New Keitonotachi Trials

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New Keitonotachi trials
 Titan.Eiryn
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By Titan.Eiryn 2010-09-16 15:26:49  
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said:
Well without AF3 you need Rose. And yes, sushi has always been one of the best foods for SAM since attack does pretty much nothing from them.

Attack does nothing for a Samurai? lol

Zanshin merits + Ikoshoten means you don't have to have as much acc in your tp gear, can get away with eating meat/curry while wearing askar body, and WHEN your zanshin procs(which it does a lot at a higher acc rate than a normal swing) you get more TP... thats the difference between a cookie cutter Samurai and a bandwagon Samurai.

High attack as well as str for YGK and now Ageha can make a huge difference in almost any battle.
 Leviathan.Eburo
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By Leviathan.Eburo 2010-09-16 15:29:39  
Um.. attack is great for rana as well, despite everyone's denial, rana with a high attack build often outdoes gekko at 100tp with berserk up.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-16 15:30:32  
Titan.Eiryn said:
thats the difference between a cookie cutter Samurai and a bandwagon Samurai.


so sams that build around zanshin are cookie cutter and ones that just stack to much are bandwagon? wtf are you smoking? lol NOBODY really builds solely around Zanshin *cough Nabis*....
 Titan.Eiryn
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By Titan.Eiryn 2010-09-16 15:45:57  
Ifrit.Eikechi said:
Titan.Eiryn said:
thats the difference between a cookie cutter Samurai and a bandwagon Samurai.


so sams that build around zanshin are cookie cutter and ones that just stack to much are bandwagon? wtf are you smoking? lol NOBODY really builds solely around Zanshin *cough Nabis*....

I don't mean to build around Zanshin, I just mean to take it into account when you think of tossing away askar body or not eating meat/curry.

Look at it this way:
1000 swings at ~90% accuracy = 100 misses
100 misses with 50% Zanshin(45% trait+5% merit) = 50 Zanshin procs
50 Zanshin procs with 95% Acc(original 90% + 35acc from zanshin) = 47 Zanshin hits that can give a lot more TP
out of the original 1000 swings, you hit 947(~95%) hits due to zanshin

And that is if you really dumb down your accuracy. With askar body, turban and such as well as eating meat/curry I hit about 96%(over the cap if you notice) accuracy. Not to mention that parser doesn't recognize the difference between zanshin and a miss. Numerical proof as to why I say lolhauby and lolsushi.
 Quetzalcoatl.Giazz
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By Quetzalcoatl.Giazz 2010-09-16 15:46:35  
You shouldn't be stacking attack on Gekko due to the 100% Cratio bonus that the WS has. That's what is meant by pure attack food doing pretty much nothing for y/g/k.

On most targets you will have capped attack on Gekko. This is why you mostly gear with pure STR since it is a 75% modifier etc.

Attack does help Rana, but yeah...

Also, Zanshin merits? ...really?
 Titan.Eiryn
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By Titan.Eiryn 2010-09-16 15:50:13  
Quetzalcoatl.Giazz said:
You shouldn't be stacking attack on Gekko due to the 100% Cratio bonus that the WS has. That's what is meant by pure attack food doing pretty much nothing for y/g/k.

On most targets you will have capped attack on Gekko. This is why you mostly gear with pure STR since it is a 75% modifier etc.

Attack does help Rana, but yeah...

Also, Zanshin merits? ...really?

Better than wasting them on a 30s less meditate recast when half the time people forget about it or have 100 other things to worry about. Zanshin merits are a sure thing that will happen whether you think about it, or not.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-16 15:55:00  
Titan.Eiryn said:
I don't mean to build around Zanshin, I just mean to take it into account when you think of tossing away askar body or not eating meat/curry.

Look at it this way:
1000 swings at ~90% accuracy = 100 misses
100 misses with 50% Zanshin(45% trait+5% merit) = 50 Zanshin procs
50 Zanshin procs with 95% Acc(original 90% + 35acc from zanshin) = 47 Zanshin hits that can give a lot more TP
out of the original 1000 swings, you hit 947(~95%) hits due to zanshin

And that is if you really dumb down your accuracy. With askar body, turban and such as well as eating meat/curry I hit about 96%(over the cap if you notice) accuracy. Not to mention that parser doesn't recognize the difference between zanshin and a miss. Numerical proof as to why I say lolhauby and lolsushi.


