Empyrean Crossroads

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dark Knight » Empyrean Crossroads
Empyrean Crossroads
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-04-26 01:14:52  
Caladbolgs 7-hit builds TP at the same speed as a 501 Delay 6-hit scythe making it actually better in terms of TP build comparing it to a 513 delay 6-hit Apoc, alot of people don't realize this.

I have apoc and its just horrid to me, don't even care for it anymore.
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 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 08:39:36  
Yea, 7 hit build on caladbolg gets you to 100% after WS with 2580 delay, Apoc 6 hit build after WS is 2565 delay. .5% faster for Apoc to WS but Caladbolg do get an extra hit at the same time frame and the WS is much stronger and the aftermath is way superior. There is honestly no comparison anymore. I feel bad for those Apoc owners, but anyhow it is still a very good utility scythe and it looks badass.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-04-26 08:57:56  
The thing that irritated me most about criticizing my OP was that at the very end i said:

Ragnarok.Ashman said:
tl;dr: sell me on the pro's of making a redemption for someone who already owns a caladbolg. *edit* Post 666 :O

The rest of the OP was pretty much JUST to say: "please do not tell me what you think I should make instead by checking my character".

I still have not decided. To be honest, I will most likely not finish my scythe trials before I reach my turn anyhow. If it were solely based on personal wants and preferences I would make scythe hands down and retire warrior. The largest things that bother me now are that 1) The guy who is next in line is already making a scythe (in b4 shitstorm). If I make Great Axe, it will be easier to farm glavoid and chloris pops at the same time with amber light farming. 2) It will also give us the ability to farm tunga when amun is claimed and vice versa. I just would feel like an idiot making an empyrean for a job I do not enjoy. By the end of this week I will have finished my +2's for warrior (and hopefully zelus tiara). Maybe warrior will appeal to me more then.

Still, I appreciate all the feedback, both positive and negative. I had a good chuckle at the "stop being a *** and prove scythe is good" etc. I had a good talk with Returner during Amun yesterday and his comments helped me sort out a large portion of the "white noise" I had clouding my decision. I also want to thank the massive amount of PM's i received from people who wanted to offer their opinion.
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 Ifrit.Hitoseijuro
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By Ifrit.Hitoseijuro 2011-04-26 10:35:21  
Ragnarok.Returner said:
Yea, 7 hit build on caladbolg gets you to 100% after WS with 2580 delay, Apoc 6 hit build after WS is 2565 delay. .5% faster for Apoc to WS but Caladbolg do get an extra hit at the same time frame and the WS is much stronger and the aftermath is way superior. There is honestly no comparison anymore. I feel bad for those Apoc owners, but anyhow it is still a very good utility scythe and it looks badass.
I think youre over estimating caladborg outside of abyssea on anything defensive/evasive that *might* come out this May. Maybe Im being too optimistic, Ill admit to that. However like I mentioned before, if you're getting the full accuracy on apoc over caladborg its going to pull ahead.

I dont think its too far fetched to think that either, look at mobs like khim/cerb that required 440-450 accuracy just to cap out accuracy on them. How many ppl were getting 450 accuracy w/o pizza? 430 with merits/hasso/DE average(12acc). The difference in acc there would be enough to put apoc/calad just about even(10% hit rate, ie 85%vs 95%). Theres NMs that you dont auto cap inside abyssea just with cruor buffs/RR(thats around an extra 82 acc) so its not surprising if SE brings out some evasive mobs.

A lot of spreadsheets are putting putting both weapon skills within reason(talking about 100-200 damage difference in average), outside of abyssea on a decently defensive mob.

You can easily see how both weapons perform on something decently challenging, go to abyssea, dont use cruor buffs/atmas, and fight some decently defensive NMs. Youll see the ws are not as clear as night and day. This would give you an idea of whats to come in the update.

