Budget Penta

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Budget Penta
Budget Penta
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 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 10:39:53  
I'm looking to improve my SAM's Penta setup without spending x millions of gil, and of course figure out just what is wrong with my gear sets. (I know there are problems!)

This is currently with 0/8 Polearm and 0/5 Overwhelm, still need to work on that. Consider them both capped for any maths involved.

TP set:


WS set:


Items I'm looking to get in the near future:
Fowling Earring
PCC
Ranged equip(Which? Halp~)
Hachiman hands/feet(If I need them?)
Virtuoso Belt/Life(Or will Fierce suffice?)
AMK head (25WS acc or 15WS acc 2%dmg?)

Usukane Feet are not available yet, but are a long term goal, as is Tomoe.

I'd likely use these sets in a merit situation with 2x March + 2xMinuet/Chaos. ALSO in zerg events or things like Nyzul/Limbus/non-god stuff with only 2x March or just Haste.

What food should I be using in the above situations? Pizza obviously not a choice for birds, but is an option for the rest.

PS. Vegetto is my hero. <3 I dream to be a PentaSAM lke him some day~
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-15 10:44:02  
lol, I do well, but I'm not the best in any sense of the word, but thanks.

Pizza for pretty much everything but birds, like you said, and with your set up, crab sushi for birds. I'll be going out today and I'm watching a movie now, so I can do some math later, but since you'll be on a crab sushi build, you may need a lot less acc than you think in gear on birds for both TP and WS phase.
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 10:53:56  
The first step is to post pics since you are Mithra!
Quote:
(How do you make these show up as item sets and not just links?)

{itemset}109547{/itemset}

Number of item set is found in the link itself and with []s instead of {}s.
Quote:
TP set:


WS set:

TP set is currently a 6hit and could be a 5hit but would involve using Hachiman Kote+Sune-Ate, losing 6% haste (mainly) for 5 hit (providing 2/5 Penta hits connect). This is worth it but only by a bit... Usukane body/feet really make this a lot easier.

Fowling is good, Minuet also since you mentioned you will have Minuets. Tiphia Sting is a good option for your ammo/ranged slots to begin with. White Tathlum could open up more sTP options but doesn't look like an option at the moment.

I'd probably use Virtuoso/Life/Warwolf/Potent over Fierce Belt here.

I'd take the 25WSACC for head; worst case scenario it makes you suck less, best case scenario it means you can swap off other gear.

WS you'll want a Sea Gorget (or Love Torque) and depending on the rest of your gear, might be able to swap out the O Hat etc. You'll probably want to eat crab sushi on birdies and pizza everywhere else.

Bear in mind I am not a SAM so real SAMs will come in soon and tell me to gtfo!
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-15 10:56:03  
Quote:
Astrolabe would be a good "free" option for your ammo/ranged slots.
Astrolabe
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 10:58:42  
you messed up my ninja edit :(
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-15 11:00:18  
:)
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 11:15:00  
You guys are hilarious. <3

I had completely forgotten my need of a Shadow Gorget for a minute there, I'll have to do UFO's again(Ugh...) Love Torque is absolutely out of the question. Everyone seems to be afraid of Sea? I guess.

I was wondering about Warwolf vs Fierce Belt for the same reason as B.kote vs AF+1 hands(which I have). At what point are stats > att? Sadly I have no acc belt, so that requires a little more effort.

Edit: If my X-hit build is miffed, and using hachiman hands/feet would potentially fix it- Do I need to full-time one/both or only TP in them and WS in other things?
 Cerberus.Watanabie
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By Cerberus.Watanabie 2010-05-15 11:20:19  
Imo if the stat mod on the WS isnt 30%+ raw Acc/Atk will be more beneficial. The only exception is STR.

Edit: I'm talking, of course, about multi hit WS's.
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-15 11:22:02  
Bahamut.Aiyana said:
At what point are stats > att?

It's my understanding that you want to try and cap att and dex on g-colibri before doing str when using penta.

