Better Relic Now?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dark Knight » Better relic now?
Better relic now?
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 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2011-03-01 19:40:14  
Apoc or Rag @ 90?
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By Serj 2011-03-01 19:48:40  
Rag always looked cooler, and therefore is better.

inb4 empyrean or gtfo
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 Leviathan.Hohenheim
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By Leviathan.Hohenheim 2011-03-01 19:50:57  
Doesn't Rag have one of the highest dps now with RR and all the extra crit hit it gets with wep and scourge? Thought I heard something like it, though I don't know the specifics.
 Lakshmi.Zaps
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By Lakshmi.Zaps 2011-03-01 19:51:20  
emp or gtf......damnit
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-03-01 20:04:31  
you're already floating around 60-70%-ish critical hit rate even with just gear, cruor buffs and razed ruins; sacrificing a respectable weapon skill average for merely capping off critical hit rate for jobs that don't primarily specialize in white damage (dps), is not a good way of spending 200m (nor a good idea alone as is)

apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans
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 Leviathan.Hohenheim
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By Leviathan.Hohenheim 2011-03-01 20:06:03  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
you're already floating around 60-70%-ish critical hit rate even with just gear, cruor buffs and razed ruins; sacrificing a respectable weapon skill average for merely capping off critical hit rate for jobs that don't primarily specialize in white damage (dps), is not a good way of spending 200m (nor a good idea alone as is)

apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans

I don't know drk gear, but where are you getting 60-70%? RR+crit from dex is 50%, where is this 10-20% in gear coming from?
 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2011-03-01 20:08:01  
yeah i'm not sure anymore, cata is still great for tanking isnt it? and its haste aftermath isn't as good as it used to be (or so im told)
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-01 20:09:15  
Cerberus.Zandra said:
yeah i'm not sure anymore, cata is still great for tanking isnt it? and its haste aftermath isn't as good as it used to be (or so im told)
When mages have bottomless pits of MP? You may as well just cap haste gear and use a better ws, lol.
 Lakshmi.Tronsy
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By Lakshmi.Tronsy 2011-03-01 20:11:34  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
you're already floating around 60-70%-ish critical hit rate even with just gear, cruor buffs and razed ruins; sacrificing a respectable weapon skill average for merely capping off critical hit rate for jobs that don't primarily specialize in white damage (dps), is not a good way of spending 200m (nor a good idea alone as is)

apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans
What do Emperyan's have to do with Apoc in relation to other relics?

And now that DRK can cap gear haste on its own doesn't it severely diminish the usefulness of Apoc anyways?
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-03-01 20:11:35  
Leviathan.Hohenheim said:
I don't know drk gear, but where are you getting 60-70%? RR+crit from dex is 50%, where is this 10-20% in gear coming from?

base dexterity, gear dexterity, cruor buffs and razed ruins

if we were fighting something that was actually steadily above our current level, i'd agree on 50%, but it's most certainly at least 60% due to the easily-manipulated situations we've got currently in the game
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 Leviathan.Hohenheim
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By Leviathan.Hohenheim 2011-03-01 20:13:32  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Leviathan.Hohenheim said:
I don't know drk gear, but where are you getting 60-70%? RR+crit from dex is 50%, where is this 10-20% in gear coming from?

base dexterity, gear dexterity, cruor buffs and razed ruins

if we were fighting something that was actually steadily above our current level, i'd agree on 50%, but it's most certainly at least 60% due to the easily-manipulated situations we've got currently in the game

I though all dex counted together to cap you at Ddex for 20% crit rate. So, where's this extra 10% still, and then you even said 70%, where's that extra 10%? I'm just curious.
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 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2011-03-01 20:14:11  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Cerberus.Zandra said:
yeah i'm not sure anymore, cata is still great for tanking isnt it? and its haste aftermath isn't as good as it used to be (or so im told)
When mages have bottomless pits of MP? You may as well just cap haste gear and use a better ws, lol.

well I would like to plan for the game outside of Abyssea to... when mages don't have the bottomless pit of mp

Serj said:
Rag always looked cooler, and therefore is better.

Funny you should mention that, I absolutely LOATHE how a Female Hume holds a Scythe... GS has a much better stance
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-03-01 20:15:06  
Lakshmi.Tronsy said:
What do Empyreans have to do with Apoc in relation to other relics?

relics suck, etc?