there are just so many things wrong with that.... I used to merit zanshin, til I actually got smart and realized it has a high enough proc rate ANYWAYS to not matter if there is 5% more.... 5/5 meditate is a must and so is 5/5 store tp, basically...because it lets you 5/6 hit GKs that you can't without those merits... what is your build? 7 hit? or do you also TP in hachiman kote? lol Atm I'm a full perle sam, because I dont have haidate (and i'm working on my Unkai pieces) and I can still 6 hit my Keitonotachi (WS+ path) very easily...while maintaining my 18% haste. Why? Cuz of my merits... if you dont get those 5/5 STP merits you have a much harder time with that last hit on the build.. (btw you can't "over cap acc...if you swing at 96% acc you're bullshitting, cuz the cap is 95...so no matter what you do, you won't proc 96%)

drop your zanshin merits like i did, get your STP merits and work on your build...Not tryin to be a douche, but you sound like you know it all when saying "lolhauby" when its actually a really good item for sam, as is perle hauberk...
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-16 15:55:47  
Titan.Eiryn said:
Better than wasting them on a 30s less meditate recast when half the time people forget about it or have 100 other things to worry about. Zanshin merits are a sure thing that will happen whether you think about it, or not.


LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? no...no its not... 30s faster meditates are a HUGE boost to your DoT on Sam.....
[+]
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 15:58:11  
Titan.Eiryn said:
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said:
Well without AF3 you need Rose. And yes, sushi has always been one of the best foods for SAM since attack does pretty much nothing from them.
Attack does nothing for a Samurai? lol Zanshin merits + Ikoshoten means you don't have to have as much acc in your tp gear, can get away with eating meat/curry while wearing askar body, and WHEN your zanshin procs(which it does a lot at a higher acc rate than a normal swing) you get more TP... thats the difference between a cookie cutter Samurai and a bandwagon Samurai. High attack as well as str for YGK and now Ageha can make a huge difference in almost any battle.

Yes, attack has minimal effect on y/g/k, only other WS like Rana which is so variable it isn't worth it. The exception is ridiculously high def enemies like JoL. This discussion has been done to death already. Pizza does almost nothing for SAM outside of TP phase (which at a 5hit build is a ridiculous small amount of time), Sushi at least offers 5STR, with Red curry being king.
Relying on Zanshin for TP is just HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. For it to be beneficial in the slightest you have to have a low hit rate, to the point that the subsequent +35 acc swing also runs a high risk of missing. In which case acc food is needed, which in turns hurts the effectiveness of Zanshin. I like Zanshin when it procs, but advocating it over using accuracy food so you can use attack food on a job that the majority of the time doesn't need it, is just confusing.
 Quetzalcoatl.Giazz
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By Quetzalcoatl.Giazz 2010-09-16 16:08:27  
Titan.Eiryn said:
Quetzalcoatl.Giazz said:
You shouldn't be stacking attack on Gekko due to the 100% Cratio bonus that the WS has. That's what is meant by pure attack food doing pretty much nothing for y/g/k.

On most targets you will have capped attack on Gekko. This is why you mostly gear with pure STR since it is a 75% modifier etc.

Attack does help Rana, but yeah...

Also, Zanshin merits? ...really?

Better than wasting them on a 30s less meditate recast when half the time people forget about it or have 100 other things to worry about.

Nope. I'm not trying to be mean, but seriously... you just gave a really bad excuse.

30sec faster meditate should give you more TP/dmg over time, IF you're using it properly... it should be better than zanshin merits anyway.

Titan.Eiryn said:
Zanshin merits are a sure thing that will happen whether you think about it, or not.

Zanshin merits wouldn't matter unless you have really low accuracy, which you should aim not to have. At high accuracy already, they become pointless.

Also hit rate cap is 95%.

Zanshin is nice when it procs, but you shouldn't be building your gear sets around zanshin. It's not optimal.
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By Titan.Eiryn 2010-09-16 16:09:29  
Well, of course I have 5/5 Store TP. Now that is really a situation where a Sam should find another job if they don't have those. I state my arguments based on the assumption that every Sam in their right mind had 5/5 Store TP.

At the moment I have a 6 hit very very close to a 5hit. AF3 will take care of that and still keep max haste a Sam can have at the moment. With AF3 and a couple other newer pieces I will have an easy 25% haste AND 5hit.

