situations where Shikikoyo and Blade bash are plain useless and your acc is for sure not capped. But we are only talking about GK here, its not the whole point.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:02:27  
When i'm in a DD party, i have DRGs, DRKs and SAMs with me so Shikikoyo is out of question even if i see their TP.

Also, for the people that seem to not grasp this concept, meriting Ikishoten has nothing to do with acc, even if its linked to Zanshin.

Buying better equip wont make you have 100% acc or even over 90% for most of the DDs in this game, therefore, enjoy your Zanshining when it happens.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:03:39  
Also, when acc is capped, the zanshin rate is 2.25%, not the rate of iki being useful.

For example. Gkt 6hit? If that zanshin procs on the 6th hit, then it takes the same number of rounds to get 100 tp. WS counts as a hit in xhit. So you have ws hit hit hit hit hit ws hit hit hit hit hit ws.

5 hits until your next ws. Any zanshin proc on that fifth melee hit, iki's tp is going to do nothing for you. Only will do something for you 4/5 of the time.

2.25 x (4/5) = 1.8 Now we have a 1.8% chance of iki doing something for you at capped hitrate. Now, if you have an iki proc early on on the first or second hit, you're going to save 1 hit yay, but wait, the hit you got 100 tp on, DAs, which means it still took the same number of attack rounds, as no iki would have gotten 100 tp on this round too. That 1.8 goes even lower.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:05:01  
Quote:
Also, for the people that seem to not grasp this concept, meriting Ikishoten has nothing to do with acc, even if its linked to Zanshin.

The job trait itself, no. But the higher your acc is, the less % of an increase this job trait brings you. So yes, acc is linked.
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-13 11:05:52  
When Shik and meditate is up and sekk is down I keep an eye on the best DD in the party and wait until they WS (and make sure they didnt use meditate/sekk) then Med till over 150 and shik them. Not that hard to do lol
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:06:54  
In before I don't use windower

Edit: and even if he doesn't, that doesn't make iki better, just makes shik more communication to get off. So, if no windower and not lazy, still can get more dmg from shik
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:10:10  
Yuffy said:
I was refering to situations like Sarameya tanking with 1 or 2 SAMs. But well, its an example, i'm pretty sure if you used SAM outside of Einherjar and merit parties you have seen situations where Shikikoyo and Blade bash are plain useless and your acc is for sure not capped. But we are only talking about GK here, its not the whole point.
ITT sams can't give other sams TP
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:12:33  
Of course, but if you take the worst scenario, while being rare, it still can happen, thats the whole point of Ikishoten merits. I rarely have 95% on a whole event with Polearm which alone made Ikishoten merits useful.

As said in a very old thread, unless you really need Stun, there is seriously no other "obvious" choice after Overwhelm, it depends on what you do and what you need.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:15:02  
Sure, if you want to go worst case scenario, there's always a use for something, but does that worst case scenario happen often enough and does it make having iki full time over the other stuff? no. Blade bash isn't useful for damage. It has its own use. If you want to dismiss that and only look at max damage, than Shik will provide more overall dmg than iki.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:15:33  
Quote:
When Shik and meditate is up and sekk is down I keep an eye on the best DD in the party and wait until they WS (and make sure they didnt use meditate/sekk) then Med till over 150 and shik them. Not that hard to do lol
Focusing on other people seeing how DDing as SAM is something busy = not possible. The way you put it, you spend more time paying attention to others than yourself, it doesnt sound viable at all and i'm pretty sure its not.
Quote:
ITT sams can't give other sams TP
You must have missed the part where it says that solo tank is as much of a possiblity than dual tank.
 Shiva.Eggbert
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By Shiva.Eggbert 2010-05-13 11:18:37  
I actually agree with you there. Although personally I find ikishoten kind of useless Blade bash and shikikoyo although nice to have are not neccesary. Overwhelm is necesary whereas the other 3 JAs are matter of opinion and what you use your sam for really. But don't underestimate shikikoyo. It is a very nice ability :)
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:18:52  
and I guess you missed the part where it said "or 2 sams"
Quote:
Focusing on other people seeing how DDing as SAM is something busy = not possible. The way you put it, you spend more time paying attention to others than yourself, it doesnt sound viable at all and i'm pretty sure its not.

Wrong, you act as if it's impossible. Sure, it may be tougher to work out, but provided you can do it, it's still the highest potential for damage.

If you're saying
more work = worse, then you're just a lazy player.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:21:21  
Quote:
If you want to dismiss that and only look at max damage, than Shik will provide more overall dmg than iki.
That was exactly my point of view yes. Problem being that after using Shikikoyo for a rather long time, it was unproductive because you have to focus on people TPing and for X and Y reason i cant fully, and then doing so makes Shikikoyo less productive too since you arent using it right when its ready.

So in the end, i picked the way that helps without sacrificing anything and leaving my playstyle the same.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:23:35  
No, that makes you a worse player than someone who can focus on it. Again, shik has higher potential. Just because YOU can't reach that potential, doesn't make it worse.