Im not saying this is going to happen, but just a possible scenerio that just shows that calad isnt as superior as its held to be, its within atleast 7% better than apoc outside of abyssea on something defensive and accuracy problems which *may* arise can drop that.


Btw calad weilders, with the new LR update coming up, this means with haste/marchesx2 you can actually drop your waist/leg slot and use something like anguinus belt/ares legs for more att/acc/DA which would be a decent boost. Reason being is b/c with haste/marches and LR being up, youd be at around 65% haste, meaning youd only need 15-17 haste in gear to make up the rest.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-04-26 10:39:28  
I hadn't actually thought of the prospects of overcapping haste yet, since I don't usually have a bard, but now I'm glad I got at least Ares legs before my group imploded.

Also, good defense on Apoc, I've gone toe-to-toe with a 90 Apoc, and while definitely, the work:reward isn't there with Caladbolg being so easy, if you already have an Apoc, it's not weak in comparison, and the aftermath opens up some very distinct builds that don't work with Calad or redemption. (Namely Full EAF+2)
 Ifrit.Zerovirus
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By Ifrit.Zerovirus 2011-04-26 10:40:58  
never heard it refered to as EAF.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-04-26 10:44:27  
Ifrit.Zerovirus said:
never heard it refered to as EAF.


I've always called it EAF, since AF3 has already been used to refer to the "Head" slot in the original sets. That was oldschool lingo though, even before Relic gear.

AF1(Weapon)
AF2(Lv.52Armor)
AF3(lvl.60Armor)
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-04-26 10:55:22  
Odin.Zicdeh said:
if you already have an Apoc, it's not weak in comparison, and the aftermath opens up some very distinct builds that don't work with Calad or redemption. (Namely Full EAF+2)

There's a apocadrk on our server who full times full EAF and it drives me batshit crazy. I don't mean he swaps for aftermath. He ONLY takes it off for ws then swaps back. Mob paralyzes you and aftermath wears??? FULL EMP. O well
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-04-26 10:56:44  
Yeah, that's stupid. For the most part, any Relic owner, not just Apoc, but it's more ubiquitous with Apoc, should have dedicated AFtermath and Nonaftermath sets...

It's just a typical example of a super gimp player thinking his relic makes a winnar is him.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-04-26 11:08:26  
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Yeah, that's stupid. For the most part, any Relic owner, not just Apoc, but it's more ubiquitous with Apoc, should have dedicated AFtermath and Nonaftermath sets... It's just a typical example of a super gimp player thinking his relic makes a winnar is him.

It seems there has been a massive influx of bought relic's lately. Either that or these players have all decided to troll by impersonating people who buy accounts. Either way nowadays when i see relics i immediately turn away from the player before i start seeing the gear. The only reason i know about this guy is because i know him and bust his balls :x
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-04-26 11:14:07  
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Yeah, that's stupid. For the most part, any Relic owner, not just Apoc, but it's more ubiquitous with Apoc, should have dedicated AFtermath and Nonaftermath sets... It's just a typical example of a super gimp player thinking his relic makes a winnar is him.

It seems there has been a massive influx of bought relic's lately. Either that or these players have all decided to troll by impersonating people who buy accounts. Either way nowadays when i see relics i immediately turn away from the player before i start seeing the gear. The only reason i know about this guy is because i know him and bust his balls :x


Obviously aren't squeezing hard enough. He probably comes in under a 26% Haste Guillotine build because of that.
 Fenrir.Viperouskaos
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By Fenrir.Viperouskaos 2011-04-26 11:45:00  
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Yeah, that's stupid. For the most part, any Relic owner, not just Apoc, but it's more ubiquitous with Apoc, should have dedicated AFtermath and Nonaftermath sets... It's just a typical example of a super gimp player thinking his relic makes a winnar is him.

