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Gungnir gone wild!
サーバ: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1612
By Titan.Lillica 2011-03-23 02:37:45
Remora.Dodu said: Why the *** did you come here asking for advice when you're not listening to it?
Sixth.Grade.Mathematics.
Woah woah woah. Math?
You need to recognize the miracles of DA brah!
Scientists just be lying with math yo, and gettin me pissed!
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:38:36
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me
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Alexander.Xgalahadx
サーバ: Alexander
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1140
By Alexander.Xgalahadx 2011-03-23 02:40:51
Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 02:42:15
Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me Your experience sucks, lol.
/war isn't better than /sam.
Also, you don't even have haste the spell cast on you? If you don't have that much, why are you even on a DD job?
Remora.Dodu
サーバ: Remora
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Posts: 233
By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:43:00
And when did /WAR start giving you 23% DA?
Also, lol@ 23% DA being a 23% increase in Drakesbane.
Quetzalcoatl.Garru
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 32
By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 02:43:36
Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me
I think you're intentionally not counting haste toward WS frequency, which indirectly increases your total WS damage but meh. It's okay to have your own playstyle etc. but you shouldn't asked to get mathed up and then try to convince everyone that their logic is wrong.
By seiri 2011-03-23 02:43:48
Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? the difference between 17% vs 27% haste = ~13.7% increase
23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
the 5-hit vs 6-hit is "mathematically" a lot more than i thought.
my 507 delay /WAR weapon with 17% haste ~42 seconds to get 100%
my 492 delay /SAM weapon with 27% haste ~30 seconds to get 100%
but from my experience, in MY gear, /SAM hasn't impresses me as much. Like i said, i used to /SAM fulltime, i only recently started subbing WAR when a 6-hit became readily available to me
DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.
Also from eyeballing you wont get an accurate comparison. /WAR will show the biggest WS numbers for certain, due to attack bonus, berserk, DA etc, but /SAM will win due to frequency.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 02:43:57
Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. Also correct, 23% DA is only a 23% increase when comparing it to 0% DA. Compare the DA on /sam to the DA on /war for a more correct comparative value.
Also, it's much less than x% on WS damage because double attacks are worth less damage in a WS than the main attack, where as a DA during a melee attack round is worth the same.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:45:31
h Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.
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By seiri 2011-03-23 02:46:53
Shiva.Cerderic said: h Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.
DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in.
サーバ: Shiva
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Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:47:47
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. Also correct, 23% DA is only a 23% increase when comparing it to 0% DA. Compare the DA on /sam to the DA on /war for a more correct comparative value.
Also, it's much less than x% on WS damage because double attacks are worth less damage in a WS than the main attack, where as a DA during a melee attack round is worth the same. i have 5% DA in my /SAM set, 23-5 = 18 :/
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Remora.Dodu
サーバ: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 233
By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:48:00
Christ. Stop saying that 23% DA is a benefit of being /WAR. You're getting less than 10% by being /WAR.
And in addition to the fact that haste is an exponential increase to your TP damage, its also directly translated as an increase in your WS damage, unlike DA, which is drastically diminished when applied to WS damage.
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サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 02:49:53
seiri said: Shiva.Cerderic said: h Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.
DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in. never heard that before. i'll believe you though. i'm in no way trying to argue that DA is better than haste. i just don't have the option. i'm just saying that building on the DA i have with /WAR increases my damage more than trying to shine the low haste build i'd have /SAM
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By Wafflechan 2011-03-23 02:50:35
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Quetzalcoatl.Garru
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 32
By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 02:51:09
Alexander.Xgalahadx said:
10% double can only beat 10% haste if you're capped completely which is nigh impossible in most situations without /sam.
The Haste vs. DA debate should have ended here.
Alexander.Xgalahadx
サーバ: Alexander
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1140
By Alexander.Xgalahadx 2011-03-23 02:51:16
Shiva.Cerderic said: seiri said: Shiva.Cerderic said: h Alexander.Xgalahadx said: Shiva.Cerderic said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: So you're saying berserk and double attack are better than 27% haste and a 5hit? 23% DA is ROUGHLY 23% increase (including WS DMG)
Don't think so. how not so? i'm swinging ~23% more, ~23% less swings to get 100%, and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage.
if haste didn't increase exponentially, the only reason haste would be better than DA would be because much of the DA can go to waste when you swing an extra time when you would have already had 100%.
DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in. never heard that before. i'll believe you though. i'm in no way trying to argue that DA is better than haste. i just don't have the option. i'm just saying that building on the DA i have with /WAR increases my damage more than trying to shine the low haste build i'd have /SAM Double attack works like this.
Assume a base rate of 100 swings.
Now add 1%
101 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/100) 1%
Now add 1%
102 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/101) 0.99%
Now add 1%
103 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/102) 0.98%
And so on
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Remora.Dodu
サーバ: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 233
By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 02:51:54
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with <10% DA than with >10% Haste?
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-03-23 02:52:48
サーバ: Titan
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Posts: 123
By Titan.Gaiarorshack 2011-03-23 02:59:05
seiri said: DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in. seiri said:
DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.
It gives decreasing returns compared to the previous not compared to the base .
and it has decreasing returns from the first percentage.
23% DA is still 23% more swings
You clearly do not understand the reason/math behind this and are just copying what everyone else is saying, without knowing why it is so
Shiva.Cerderic said: and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage. No you have to count in the extra swing does NOT have an increased fTP so it will be less than 25% increase.
and increased dmg from elemental ws gorgets and belt is not added to your extra hit
However extra attack that comes from haste does, since it a real extra ws.
im not debating what setup is best. just clearing out what apears to be some wrong/misunderstood facts to the best of my knowledge.
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サーバ: Titan
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Posts: 123
By Titan.Gaiarorshack 2011-03-23 03:01:23
Remora.Dodu said: Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with >10% DA than with <10% Haste?
So erm 50%DA is not better than 1% haste ?
more than 10% DA CAN be better than less than 10% haste
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:03:55
Quote: 23% DA is still 23% more swings Only when compared to 0% DA.
Unless he wears no DA gear, this will never be the case.
There is going to be a base his /war adds to. Comparing that number w/ 23 is going to give the actual increase, not comparing it to 0%
Remora.Dodu
サーバ: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 233
By Remora.Dodu 2011-03-23 03:04:41
Titan.Gaiarorshack said: Remora.Dodu said: Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? How can you acknowledge that 1% DA is inferior to 1% haste, while stating that you're going to deal more damage with >10% DA than with <10% Haste?
So erm 50%DA is not better than 1% haste ?
more than 10% DA CAN be better than less than 10% haste
Because it wasn't incredibly obvious that I made a typing error, or anything.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:06:17
i was unaware of how DA works, and yes 23% is between 20-21% and 5% /SAM would still be ~5%, which is interesting to know.
like i said, "mathematically" the difference is more than i expected. comparing the 507 dly 17% vs 492 dly 27% haste with the different weapons i'd be using makes a huge 17% leap in delay. not to mention i'd be WSing ~17% more often only including 6 vs 5 hit. (17 looks like the magical number). I am quite blown away by these numbers, however from my experience, /WAR still outdamages it. you're all right mathematically. and i have no explanation for it without just showing you a video or something, my /WAR always outdamages my /SAM unbuffed. i was a /SAM fanatic and always thought /WAR was a waste. but i tried it and they didn't compare.
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By seiri 2011-03-23 03:06:27
Titan.Gaiarorshack said: seiri said: DA gives decreasing returns also, need to factor that in. seiri said:
DA is decreasing returns after 10%, so 23% is around 20~21% increase.
It gives decreasing returns compared to the previous not compared to the base .
and it has decreasing returns from the first percentage.
23% DA is still 23% more swings
You clearly do not understand the reason/math behind this and are just copying what everyone else is saying, without knowing why it is so
Shiva.Cerderic said: and ~23% of the time my drakesbane does ~25% more damage. No you have to count in the extra swing does NOT have an increased fTP so it will be less than 25% increase.
and increased dmg from elemental ws gorgets and belt is not added to your extra hit
However extra attack that comes from haste does, since it a real extra ws.
im not debating what setup is best. just clearing out what apears to be some wrong/misunderstood facts to the best of my knowledge.
He has to stack gear to achieve the 23% DA, thus there will be decreasing returns involved, making the incremental increases less and less valuable.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:08:18
Shiva.Cerderic said: i was unaware of how DA works, and yes 23% is between 20-21% and 5% /SAM would still be ~5%, which is interesting to know.
like i said, "mathematically" the difference is more than i expected. comparing the 507 dly 17% vs 492 dly 27% haste with the different weapons i'd be using makes a huge 17% leap in delay. not to mention i'd be WSing ~17% more often only including 6 vs 5 hit. (17 looks like the magical number). I am quite blown away by these numbers, however from my experience, /WAR still outdamages it. you're all right mathematically. and i have no explanation for it without just showing you a video or something, my /WAR always outdamages my /SAM unbuffed. i was a /SAM fanatic and always thought /WAR was a waste. but i tried it and they didn't compare. Eyeballing > Math
This thread is WINNING!