So, I guess we can conclude

Versatility: Blade Bash

Pure damage, good player: Shik

Pure damage, lazy/subpar player: Iki
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:25:36  
Quote:
Wrong, you act as if it's impossible. Sure, it may be tougher to work out, but provided you can do it, it's still the highest potential for damage.
It is totally possible but if you are trying to tell me that you can fully exploit Shikikoyo on others while being 100% hardcore yourself, this is the part i call impossible. I'm the kind to multitask badly in events so i have more than a little experience on the subject.
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-13 11:29:35  
Yuffy said:
Quote:
When Shik and meditate is up and sekk is down I keep an eye on the best DD in the party and wait until they WS (and make sure they didnt use meditate/sekk) then Med till over 150 and shik them. Not that hard to do lol
Focusing on other people seeing how DDing as SAM is something busy = not possible. The way you put it, you spend more time paying attention to others than yourself, it doesnt sound viable at all and i'm pretty sure its not.
Quote:
ITT sams can't give other sams TP
You must have missed the part where it says that solo tank is as much of a possiblity than dual tank.


Idk about you but when i'm in a linkshell event I like to play my jobs the best I can and put a lot of focus on what i'm doing. In that scenario as long as i'm not tanking (outside of merits/nyzul it's unlikely) it's only 30 secs of focus on 1 other person (the best DD you can shik).

I know some people can't put so much focus into thier play but I see a lot of lazy DD a lot of the time too.

Also DDing as sam isn't really busy lol you hit a JA every few mins and a few WS buttons. You're only seriously busy when tanking, in which case if you're /war or /thf for dmg you want to lose hate to the tank. If you're /nin and supposed to be tanking then shik isn't worthwhile as you need all tp to be holding hate most likely.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:29:54  
Yea, because everyone is as bad at multitasking as you.

ITT: I can't do it, so it's impossible.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:32:21  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
No, that makes you a worse player than someone who can focus on it. Again, shik has higher potential. Just because YOU can't reach that potential, doesn't make it worse.

So, I guess we can conclude

Versatility: Blade Bash

Pure damage, good player: Shik

Pure damage, lazy/subpar player: Iki
If it was a problem about me in particular it wouldnt even be worth talking about.

I'm not even being skeptical, i'm just saying that anyone saying "Everytime shikikoyo is ready, i make a 100% good use out of it without hindering my performances" is a liar and therefore makes Shikikoyo flawed in the way you present it.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:36:27  
You don't have to use it the second it's up. General good management even looking at someone's tp and deciding when/who to give it to is still going to produce more damage than iki
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:45:42  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Yea, because everyone is as bad at multitasking as you.

ITT: I can't do it, so it's impossible.
Well, seeing how you like to fap about your meripo and einherjar examples, i dont recognize myself in the way you describe the SAM job. So ya, if you ask me to lick your *** just so i can be aknowledged as someone decent in your eyes, you picked the wrong guy. Oh ya also since you really liked this little game: ITT: Someone playing SAM with rather good gear thinking he has experienced everything better than others because HE thinks so. You might be a good player but you arent the only, you are just someone lost in the mass at this point to be honest. But its ok, keep being narrowminded and looking in your mirror, you are the best is what it said right?
Leviathan.Celestinia said:
Yuffy said:
Quote:
When Shik and meditate is up and sekk is down I keep an eye on the best DD in the party and wait until they WS (and make sure they didnt use meditate/sekk) then Med till over 150 and shik them. Not that hard to do lol
Focusing on other people seeing how DDing as SAM is something busy = not possible. The way you put it, you spend more time paying attention to others than yourself, it doesnt sound viable at all and i'm pretty sure its not.
Quote:
ITT sams can't give other sams TP
You must have missed the part where it says that solo tank is as much of a possiblity than dual tank.


Idk about you but when i'm in a linkshell event I like to play my jobs the best I can and put a lot of focus on what i'm doing. In that scenario as long as i'm not tanking (outside of merits/nyzul it's unlikely) it's only 30 secs of focus on 1 other person (the best DD you can shik).

I know some people can't put so much focus into thier play but I see a lot of lazy DD a lot of the time too.

Also DDing as sam isn't really busy lol you hit a JA every few mins and a few WS buttons. You're only seriously busy when tanking, in which case if you're /war or /thf for dmg you want to lose hate to the tank. If you're /nin and supposed to be tanking then shik isn't worthwhile as you need all tp to be holding hate most likely.
Well, i totally understand what you mean and if it was 2 or 3 years ago i would have agreed fully with you to be honest but with what i experience in events nowadays, this just doesnt exist anymore. In 30sec a lot of things can happen, between keeping myself alive and being able to WS again etc.

Problem being that i'm always on the edge when i play SAM. I pay attention to absolutely everything and Shikikoyo if its not usable right off the bat make it a problem if you really want to have a grip on everything going on.