It seems there has been a massive influx of bought relic's lately. Either that or these players have all decided to troll by impersonating people who buy accounts. Either way nowadays when i see relics i immediately turn away from the player before i start seeing the gear. The only reason i know about this guy is because i know him and bust his balls :x
How can you buy a relic lol and why don't you like WAR Ashman ? I think war is an awsome Job. SE really ***on DRK in Abyssea maybe they got tired of thier NMs being ZERGED lol none the less I think DRK will be pimp again next 90-99 Update
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-04-26 11:58:42  
Well, people with relics sell accounts, and the person who bought it, bought a relic...
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-04-26 12:05:21  
Fenrir.Viperouskaos said:
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Yeah, that's stupid. For the most part, any Relic owner, not just Apoc, but it's more ubiquitous with Apoc, should have dedicated AFtermath and Nonaftermath sets... It's just a typical example of a super gimp player thinking his relic makes a winnar is him.
It seems there has been a massive influx of bought relic's lately. Either that or these players have all decided to troll by impersonating people who buy accounts. Either way nowadays when i see relics i immediately turn away from the player before i start seeing the gear. The only reason i know about this guy is because i know him and bust his balls :x
How can you buy a relic lol and why don't you like WAR Ashman ? I think war is an awsome Job. SE really ***on DRK in Abyssea maybe they got tired of thier NMs being ZERGED lol none the less I think DRK will be pimp again next 90-99 Update


You google "buy account for XXX game" and then decide what you're willing to pay for it. We had a long-time LS member "come back from a long time retirement" and start playing again. Sadly, they weren't aware that we have a tight-knit RL communications (IM, Facebook, email etc) with ls members. Turns out the member who quit had sold their account and the service they sold it to didn't bother to server transfer them and change the name. When we called them out on it they left and joined a merc ls run by a "server transfer relic owner" that clearly doesnt frown upon this type of behavior.

It's more common than you think. I don't have a problem with it so much as I frown upon people lying about it. If the guy would have came to us and said "I'm new and wanted to get a headstart" I personally would have let it slide due to their honesty.

As far as not liking warrior: I feel unchallenged by being on warrior. I don't feel that I have to adapt to the situation like I can with some other jobs. When I'm on warrior I feel like i just turn on berserk, retaliation, restraint etc and hammer away on WS macro until whatever I'm attacking stops twitching. I leveled warrior literally in the past 2 months or so and I can already do more WS damage (in abyssea) than jobs I've had for years (main DRG who started at NA release) with mediocre gear. I used to strive to get my parses up on non-conventional jobs and out-dd well geared wars, sams, rng etc over the years on DRG (before buffing) etc. I feel like my war is a cop-out. I did NOT level it as a bandwagon or to compensate for something other jobs lacked, I leveled it for "!!" in abyssea. I just feel dirty when I'm on it.

It all comes back to the "I get bored auto-attack and ws spamming on war" though. After playing for 7+ years I've logged WAY too many hours in front of FFXI. I do still enjoy the game but I will literally fall asleep after a long day of work when im doing nothing but keeping JA up and alternating between WS and seigan/TE and hasso. I figure why still play if I'm not having fun? Unless my war becomes light years more fun with the 4/5 EAF& zelus tiara build, or they announce some gamechanger information about new JA/JT for war before next update, making a Ukko would just be something to make me enjoy a job i (CURRENTLY) dislike. After this weeks +2 item farming and tiara farming Ill update you on if i still hate it as much or not :x
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 13:12:56  
I fail to see how inside/outside abyssea will have anything to do with Cata being closer to Torcleaver. Yes, Torcleaver has no ratio bonus, but neither does Cata. The ftp difference is 38%, yes, you make up some of that by having a higher fstr and higher base damage, but nowhere close to the picture you are painting. While Apoc has accuracy, Calad has ODD, which is absolutely the biggest difference between the two weapons if you want to say their WS being about the same damage. Apoc natively has about 7% 2.50x damage rate, and ok I will give you the 5% set bonus ODD from using full EAF since they can just cap gear haste with aftermath. You are still 15% behind in that regard, which is a huge deal.

