Gungnir Gone Wild!

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Gungnir gone wild!
Gungnir gone wild!
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 Titan.Lillica
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By Titan.Lillica 2011-03-23 02:37:45  
Remora.Dodu said:
Why the *** did you come here asking for advice when you're not listening to it?

Sixth.Grade.Mathematics.

Woah woah woah. Math?



You need to recognize the miracles of DA brah!
Scientists just be lying with math yo, and gettin me pissed!
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 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:38:36  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me
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 Alexander.Xgalahadx
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By Alexander.Xgalahadx 2011-03-23 02:40:51  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 02:42:15  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me
Your experience sucks, lol.

/war isn't better than /sam.

Also, you don't even have haste the spell cast on you? If you don't have that much, why are you even on a DD job?
 Remora.Dodu
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By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:43:00  
And when did /WAR start giving you 23% DA?

Also, lol@ 23% DA being a 23% increase in Drakesbane.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Garru
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By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 02:43:36  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me

I think you're intentionally not counting haste toward WS frequency, which indirectly increases your total WS damage but meh. It's okay to have your own playstyle etc. but you shouldn't asked to get mathed up and then try to convince everyone that their logic is wrong.
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By seiri 2011-03-23 02:43:48  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me

DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.

Also from eyeballing you wont get an accurate comparison. /WAR will show the biggest WS numbers for certain, due to attack bonus, berserk, DA etc, but /SAM will win due to frequency.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 02:43:57  
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
Also correct, 23% DA is only a 23% increase when comparing it to 0% DA. Compare the DA on /sam to the DA on /war for a more correct comparative value.

Also, it's much less than x% on WS damage because double attacks are worth less damage in a WS than the main attack, where as a DA during a melee attack round is worth the same.
 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:45:31  
h
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.
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By seiri 2011-03-23 02:46:53  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
h
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.

DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:47:47  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
Also correct, 23% DA is only a 23% increase when comparing it to 0% DA. Compare the DA on /sam to the DA on /war for a more correct comparative value.

Also, it's much less than x% on WS damage because double attacks are worth less damage in a WS than the main attack, where as a DA during a melee attack round is worth the same.
i have 5% DA in my /SAM set, 23-5 = 18 :/
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 Remora.Dodu
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By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:48:00  
Christ. Stop saying that 23% DA is a benefit of being /WAR. You're getting less than 10% by being /WAR.

And in addition to the fact that haste is an exponential increase to your TP damage, its also directly translated as an increase in your WS damage, unlike DA, which is drastically diminished when applied to WS damage.
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 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:49:53  
seiri said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
h
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.

DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
never heard that before. i'll believe you though. i'm in no way trying to argue that DA is better than haste. i just don't have the option. i'm just saying that building on the DA i have with /WAR increases my damage more than trying to shine the low haste build i'd have /SAM
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By Wafflechan 2011-03-23 02:50:35  
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 Quetzalcoatl.Garru
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By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 02:51:09  
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:


10% double can only beat 10% haste if you're capped completely which is nigh impossible in most situations without /sam.

The Haste vs. DA debate should have ended here.
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 Alexander.Xgalahadx
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By Alexander.Xgalahadx 2011-03-23 02:51:16  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
seiri said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
h
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
Shiva.Cerderic said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit?
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.

DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
never heard that before. i'll believe you though. i'm in no way trying to argue that DA is better than haste. i just don't have the option. i'm just saying that building on the DA i have with /WAR increases my damage more than trying to shine the low haste build i'd have /SAM
Double attack works like this.

Assume a base rate of 100 swings.

Now add 1%

101 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/100) 1%

Now add 1%

102 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/101) 0.99%

Now add 1%

103 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/102) 0.98%

And so on
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 Remora.Dodu
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By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:51:54  
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with <10% DA than with >10% Haste?
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 Asura.Arkanethered
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-03-23 02:52:48  
Wafflechan said:

Takes time to proc
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 Titan.Gaiarorshack
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By Titan.Gaiarorshack 2011-03-23 02:59:05  
seiri said:
DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
seiri said:

DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.
It gives decreasing returns compared to the previous not compared to the base .
and it has decreasing returns from the first percentage.
23% DA is still 23% more swings

You clearly do not understand the reason/math behind this and are just copying what everyone else is saying, without knowing why it is so

Shiva.Cerderic said:
and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
No you have to count in the extra swing does NOT have an increased fTP so it will be less than 25% increase.
and increased dmg from elemental ws gorgets and belt is not added to your extra hit
However extra attack that comes from haste does, since it a real extra ws.


im not debating what setup is best. just clearing out what apears to be some wrong/misunderstood facts to the best of my knowledge.
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 Titan.Gaiarorshack
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By Titan.Gaiarorshack 2011-03-23 03:01:23  
Remora.Dodu said:
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with >10% DA than with <10% Haste?