So ya, i agree that its possible, just not 100% viable if you pay attention more than just your damage, seigan and your party window with member's TPs.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 11:50:33  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
You don't have to use it the second it's up. General good management even looking at someone's tp and deciding when/who to give it to is still going to produce more damage than iki
Yes, in this case i agree but what happens if the very unlikely bad scenario happens: everytime you have a window of time to look at TP and Shiki, people dont qualify to get Shikied. I had it happen more than a few times and after maybe 6 times, while its still damage vs nothing, its still an annoying thing. Also, depending the DDs in your party, they might TP too fast to make Shiki nothing else but an overflow (Apoc DRKs, other 5hits Polearm SAM and so on).

And then, you have the situations where you are tanking and have 0 DD with you, what about Shikikoyo in these situations? Especially knowing that you wont cap acc even with GK while tanking in this kind of situation.

Hope its clear enough this time :(
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:54:00  
Quote:
Well, seeing how you like to fap about your meripo and einherjar examples,

not really
Quote:
i dont recognize myself in the way you describe the SAM job. So ya, if you ask me to lick your *** just so i can be aknowledged as someone decent in your eyes, you picked the wrong guy.
idc what you do. You can merit w/e you want. I'm not telling anyone what they can and can't merit. I'm telling that if you're meriting for the purpose of damage, then Shik is going to give you your greatest damage potential.
Quote:
Oh ya also since you really liked this little game: ITT: Someone playing SAM with rather good gear thinking he has experienced everything better than others because HE thinks so.
Your analysis sucks. I don't think, nor have I claimed to have experienced everything in this game.
Quote:
You might be a good player but you arent the only, you are just someone lost in the mass at this point to be honest.
Why would I care about this? I prefer more good players, so I get less shitty ones in my groups.
Quote:
But its ok, keep being narrowminded and looking in your mirror, you are the best is what it said right?

If I ever reduce my sam to only being used for solo tanking sarameya , I'll give your suggestion a shot.


Quote:
In 30sec a lot of things can happen, between keeping myself alive
Oh hey, bladebash is useless yo.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 11:55:38  
Yuffy said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
You don't have to use it the second it's up. General good management even looking at someone's tp and deciding when/who to give it to is still going to produce more damage than iki
Yes, in this case i agree but what happens if the very unlikely bad scenario happens: everytime you have a window of time to look at TP and Shiki, people dont qualify to get Shikied. I had it happen more than a few times and after maybe 6 times, while its still damage vs nothing, its still an annoying thing. Also, depending the DDs in your party, they might TP too fast to make Shiki nothing else but an overflow (Apoc DRKs, other 5hits Polearm SAM and so on).

And then, you have the situations where you are tanking and have 0 DD with you, what about Shikikoyo in these situations? Especially knowing that you wont cap acc even with GK while tanking in this kind of situation.

Hope its clear enough this time :(
I've already answered that. If I ever stop using sam for anything, but only keep it to solo tank Sarameya, then you have a point. If I use it for other things, and have other DDs more often than not, then, sorry, solo tanking Sarameya doesn't cut it.

Also, OP was asking for suggestions. Did you even look at the OP's jobs? The only job is 75 sam. I highly doubt the only thing (s)he'll be using it for is solo tanking.

And if you're talking about overflow sams, this is where good communication comes in. Overflow it to a sam w/ sekk up.
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By Yuffy 2010-05-13 12:03:23  
Considering some people only play SAM but play it giving it a lot of attention, i dont think its a bad idea to mention that he/she shouldnt waste his time on group 2 beyong Overwhelm until he/she has a clear idea about whether there is a need for Blade bash or Shikikoyo or neither.

As for giving examples of when to use any of the 3, i think it has been done during the argue yes so it wasnt 100% useless as very good examples were given about the use of the 3 other merit choices in group 2.
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 Seraph.Rafik
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-13 12:13:09  
If we doing Jailer of Fort, and I am on sam, you best believe I am giving my tp to the ranger so he dies faster and blade bash doesnt hurt either once in a while
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 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-13 12:14:27  
Since I only have 1/5 shik I mostly use it to organise a 4 step light with a 2nd sam when one of our sekk's is down.

1st sam: sekk (gekko > yuki). 2nd sam shik the 1st. 1st sam gekko for frag. 2nd sam kasha for light.

Yuffy has a point, until they know what type of stuff they want to do with the job (solo or just meripo/endgame) probably best to stick with overwhealm for now.
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-05-13 12:16:02  
Question: How is making up missed hit's any different then landing the hit naturally? Zanshin has no STR or ATT penalty, and with Iki, it provides MORE TP, which should result in more damage.

100 swings, 95% ACC, no Iki merits.
100*.95= 95
5*.45*.95= 2
97 total.
97*16.7= 1619.9 TP

100 swings, 85% ACC, 5 Iki merits.
100*.85= 85
15*.45*.95= 6
91 total.
85*16.7= 1419.5
6*31.7= 190.2
1609.7 TP

The 95% ACC build is going to get off 1 extra WS every 1000 swings. That can easily be made up by the gear replacing 20 ACC in other slots. For example, Byrnie +1 could replace Haubergeon +1.

13 ATT is gained in the trade off. Which, while it doesn't seem like much, you have to account for it being applied to 1000 swings. Which should easily make up for the damage of a single extra WS.
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2010-05-13 12:20:13  
SAM cant wear Tiercel Necklace.
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