You also make a deal about LR adjustment, you realize while apoc owners can swap out more thanks to excess haste if under march march, calad owners can do the same as well, just not as much. And there is really only so many haste gears you can swap out assuming you are trying to get the set bonus of EAF going. You can swap out belt and a ring, but that's really the only two slots you can make change of. Ppl keep saying with aftermath you can swap out haste, but now a day haste gears usually have other stats to it like our EAF head body hand, and ace's feet and goading belt are essential to store tp build, leaving you with almost nothing better to swap in for tp anyway.

You brought out accuracy issue, yes, it is important, but nowhere as hard to get as you are making it to be. Even back in the lvl 75 days, where lvl difference is greater and accuracy penalty was larger, most 2hand melees were able to cap accuracy with pizza. And DRK was one of the most accurate 2 hand jobs thanks to gear selections (Adaberk)(don't say drg, drg didn't have a decent body with accuracy back then, no DM earring, no bomblet etc etc which pretty much offset the 22 accuracy JT, not to mention they have no JA to boost it when needed), JA (Diabolic Eye, Souleater), and spell (absorb acc). Most Apoc Drks back then don't even merit Diabolic eye (the rest of us capped it so we have the option of having 20 accuracy for 3 mins every 5 mins), so if that's the difference you are talking about, it is basically nothing with all those options.

At this stage of the game, there is really no reason to talk about accuracy issue. The majority of the accuarcy issue came from lvl correction, which was 4 accuracy per lvl. So at lvl 75, when facing a lvl 95 mob, you are automatically down 80 accuracy (40% hit rate). With lvl cap increasing to 99 eventually there will no longer be such penalty and unless the mob lvl breaks 99, which I doubt it will, or they set the evasion of the mob to unbelievable high, there is really no reason to make a big deal out of accuracy.

I respect apoc owners and how hard they tried to get the weapon. But harder to get doesn't mean it is better. It is honestly no comparison. By no comparison I don't mean Calad is like 50% better, no, by no comparison I mean perhaps 10-15% better, and that's 10-15% difference that will never be made up, which is large enough for me.
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 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-04-26 13:30:35  
Ragnarok.Returner said:
I respect apoc owners and how hard they tried to get the weapon. But harder to get doesn't mean it is better. It is honestly no comparison. By no comparison I don't mean Calad is like 50% better, no, by no comparison I mean perhaps 10-15% better, and that's 10-15% difference that will never be made up, which is large enough for me.

Returner, with all due respect, by your standards it is obvious that comparing Apoc VS Calad results in a question mark over Why any DRK would ever want to make an Apoc these days. But the issue between those 2 weapons is that, in fact, they refer to 2 completely different Era of FFXI.

DRKs wanted Apoc because at 75 it was the best weapon they could have, with a rather unique AM and the much appreciated Accuracy which was always welcome for a job lacking native Acc JAs except for the one you'd get via merits, not to mention the additional drain which helped DRKs tank decently.

SE is realizing the flaws in the Pre-Abyssean "Top Gear" (Oh, snap, Jeremy Clarckson) and is adjusting them according to the newest gear so they will still keep up as they should, especially considering how much harder they were to obtain.

Relics/Mythics already got an upgrade in their WS damage and I'm sure it'll go further up. You claim there is no way for them to make up for the easy gap currently set by Empyreans, but just think at how easily an increase in WS output will fix that upon the future level increases.

Also, if I were to choose between 15 VIT and 35 Acc as topping over a weapon, I'd pretty much go for the +Acc any day so I can eat meat while the ODD may whiff without pizza.

Hell, did I say SE is realizing flaws over gear? I should've said it's realizing the flaws on DRK pre and post-Abyssea :D

tldr Don't all go bandwagoning Caladbolgs just yet imo
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 13:46:51  
Oh yea, definitely no argument about that. I am not here to say don't upgrade Apoc, if I have the gil I would, I have the paper too. But to not realizing there is a gap and think it will get better just because harder stuff are coming is unrealistic.