Also Zanshin is not taken into account with the 95% hitrate cap. It goes beyond it because it has nothing to do with the initial hit except that it procs when you miss. That is one of many reasons why Samurai is so broken. With merits a 90% accuracy samurai = ~95% hitrate samurai. I do agree that 5% is not the HUGE difference in numbers, but when it comes to NMs and high evasion mobs where you want to try to keep your 5/6 hit and high haste build, this is where every % of Zanshin really shines. Pearl hauberk is decent but you still lose that store TP and that DA is nice too when matched with pole grip and brutal.

My main point was that that 5% extra zanshin can make up for the difference between having a body with acc and having a body with 2 other amazing stats to have for TP build.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 16:10:48  
Titan.Eiryn said:
Look at it this way: 1000 swings at ~90% accuracy = 100 misses 100 misses with 50% Zanshin(45% trait+5% merit) = 50 Zanshin procs 50 Zanshin procs with 95% Acc(original 90% + 35acc from zanshin) = 47 Zanshin hits that can give a lot more TP out of the original 1000 swings, you hit 947(~95%)

Astounding. Really. Let's use your very own calculation here.

Using Sushi from 90% Hit rate will kick you up to 95%.

1000 Swings.
50 Miss.
45% Are affected by Zanshin. (22)
5% Miss (1)

Total additional Swings that hit =72.

72 > 47.

So now lets assume 35tp/hit from Zanshin hits, vs the 72 20tp hits from Sushi.

35*47 = 16 WS and 45 TP.
20*72 = 14 WS and 40 tp.

Aside from that those two WS are likely being =/= to the DoT of 25 melee swings.

With 95% hit rate (sushi), 14WS*.05 = 0.7 > 0 misses.
With 90% hit rate (zanshin has no effect here), 16*.10 = 1.6 > 1 miss

TP Phase DoT from 25 melee swings beats 1 additional WS. Lowering your accuracy further to make Zanshin proc more would just have detrimental results. I haven't even factored the additional Meditates you'd be recieving within those 1000 swings so yeah...
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 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-16 16:11:36  
Titan.Eiryn said:
Well, of course I have 5/5 Store TP. Now that is really a situation where a Sam should find another job if they don't have those. I state my arguments based on the assumption that every Sam in their right mind had 5/5 Store TP.

At the moment I have a 6 hit very very close to a 5hit. AF3 will take care of that and still keep max haste a Sam can have at the moment. With AF3 and a couple other newer pieces I will have an easy 25% haste AND 5hit.


plz post your gear set....

because to my knowledge...unless you have AF3+2 you can't even hit the 26% haste cap....and thats sacrificing some STPs for an "easy 5 hit"
head: 5% turban
body: you have to have usukane
hands: you have to have dusk+1 (4%)
waist: you have to have bullwhip belt (7%)
legs: B Haidate (5%)
feet: Usukane for the STP (2%)

5 +5 = 10 + 4 = 14 + 7 = 21 +2 = 23....thats not even haste cap..so wtf are you smoking? lets go ahead and put in sarutobi kyahan/fuma for 24% haste... STILL NOT CAPPED..... so how the HELL do you have 25% haste in gear, and still get a 5 hit? plz explain this... because I just plugged in the values for the highest % haste gears sam can wear....unless you got the new 7% haste pants....

edit: and the only way to account for more haste would be 1% off AF3+2 kabuto, as the AF3+2 legs have a value of 4% haste with "enhance hasso" which atm seems to be broken... so do explain plz..
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 16:42:17  
Uh, /DRG which GK should be using. 5% Haste. Turban/Haidate/Earring = 15. Vbelt +6 > 21. Dusk +3 > 24, Usu feet > 26%. You can use all of that and have a 5hit.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-16 16:43:35  
I forgot about the /drg earring..I never use /drg thats why I guess