Lakshmi.Tronsy said:
And now that DRK can cap gear haste on its own doesn't it severely diminish the usefulness of Apoc anyways?

drk even at 75 over-capped on haste if you didn't swap some haste equipment out while aftermath was up (obviously), and even now i believe there's a few pieces that can manipulate the aftermath with, though sadly i don't believe to its' full potential with the current equipment out, hence stated "in my opinion"
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By Serj 2011-03-01 20:16:57  
Leviathan.Hohenheim said:
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
you're already floating around 60-70%-ish critical hit rate even with just gear, cruor buffs and razed ruins; sacrificing a respectable weapon skill average for merely capping off critical hit rate for jobs that don't primarily specialize in white damage (dps), is not a good way of spending 200m (nor a good idea alone as is)

apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans

I don't know drk gear, but where are you getting 60-70%? RR+crit from dex is 50%, where is this 10-20% in gear coming from?

Merits would be 4%, then gear, then other atmas. On mnk, I use GH often which (iirc) is 20%. Puts me at 74% crit, then add on impetus and I'm 75-95%.

...wtf job forum is this? Drk?


Cerberus.Zandra said:
yeah i'm not sure anymore, cata is still great for tanking isnt it? and its haste aftermath isn't as good as it used to be (or so im told)

I don't think the AM from cata is worth it anymore since the haste you get to cap on is generally paired with other desirable attributes that would be used for normal cata-AM sets. I guess you could take off... ace's legs and blitz or something.



Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
you're already floating around 60-70%-ish critical hit rate even with just gear, cruor buffs and razed ruins; sacrificing a respectable weapon skill average for merely capping off critical hit rate for jobs that don't primarily specialize in white damage (dps), is not a good way of spending 200m (nor a good idea alone as is)

apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans


When (if? IF?!?!) we come out of abyssea, Ragnarok will be a pretty beastly weapon. All relic ws are getting a boost, so scourge won't suck complete ***, and with AM and crit hit rate V or whatever, you can be at 60%+ crit rate. That might mean something on high def mobs in the... future..
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By Serj 2011-03-01 20:18:57  
***. All. Of. You.

Spend time writing out a longish post to have everything be said by several other people before I hit submit.
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-03-01 20:18:58  
Leviathan.Hohenheim said:
I though all dex counted together to cap you at Ddex for 20% crit rate.

from my understanding, it doesn't, though mister tigercreamvegettosodawoods could answer that question more thoroughly since he's here atm
 Ramuh.Yarly
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By Ramuh.Yarly 2011-03-01 20:19:20  
Leviathan.Hohenheim said:

I though all dex counted together to cap you at Ddex for 20% crit rate. So, where's this extra 10% still, and then you even said 70%, where's that extra 10%? I'm just curious.

30 from rr
20 from dex
4 from merits
4 from bale cuirass +2

Almost 60% and I'm sure there will be more gear soon enough.

 Lakshmi.Tronsy
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By Lakshmi.Tronsy 2011-03-01 20:26:43  
Quote:
apocalypse is still undeniably the better relic in my opinion, but even then, it's not much better than the other relics currently altogether thanks to a little thing we like to call empyreans

Empyrean weapons have absolutley no bearing whatsoever on whether apoc is better or worse then other relics is what i am saying.

And sadly yes most relics have been smashed by the Empyrean counter parts (at least for now)

My point about Cata haste was at least to my understanding it was the ONLY way a DRK could cap haste at 75, which is obviously not the case anymore hence the usefulness of Apoc being greatly diminished.

Not a DRK so please correct me if i am wrong
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-01 20:28:43  
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well I would like to plan for the game outside of Abyssea to... when mages don't have the bottomless pit of mp

Whm can wear 5 mp/tic base in refresh gear (2 body, 1 hands/feet, 1 wep, one hairpin), brd/rdm support puts that at +6 refresh II, brd is 3 and 2, but the +1 ballad instrument, +1 on af3+2 puts that to +5 +4 (correct me if I'm wrong), for +9

9 + 6 + 5 = 20. I'd assume the enhances refresh on af3+2 would give +1? Assuming that, 21 mp/tic.

I'd say outside of Abyssea is a bottomless pit of MP as well.
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By Serj 2011-03-01 20:31:21  
You're forgetting about af3+2 pants. On top of possible sublimation or convert.

Edit: And refresh pants!
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-03-01 20:31:21  
Lakshmi.Tronsy said:
My point about Cata haste was at least to my understanding it was the ONLY way a DRK could cap haste at 75, which is obviously not the case anymore hence the usefulness of Apoc being greatly diminished.

yes, apocalypse aftermath was the only way you could cap haste on drk at 75, but you were already at 21% without the aftermath as long as you didn't gear like a retard, therefore it's always technically only been a 4.6% haste increase with 2% double attack, some accuracy, and some other minor statistics that weren't entirely notable (meanwhile other jerbs such as war could already hit 24% from gear alone)
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-01 20:32:35  
Serj said:
You're forgetting about af3+2 pants. On top of possible sublimation or convert.
not going to have sublimation w/ refresh II and I left out the other 2 points just because 21/tic on its own is valid to be called a bottomless pit of mp, lol.
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By Serj 2011-03-01 20:34:26  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Serj said:
You're forgetting about af3+2 pants. On top of possible sublimation or convert.
not going to have sublimation w/ refresh II and I left out the other 2 points just because 21/tic on its own is valid to be called a bottomless pit of mp, lol.