It has its utility and there is not doubt about that. There is also a good chance its WS will get boosted further. However, there is also a chance that the last stage of the empy weapons are going to get some unique stats on it either. The thing is we won't know until it is here, but to just speculate and say that it will get better just wait is not the way to go about advising ppl.

SE has promised a bunch of things that they never fulfill such as scythe boost, there is a chance that SE think they have already brought relic to par with empy. The WS defines the weapon, such is why drg empy or relic are so bad compare to mythic, there is always going to be a better weapon out of relic/mythic/empy even though SE tried their best at balancing the 3. To think SE will notice that Apoc isn't as good as Calad and therefore boost Apoc is really just wishful thinking. First of all, they are two entirely different weapon type, so if you are comparing, Apoc is already at the top of the foodchain as far as scythe go, so what makes you think they will boost it further just because Calad at this point is better?

I would pick 35 accuracy over 15 VIT as well, but would you pick 30% ODD over 10% gear haste aftermath? There will always be pro and cons, to think that accuracy is going to make a come back in the future really isn't reasonable even when out of abyssea.
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 14:08:08  
Also, bandwagoning is what ppl do, you have to adjust to the current situation always (ppl want to be at the top right now, not at the top in the future). They used to bandwagon APOC over Ragnarok, Aegis over Excalibur, and who would know that Ragnarok would make a come back now as being one of the better relic, and who would know that Excalibur was one of the best relics over Aegis right before the introduction of abyssea. I never jumped on caladbolg's bandwagon, I was one of the first few to decide to give it a try, and because I have always loved GS (if you gave me the choice between upgrading Ragnarok or Apoc at lvl 75 back then, I would have upgraded Ragnarok, I am a fan of GS, and I honestly don't care how they perform).

I just think alot of relic owners are waiting and waiting for another boost and they might as well use that time and get an empy to continue to be at the top. After all, it isn't all that hard to get one, which is obviously why ppl are so against empy being the best out of the bunch. I mean, I could wait for my hard earned Adaberk to make it back to the top instead of getting EAF body +2, but why not just get the EAF body +2 now and wait for Adaberk to come back?
 Asura.Arkanethered
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-04-26 14:14:05  
Ragnarok.Returner said:
To think SE will notice that Apoc isn't as good as Calad and therefore boost Apoc is really just wishful thinking.

Quote:


-Gildrein

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.


They said they would, that's why we hope.
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 14:33:53  
They already did give relic the 25% boost in WS, which is why I said they could think that they did make that adjustment already.

Also, after the boost, Apoc is already better than Redemption, or in par at least, so I am not really sure what is the problem. At least for scythe there is no empy > relic issue. Ragnarok is pretty close to Caladbolg as of now, so they might make an adjustment for that (they really don't need to do anything as Ragnarok's critical hit rate has been increasing each upgrade, and eventually it will be right up there with empy's ODD), but why would they make adjustment to apoc just cuz GS options are better now? It has nothing to do with empy and relic but everything to do with weapon class.

IMO they have already done what they promised with relic, but who knows, which is why I am not buying the wait and see approach.
 Asura.Arkanethered
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-04-26 14:41:29  
That was posted after the last upgrade.

Honestly I don't care either way... But you seem desperately determined that Apoc will be eclipsed in either case.
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-26 14:47:28  
Not at all, I am determined to get whatever is best for now instead of speculating for the future. If apoc is better in the future I will get apoc, simple as that, but to give advice saying apoc "will" be better is not reasonable, especially based on the +35 accuracy.

And content of that post by SE is the same exact writing as the one before they give the WS boost. I am not sure if it is just a copy and past job designed to calm the players down or a legit plan. To me, they will almost have to make the WS boost 40% to equal empy, and 50% to better it. Let's wait and see.
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-04-26 18:39:27  
Nameless was my DRK inspiration on forums when I was a noob! Returner is the ***!
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-04-26 18:42:16  
Fenrir.Gradd said:
Nameless was my DRK inspiration on forums when I was a noob! Returner is the ***!