20% str mod is nothing really.
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 11:29:19  
No reason to cap dex(unless you mean acc) as Penta cannot crit and only has a 20% dex mod.
Since str is calculated twice during a WS, that makes str > dex from a pure damage standpoint(accuracy benefit from dex aside)
 Fenrir.Krazyrs
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By Fenrir.Krazyrs 2010-05-15 11:37:59  
my penta set isnt that expensive
merit wise:
8/8 Polearm Merits
5/5 sTP
5/5 Meditate
5/5 Overwhelm
4/5 Bash
1/5 Shikky

5 hit build


penta


Augments
AMK Head: STR+6, WS ACC+15
Foragers: DEX+2
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 11:57:27  
Still neeeeeed Mithra pics since I can't remember your name for some reason :(
Quote:
I was wondering about Warwolf vs Fierce Belt for the same reason as B.kote vs AF+1 hands(which I have). At what point are stats > att? Sadly I have no acc belt, so that requires a little more effort.

It's hard to put an exact point on it, but for the two examples you mentioned:

Warwolf vs Fierce: Remember 5STR gives you 3.75 Attack from the go, so you're looking at 5STR for WSC/fSTR, 5 DEX for WSC, 3.75acc for consistency vs ~11 Attack which is pretty easily a win for the Warwolf.

Bkote vs AF+1: STR7 DEX7 vs Attack22. STR7 => 5.25 Attack, DEX7 => 5.25 Accuracy so you're looking at ~16-17 Attack vs STR7 (WSC/fSTR), DEX7 (WSC) and 5.25 Acc - again I would comfortably take the stats.
Quote:
If my X-hit build is miffed, and using hachiman hands/feet would potentially fix it- Do I need to full-time one/both or only TP in them and WS in other things?

Just TP. I forgot something very important when doing the rough math on your xhit build (Store TP merits hurrrrr), but I'll give you a summary below:

Your current build has:
Traits/merits - +35
Rose Strap - +4
Chivalrous Chain - +1
Brutal Earring - +1
Ecphoria Ring - +1
Rajas Ring - +5
Total: 47

Base TP/hit on 480 delay Polearm: 13.0
Your TP/hit: 19.1 which is a 5hit if you land 4/5 hits of Penta (and you can swap out Ecphoria Ring/Chivalrous Chain during WS if you want).

Possible changes:
TP in Hachiman Kote and your total sTP becomes 55, for 20.1 tp/hit. You need 19.6 TP from Penta Thrust, or 51 sTP ... if you swap Hachiman Kote for AF+1 hands and WS in Hachiman Feet instead, you are now at 52 sTP. You can drop one more - WS gorget. This will make a true 5 hit which will ignore Feather Tickles and everything else. Note this setup becomes more limited if you have PCC instead of Chiv for TP.

I could go on but just some stuff to think about!
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-15 12:14:23  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Bkote vs AF 1: STR7 DEX7 vs Attack22. STR7 => 5.25 Attack, DEX7 => 5.25 Accuracy so you're looking at ~16-17 Attack vs STR7 (WSC/fSTR), DEX7 (WSC) and 5.25 Acc - again I would comfortably take the stats.

Would that not depend on the rest of your gear though? The att boost from beserk makes a huge difference to penta since its a 5hit ws. Assuming you had 110+ dex total from base+other slots and over 100str total the att would be better yeah?
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 12:17:15  
I don't think I've ever seen you in-game Raen, so I doubt Mithra pics (if I had any..) would help you remember. :( I also play at really odd hours anyway. If you don't play anymore(do you?) I wasn't around waaaay back when.

As for the stats vs att arguement. It seems fairly valid, but does that really consider SAM's B- rank in Polearm leaving the att stat much to be desired? Especially in a situation with either no att buffs (last scenario mentioned) or using full time sushi? Penta's horribly low stat modifiers (20% each of STR/DEX) doesn't really make stats as attractive unless the acc is that important from the DEX and with STR calculating twice. I guess it is hard to pin down.