(refresh pants)
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-03-01 20:38:03  
Rag is stronger than Apoc now in my personal opinion.

Scourge is actually stronger than Catastrophe as well.

Scourge has 3.00 FTP, Cata is 2.75. (im not sure what the 90 versions are) Neither are STR mods either. Cata is 40% INT/AGI, Scourge is 40% MND/CHR.

If comparing a 6-hit Apoc Build to a 7-Hit Rag, Ragnarok actually builds TP faster than Apocalypse with an extra swing, Rags 7-hit TP gain is comparable to that of a 501 Delay scythes 6-hit.

If comparing a 5-hit apoc, to a 6-hit Rag, then Apoc only builds TP .3 Seconds faster than Rag would at capped haste fully buffed.

The thing that really kills Apoc is that you can Cap haste without the aftermath now, which makes it nowhere near as powerful as it used to be at 75, it no longer has that massive advantage it had over other DRK weapons.

Stronger DPS, Crit rate, an Extra Swing in the TP phase, and a stronger WS are going to end up overwhelming Apocalypse.

SE really needs to change Apocs AM into JA haste, that is the only thing in my strong opinion that would save the weapon because at the moment it is pretty garbage.

My alt has apocalypse and I just dont even care for the weapon anymore.
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 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2011-03-01 20:38:48  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Quote:
well I would like to plan for the game outside of Abyssea to... when mages don't have the bottomless pit of mp

Whm can wear 5 mp/tic base in refresh gear (2 body, 1 hands/feet, 1 wep, one hairpin), brd/rdm support puts that at +6 refresh II, brd is 3 and 2, but the +1 ballad instrument, +1 on af3+2 puts that to +5 +4 (correct me if I'm wrong), for +9

9 + 6 + 5 = 20. I'd assume the enhances refresh on af3+2 would give +1? Assuming that, 21 mp/tic.

I'd say outside of Abyssea is a bottomless pit of MP as well.

Dont forget Evoker's Roll add another 4...

My point being that we used to have ever lasting MP setups before aby as well, but it isn't always available
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-01 20:49:24  
Well, w/o atmas, rdm and brd are going to be standard. Elegy and slow II have always been essential to key fights pre abyssea, so no reason to have less than the amount of refresh described in my previous post unless you're plain fighting something that's weak as ***to begin with, which you wouldn't have any MP issues on.

I'm sure Thorny mathed out something w/ refresh atma (which we don't have but he didn't use buffs in the mix) on a whm doing literally nothing but shitting cure 5 at every recast would take 20 mins to run out of mp. (w/ whm af3+2 legs)
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-03-01 20:57:42  
Just to point out, with Apoc, you can Cap Haste and use full EAF+2 armor during Aftermath, which significantly boosts the Rate of the Effect's activation, right now that's about the only thing Apoc does that's spectacular, beyond having the awesome Drain Effect of Catastrophe itself.

Apoc fTP is reported to be around 3.7 Now at the 90 Version, not sure about Scourge, probably 4.25, but that's unsubstantiated.


I'd honestly say go with Apocalypse though, if you really want a Greatsword (Assuming you don't mind dropping Warrior compatibility) just do Caladbolg, which is currently better (May not be the case in the future) but Apocalypse is still a game-changer for Dark Knight. The boost in Damage also boosted the Drain Effect on Catastrophe, that's not something that should be overlooked.
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-01 21:00:53  
From what I have seen in BG's testing threads, the FTP are 100% unchanged on the lv 90 version. It's just a straight +x% multiplier. (I forgot the % but I think it was 25?)

So if it woulda done 1k dmg, it would do 1,250 instead.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-03-01 21:02:34  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
From what I have seen in BG's testing threads, the FTP are 100% unchanged on the lv 90 version. It's just a straight +x% multiplier. (I forgot the % but I think it was 25?)

So if it woulda done 1k dmg, it would do 1,250 instead.

Ah, lolwikinfo.


That would mean the 90 Relics probably have a hidden Latent Effect of WSDMG+x%, with the latent activated by using the Relic WS then, at least in terms of functionality?
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-03-01 21:02:44  
Pretty sure its 25%
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