I see what you did there (O.-)
 Ifrit.Hitoseijuro
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By Ifrit.Hitoseijuro 2011-04-26 23:24:20  
Ragnarok.Returner said:
I fail to see how inside/outside abyssea will have anything to do with Cata being closer to Torcleaver. Yes, Torcleaver has no ratio bonus, but neither does Cata. The ftp difference is 38%, yes, you make up some of that by having a higher fstr and higher base damage, but nowhere close to the picture you are painting. While Apoc has accuracy, Calad has ODD, which is absolutely the biggest difference between the two weapons if you want to say their WS being about the same damage. Apoc natively has about 7% 2.50x damage rate, and ok I will give you the 5% set bonus ODD from using full EAF since they can just cap gear haste with aftermath. You are still 15% behind in that regard, which is a huge deal. You also make a deal about LR adjustment, you realize while apoc owners can swap out more thanks to excess haste if under march march, calad owners can do the same as well, just not as much. And there is really only so many haste gears you can swap out assuming you are trying to get the set bonus of EAF going. You can swap out belt and a ring, but that's really the only two slots you can make change of. Ppl keep saying with aftermath you can swap out haste, but now a day haste gears usually have other stats to it like our EAF head body hand, and ace's feet and goading belt are essential to store tp build, leaving you with almost nothing better to swap in for tp anyway. You brought out accuracy issue, yes, it is important, but nowhere as hard to get as you are making it to be. Even back in the lvl 75 days, where lvl difference is greater and accuracy penalty was larger, most 2hand melees were able to cap accuracy with pizza. And DRK was one of the most accurate 2 hand jobs thanks to gear selections (Adaberk)(don't say drg, drg didn't have a decent body with accuracy back then, no DM earring, no bomblet etc etc which pretty much offset the 22 accuracy JT, not to mention they have no JA to boost it when needed), JA (Diabolic Eye, Souleater), and spell (absorb acc). Most Apoc Drks back then don't even merit Diabolic eye (the rest of us capped it so we have the option of having 20 accuracy for 3 mins every 5 mins), so if that's the difference you are talking about, it is basically nothing with all those options. At this stage of the game, there is really no reason to talk about accuracy issue. The majority of the accuarcy issue came from lvl correction, which was 4 accuracy per lvl. So at lvl 75, when facing a lvl 95 mob, you are automatically down 80 accuracy (40% hit rate). With lvl cap increasing to 99 eventually there will no longer be such penalty and unless the mob lvl breaks 99, which I doubt it will, or they set the evasion of the mob to unbelievable high, there is really no reason to make a big deal out of accuracy. I respect apoc owners and how hard they tried to get the weapon. But harder to get doesn't mean it is better. It is honestly no comparison. By no comparison I don't mean Calad is like 50% better, no, by no comparison I mean perhaps 10-15% better, and that's 10-15% difference that will never be made up, which is large enough for me.
Ok, like I mentioned you're over estimating caladborgs goodness. So well address each issue you bring up. Like I said nothing is set in stone on what awaits us and the difficulty of the mobs, but if abyssean mobs can give us a rough idea of whats to come with mobs of that level, then its something to work on.

First up, the mobs in abyssea(exp types) are around 400-410 in evasion, and the defense around 420-450, with 90 in vit/agi, it ranges though as it can be a bit higher. Now on an HNM/NM id expect that 500 def isnt too unreasonable and its usually what I use to gauge(pretty sure others have said it goes higher) well keep it at lv 97 and wont play too much with the evasion just to cater to calad and keep accuracy equal to booth.