The TP/hit build info was very helpful, thank you. ^^ Though, if I was able to obtain HQ Hachiman gloves that would let me drop 1 more sTP on the TP set yes? I'm assuming the Ecphoria for my Blood Ring at present, and later on Chiv for PCC? (I may be able to borrow the gloves for situational use..)

On a side note, I just saw the "Sample BBCode" at the bottom of the forum. I feel intelligent. /facepalm
 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2010-05-15 12:59:40  
My SAM gear isn't too great, but I feel like I do respectable damage on Greater Colibri with it. Normally doing around the 1k mark (800-1.2k).

TP


WS



There's a lot of things I can improve on there, but for the most part I feel it's fairly decent. 6-hit build and won't make any E-Peen worthy SS's, but it works!


EDIT: and that stupid smilo+1 is wrong again ¬_¬; That's meant to be Ame+1
 Shiva.Daimos
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By Shiva.Daimos 2010-05-15 13:02:32  
Most of that looks great Hitetsu, but I have one question.
Why switch to Smilodon+1 for a multi-hit WS?

I was under the impression that attack+ did far greater for damage than STR+ for multi-hits.

edit; eh...nvm
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 13:06:19  
Quote:
Would that not depend on the rest of your gear though? The att boost from beserk makes a huge difference to penta since its a 5hit ws. Assuming you had 110+ dex total from base+other slots and over 100str total the att would be better yeah?

Well it does depend on your other gear, yah; I can't give you a universal answer.
Quote:
As for the stats vs att arguement. It seems fairly valid, but does that really consider SAM's B- rank in Polearm leaving the att stat much to be desired? Especially in a situation with either no att buffs (last scenario mentioned) or using full time sushi? Penta's horribly low stat modifiers (20% each of STR/DEX) doesn't really make stats as attractive unless the acc is that important from the DEX and with STR calculating twice. I guess it is hard to pin down.

Yah, it's not that easy. Hopefully you'll be /war in most situations where you're using Polearm SAM which means Berserk covers the Attack deficiency nicely.

Basically, doing horribly rough math

AF+1 hands STR7/DEX7 = ~2-3 WSC and ~1-2fSTR. Worst case scenario this is about a 3% damage increase and best case about a 5% damage increase. Let's say ~4% as an average, at what Attack (using a very simplified representation of Attack's impact on damage) does 17 Attack give you 4% damage?

17/x = 0.04

therefore x = 425, so if your Attack > 425 then AF+1 is stronger offensively than BKotes... in reality, a bit higher since I'm ignoring level correction, different cRatio bounds and other horrible things. The accuracy is definitely useful though - it can either make you suck less or trade out other pieces for greater offensive stats than the difference between the pieces.
Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen you in-game Raen, so I doubt Mithra pics (if I had any..) would help you remember. :( I also play at really odd hours anyway. If you don't play anymore(do you?) I wasn't around waaaay back when.

I just want Mithra pics ; ; and yeah, I haven't been playing since September now... properly since late August. Been ages!
Quote:
Though, if I was able to obtain HQ Hachiman gloves that would let me drop 1 more sTP on the TP set yes?

Yup. If you want to do the calculations for yourself (Store TP is quite easy),

Base TP/hit of 480 Polearm: 13
* You simply multiply this figure by 1.(your Store TP)
* Chop off all decimals after the first, no rounding (13.29 = 13.2 etc).
This is your TP/hit, then:
* Multiply this figure by 4 [since you're working with a 5 hit build, which is 4 melee hits + 1 WS per cycle]
Calculate how much TP you need to generate during WS to make this 100%. Each extra hit of Penta Thrust gives you 1.(StoreTPamount) to 1 decimal place, remember.
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 13:24:27  
Quote:
17/x = 0.04

therefore x = 425, so if your Attack > 425 then AF+1 is stronger offensively than BKotes... in reality, a bit higher since I'm ignoring level correction, different cRatio bounds and other horrible things. The accuracy is definitely useful though - it can either make you suck less or trade out other pieces for greater offensive stats than the difference between the pieces.