So erm 50%DA is not better than 1% haste ?
more than 10% DA CAN be better than less than 10% haste
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:03:55  
Quote:
23% DA is still 23% more swings
Only when compared to 0% DA.

Unless he wears no DA gear, this will never be the case.

There is going to be a base his /war adds to. Comparing that number w/ 23 is going to give the actual increase, not comparing it to 0%
 Remora.Dodu
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By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 03:04:41  
Titan.Gaiarorshack said:
Remora.Dodu said:
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with >10% DA than with <10% Haste?

So erm 50%DA is not better than 1% haste ?
more than 10% DA CAN be better than less than 10% haste

Because it wasn't incredibly obvious that I made a typing error, or anything.
 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:06:17  
i was unaware of how DA works, and yes 23% is between 20-21% and 5% /SAM would still be ~5%, which is interesting to know.
like i said, "mathematically" the difference is more than i expected. comparing the 507 dly 17% vs 492 dly 27% haste with the different weapons i'd be using makes a huge 17% leap in delay. not to mention i'd be WSing ~17% more often only including 6 vs 5 hit. (17 looks like the magical number). I am quite blown away by these numbers, however from my experience, /WAR still outdamages it. you're all right mathematically. and i have no explanation for it without just showing you a video or something, my /WAR always outdamages my /SAM unbuffed. i was a /SAM fanatic and always thought /WAR was a waste. but i tried it and they didn't compare.
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By seiri 2011-03-23 03:06:27  
Titan.Gaiarorshack said:
seiri said:
DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
seiri said:

DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.
It gives decreasing returns compared to the previous not compared to the base .
and it has decreasing returns from the first percentage.
23% DA is still 23% more swings

You clearly do not understand the reason/math behind this and are just copying what everyone else is saying, without knowing why it is so

Shiva.Cerderic said:
and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
No you have to count in the extra swing does NOT have an increased fTP so it will be less than 25% increase.
and increased dmg from elemental ws gorgets and belt is not added to your extra hit
However extra attack that comes from haste does, since it a real extra ws.


im not debating what setup is best. just clearing out what apears to be some wrong/misunderstood facts to the best of my knowledge.

He has to stack gear to achieve the 23% DA, thus there will be decreasing returns involved, making the incremental increases less and less valuable.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:08:18  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
i was unaware of how DA works, and yes 23% is between 20-21% and 5% /SAM would still be ~5%, which is interesting to know.
like i said, "mathematically" the difference is more than i expected. comparing the 507 dly 17% vs 492 dly 27% haste with the different weapons i'd be using makes a huge 17% leap in delay. not to mention i'd be WSing ~17% more often only including 6 vs 5 hit. (17 looks like the magical number). I am quite blown away by these numbers, however from my experience, /WAR still outdamages it. you're all right mathematically. and i have no explanation for it without just showing you a video or something, my /WAR always outdamages my /SAM unbuffed. i was a /SAM fanatic and always thought /WAR was a waste. but i tried it and they didn't compare.
Eyeballing > Math

This thread is WINNING!
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 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:10:23  
also laugh at me as you will, i don't have any WS gear. i sold it all before the level cap went to 80. and i don't intend to buy anything until we're all 99. call me stupid, but it saved me millions of gil. that and DRG isn't my main focus anymore. the fact that i'm WSing in low STR may have change the impact of DA for my Drakesbane, but i definitely don't get the same average in Drakesbane subbing SAM. /WAR my average drakesbane is about 15% better. of course i am outputting quite a few less.
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 Shiva.Cerderic
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By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:12:21  
another issue is that on my DRG i rarely get to fulltime melee anymore. and when i do, the monster doesn't last long enough for 10% haste to proc. i doubt i swing 10 times in any regular fight.
** i mean proc another WS, i might swing a total of 1 or 2 more times
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:12:41  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
also laugh at me as you will, i don't have any WS gear. i sold it all before the level cap went to 80. and i don't intend to buy anything until we're all 99. call me stupid, but it saved me millions of gil. that and DRG isn't my main focus anymore. the fact that i'm WSing in low STR may have change the impact of DA for my Drakesbane, but i definitely don't get the same average in Drakesbane subbing SAM. /WAR my average drakesbane is about 15% better. of course i am outputting quite a few less.
Do yourself a player and quit playing drg if you don't have *** gear for it.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Garru
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By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 03:13:04  
Berserk/DA. Oh yea, you get that when you /war.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:13:06  
Shiva.Cerderic said:
another issue is that on my DRG i rarely get to fulltime melee anymore. and when i do, the monster doesn't last long enough for 10% haste to proc. i doubt i swing 10 times in any regular fight.
Asura.Arkanethered said:
Wafflechan said:

Takes time to proc
You called it
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