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:10:23
also laugh at me as you will, i don't have any WS gear. i sold it all before the level cap went to 80. and i don't intend to buy anything until we're all 99. call me stupid, but it saved me millions of gil. that and DRG isn't my main focus anymore. the fact that i'm WSing in low STR may have change the impact of DA for my Drakesbane, but i definitely don't get the same average in Drakesbane subbing SAM. /WAR my average drakesbane is about 15% better. of course i am outputting quite a few less.
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サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Shiva.Cerderic 2011-03-23 03:12:21
another issue is that on my DRG i rarely get to fulltime melee anymore. and when i do, the monster doesn't last long enough for 10% haste to proc. i doubt i swing 10 times in any regular fight.
** i mean proc another WS, i might swing a total of 1 or 2 more times
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サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:12:41
Shiva.Cerderic said: also laugh at me as you will, i don't have any WS gear. i sold it all before the level cap went to 80. and i don't intend to buy anything until we're all 99. call me stupid, but it saved me millions of gil. that and DRG isn't my main focus anymore. the fact that i'm WSing in low STR may have change the impact of DA for my Drakesbane, but i definitely don't get the same average in Drakesbane subbing SAM. /WAR my average drakesbane is about 15% better. of course i am outputting quite a few less. Do yourself a player and quit playing drg if you don't have *** gear for it.
Quetzalcoatl.Garru
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 32
By Quetzalcoatl.Garru 2011-03-23 03:13:04
Berserk/DA. Oh yea, you get that when you /war.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-03-23 03:13:06
Shiva.Cerderic said: another issue is that on my DRG i rarely get to fulltime melee anymore. and when i do, the monster doesn't last long enough for 10% haste to proc. i doubt i swing 10 times in any regular fight. You called it
I've tried to convince my friend to look into getting a 6-hit for his drg, and he was very strict that he would not give up any haste; which i understand completely. so i've made up this set for him.
i know it's not a true 6-hit. but i can explain how it works.
492 Delay 22 STP = 16.2 TP per hit.
Spirit Jump and Soul Jump return 5 hits worth of TP
Lancer's feet +1 add 2.5 TP to Spirit Jump; Lancer's feet +2 add 5 TP.
*Without Lancer's Schynbalds, you have to swap in 5 more STP in your jump gear, for a total of 27. (Ace's Sabatons or Goading Belt work well)
(27STP Jumps)16.8 x 5 = 84 + (22STP Gear)16.2 = 100.2
*With Lancer's Schynbalds +1 you have to swap in 1 more STP in your jump gear if you wanted, for a total of 23. (Chivalrous chain is an easy fix.)
Jumps: 492 delay & 23 STP = 16.3
(23STP Jumps)16.3 x 5 = 81.5 + (22STP Gear)16.2 = 97.7 + 2.5 = 100.2
*With Lancer's Schynbalds +2 you can actually swap in LESS STP in your jump gear, but you need at least 19.
(19STP Jumps)15.8 x 5 = 79 + (22STP Gear)16.2 = 95.2 + 5 = 100.2
Drakesbane returns 1 hit worth of TP + 3 (If all hits land).
For this setup to work, you would need to WS in at least 21 STP in gear. (Which the only issue I'd see with that is full-timing the body > Twilight mail, & imo that's not too much to ask, it's still a great piece for WSing.)
(21STP WS)16 + 3 = 19
(22STP Gear)16.2 x 5 = 81 + 19 = 100
(Note: This would require all hits from drakesbane to land. But with the Acc from Gugnir and everything else, i find it a non-issue. The OPTIONAL Moonshade Earring I believe would be a good fix to any misses, if augmented with Regain. Between a few TP from Regain, and the occasional extra you'd get from Jump gear, you'd indefinitely have no problem getting 100%.)
Anything that doesn't have STP on it is interchangeable (especially Neck & Legs). This set is based on the gear my friend has, but mostly i'd like to think it's perfect, or damn near it.
Comments please :D
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