I would still like to know exactly what their gear set/sub is though...cuz quite frankly, if they are boasting about zanshin being that great and all, they might have too much acc to begin with lol cuz that set I posted sports a lot..
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-09-16 19:59:20  
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said:
Titan.Eiryn said:
Look at it this way: 1000 swings at ~90% accuracy = 100 misses 100 misses with 50% Zanshin(45% trait+5% merit) = 50 Zanshin procs 50 Zanshin procs with 95% Acc(original 90% + 35acc from zanshin) = 47 Zanshin hits that can give a lot more TP out of the original 1000 swings, you hit 947(~95%)
Astounding. Really. Let's use your very own calculation here. Using Sushi from 90% Hit rate will kick you up to 95%. 1000 Swings. 50 Miss. 45% Are affected by Zanshin. (22) 5% Miss (1) Total additional Swings that hit =72. 72 > 47. So now lets assume 35tp/hit from Zanshin hits, vs the 72 20tp hits from Sushi. 35*47 = 16 WS and 45 TP. 20*72 = 14 WS and 40 tp. Aside from that those two WS are likely being =/= to the DoT of 25 melee swings. With 95% hit rate (sushi), 14WS*.05 = 0.7 > 0 misses. With 90% hit rate (zanshin has no effect here), 16*.10 = 1.6 > 1 miss TP Phase DoT from 25 melee swings beats 1 additional WS. Lowering your accuracy further to make Zanshin proc more would just have detrimental results. I haven't even factored the additional Meditates you'd be recieving within those 1000 swings so yeah...
This is really oversimplified in a lot of ways, but just a few things to nitpick.

If you know anything about how to do a build that uses zanshin, zanshin hits in a 5 hit should be giving 40~ tp, not 35. Also, applying the 90% hit rate to WS's doesn't make sense since we've gone over and over about how WS's get pretty much auto capped on acc unless you're flashed or fighting something WAY too high. Food isn't accounted for either since you'd be getting a good chunk of extra atk and possibly str that would affect your melee pretty much all the time and your ws's depending on the situation.

On the other hand, even with ikkishoten merits, lower acc still = less damage, it simply makes the slope a lot shallower which allows you to lose some acc in order to gain some other beneficial stat (haste/atk/etc).
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-09-16 20:04:06  
Also, about meditate merits, are they bad? No, but in the long run they only give you an extra 4 ws's an hr assuming you always use it exactly on the timer. Other than store tp, what you pick for cat 1 merits really isn't that important. I personally lean a little towards third eye merits but it really depends on what you do with SAM.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 20:12:42  
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
This is really oversimplified in a lot of ways, but just a few things to nitpick. If you know anything about how to do a build that uses zanshin, zanshin hits in a 5 hit should be giving 40~ tp, not 35. Also, applying the 90% hit rate to WS's doesn't make sense since we've gone over and over about how WS's get pretty much auto capped on acc unless you're flashed or fighting something WAY too high. Food isn't accounted for either since you'd be getting a good chunk of extra atk and possibly str that would affect your melee pretty much all the time and your ws's depending on the situation. On the other hand, even with ikkishoten merits, lower acc still = less damage, it simply makes the slope a lot shallower which allows you to lose some acc in order to gain some other beneficial stat (haste/atk/etc).

K, so 3 additional WS ignoring the boost from Meditate recast. Still doesn't make Zanshin remotely useful, I don't disagree with Third Eye merits though. And again, attack is almost useless, especially since the lower your xhit goes the less DoT you have.
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-09-16 20:16:58  
Are we talking about zanshin merits being not useful or zanshin as a trait being not useful? Just to clarify. Technically your post I responded to seems more about using meriting ikishoten or not rather than zanshin.

Also, since we've started to move away from hagun to higher dmg weapons, dot starts to play a bigger factor in total dmg unless they come out with some new godly WS. You can't just brush off the effects of atk totally.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-09-16 20:18:23  
I'd still eat Pizza over Sushi for those times I'd use Rana > Gekko for Darkness. Unless I really needed the accuracy (unlikely).
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 20:21:24  
Zanshin merits. Ikki is nice, but gearing to miss to have Zanshin proc is just ugh.

Increasing D rating would all but maybe even out the DoT lost from extra hit you no longer need. I wouldn't say it's significant, and short of those few mobs with HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE defence, I wouldn't worry about attack much. Optomising for different fights etc.
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-09-16 20:30:12  
Well, I'd have to say I don't much like zanshin merits either but like I said, your original post seems more anti ikishoten than anything. And I really HATE the phrase gearing to miss, it's so HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. It's not like you purposely lower your acc, you're simply adding other beneficial stats with the understanding that iki/zanshin mostly makes up for your acc loss.

The thing is, higher D rating on the weapon also means that your ws dmg is weaker by a % since your ws boost is a smaller % increase. And I dunno, regular mobs in abyssea can get pretty high lvl, I don't think even with gekko that you auto cap atk unless you also have at least chaos.
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-09-16 20:34:30  
Nope, just the Zanshin merits, I like Ikki when it procs during a capped hit rate miss, effectively giving you two hits TP worth. I did find Colibri in Misareaux had high def myself, though I haven't hit 85 yet so it might just be me.