This is really the deciding factor I believe, the ignored functions of the equation. >< Worst case scenario one can always make berserk up/down macros for different gearsets?

An odd piece of information on the Penta Thrust FFXIwiki discussion page states that Penta Thrust actually has an attack -penalty- that has to do with not capping cRatio when you normally would with a melee swing. Not stating this as gospel, but something to think about.

Thanks again for the easy TP formulae~ I'll have to bookmark this page now. Haha.
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 13:26:28  
Yeah, I dunno how they would be able to work that fact out on the wiki though <_< seems a bit odd that it would be that WS but no other.

And yeah, don't take the above as gospel because I did ignore a lot. Can micromanage with Berserk up/down if you want (will probably give best results) - but if you can use the accuracy in any way, AF+1 is gonna win by default.
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-15 14:04:00  
Quote:
17/x = 0.04 therefore x = 425, so if your Attack > 425 then AF 1 is stronger offensively than BKotes... in reality, a bit higher since I'm ignoring level correction, different cRatio bounds and other horrible things. The accuracy is definitely useful though - it can either make you suck less or trade out other pieces for greater offensive stats than the difference between the pieces.

That's what pretty much what I thought, once att is high enough stats push ahead. With beserk up I'm over 425 in my penta set so i'll keep using kote+1.


This is what I use. With beserk up and brd buffs i'm hitting 1.2k at least on g-colibri going up to 2k+.

 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 14:29:14  
In before eyeballing damage SAM that outgears me? <_<;;

Well at least it isn't "2300 average". Parser oh how I adore thee~
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 14:34:47  
So how about them Mithra pics?! You obviously don't have to if you are uncomfortable for whatever reason but Mithra are divine :(

And yeah, eyeballing damage is bad. The above set is good though, just needs a Shadow Gorget.
 Leviathan.Celestinia
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2010-05-15 14:44:19  
Yeah i'm eyeballing I dont have parser. but at least i'm eyeballing the ranges not giving a average of what I hit which would be stupid.
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-15 17:15:36  
Stats vs Attack is very situational.

Attack can be capped, and its pretty easy to do so on merit(ish) level mobs with just 1-2 attack buffs and Dia 2 or 3.

So to know which is better you need to do the maths for each mob and buff/debuff combination.

If you have to full time one piece then B/O.kotes, is probably your best bet.
 Odin.Lowblow
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By Odin.Lowblow 2010-05-15 17:19:36  
Penta build on sam is tricky.
You have to take into consideration what food you are eating.

Atk food. STack more acc. Acc food. STack more atk.
Sam has access to alot of nice pieces but its all situational.
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-15 17:25:52  
Pizza and Sushi are the only real options for Polearm SAM, although meat builds are possible on really weak stuff (or full Usu on birds).

 Hades.Stefanos
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By Hades.Stefanos 2010-05-15 17:35:18  
I don't think anyone has mentioned this fact yet, but with an Engetsuto, you can etch it and put on a Polearm weaponskill: Weapon Skill accuracy+ evolith on it. You'd just have to find a synergist to do it for you if you can't do it yourself when you have the evolith. Getting the evolith doesn't look too difficult, just kill a NM in SSG, I can't look up which at the moment.
 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-05-15 21:56:32  
Yes you can etch an Engetsuto with said evolith, but it was mentioned in another post that Tomoe will still outparse that Engetsuto in the long run due to acc and WS frequency. Engetsuto(Not +1) would be useful for the sTP to reach a 5hit slightly easier.
It may be cheap on my server at ~120k right now, but I'd rather not augment it so it cannot be resold - and Gondo is free! Besides, I think Engetsuto looks lame.
Quote:
Attack can be capped, and its pretty easy to do so on merit(ish) level mobs with just 1-2 attack buffs and Dia 2 or 3.
I don't see att being possible to cap on anything but birds with berserk up. What about non-birds, or limbus/einherjar mobs without att buffs? Situational.
Kotes seem useful for more situations, but having both didn't hurt. Micromanagement FTW!

And Raen - I'll think about it~
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-05-15 22:02:01  
>:3!
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