Torcleaver vs Cata. The mods on both are terrible, but cata still pulls away with better mods as 40% of int/agi is better than 60% vit. Inside abyssea you're getting a 12% increase on ws base damage for cata over Torcleaver. While the ftp is a 38% increase when all things are equal, they are not equal, Apoc gets a 25% increase from its ws. So while not even, its not exactly the huge 38% that you make it to be.

Melee wise, thats where the kicker is, yes you're comparing 30% ODD to almost a 10% ODD. Thats huge, its like an 18% increase. However the weapons are not equal, Apoc naturally hits harder. Inside abyssea is where that nature of hitting harder diminishes for apoc. Thanks to being able to achieve 70+str in heroes zones calad borg can cap out its fstr, and 52-53 attack ontop of another 50attack if you use A&O. This therefore insures that caladborgs melee swings stay strong inside abyssea. If you take them both out and fight the same mob, Apoc starts to gain back its advantage(look at 20str, 60-ish attack, 3DA% in some cases) of hitting harder, to the point where even with ODD on calad it should be roughly hitting on an *average* better than caladborg. Hence why inside Abyssea, its going to be 13% better, but outside its going to be within 2-3% of a difference, hence *if* accuracy becomes a problem, Apoc *can* pull ahead.

You dont have to take my word for anything, you can easily double check this with math or spreadsheets, plug in your calad drk and plug in a apoc gear options and youll see that Apoc will have a better cratio, fstr than calad, and on mobs that count, stats like those count.

As far as the difference in accuracy, if you check all those buffs were already added to that total sum. Only thing I didnt add was SE since ppl didnt prefer to merit it so it would vary on the acc average, but if merited, it should only raise what I listed by 6 accuracy more.

I agree with you on the accuracy issues, but considering that even though its only 9 or so levels of level correction, even in abyssea, issues on accuracy are still present, flameskimmer anyone? Im pretty sure there are mobs still that accuracy isnt auto capped. While if mobs wont exceed lv 99 I pray that their stats get higher, and also that SE stays true to their word on relic buffs. Its not the same team working on this game, so I have a bit more confidence now. And if the lv 90 stage is a small sample of whats to come for relics, its a start imo. Personally if they dont buff up relics as the level increases its really a slap to the face for relic owners.

Anyhow Im still working out better sets with the new coming duration of LR for calad. If you feel I might of missed a detail, please let me know as Im always working on different combo sets for most DD jobs. As Katsumoto said, "I rather enjoy our conversations". Its nice to be part of a civil conversation and not a flamefeast.
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-04-27 00:10:18  
Just going to point out three things on your arguments that are wrong.

1) 38% advantage in ftp is 38% advantage in ftp, I already accounted for the 25% increase. Yes, the base damage made up for about 10-15%, and you can count the mod too, but it is still no where near (not to mention the damage increase from having extra TP due to human error).

2) You talk about fstr inside abyssea, you are actually mistaken. Inside abyssea is where apoc takes advantage of its fstr thanks to the STR bonus from cruor and atma, you are able to fulfill your fstr cap when you wouldn't be able to otherwise outside abyssea during tp phase. In addition to that, you also get a greater deal of boost from cruor boost cuz your total modifer is 80% (agi + int) while torcleaver is 60%, so naturally you gain more from the cruor buff.

3) You keep forgeting this. While apoc hits harder per hit, Caladbolg hits faster without sacrificing WS frequency. So the time where Apoc gets 5 hits in, Calad gets 6 hits in and both are able to WS at practically the same time. That 1 extra hit, with the advantage in ODD, is more than make up for the per hit difference in a single WS cycle outside abyssea. Adding that with the shortage in WS damage and ODD there isn't a comparison in overall damage. And because a 7 hit calad is practically the same gear setup as a 6 hit apoc take away leg, feet, belt, there wouldn't be that much attack, str, and DA difference as you think outside abyssea (remember, if you are going to keep the EAF set bonus you can't use the like of ares leg for tp, while calad can use the augment ASA pants with 3% haste and 2% DA), there would be some attack, and some str difference, but nothing that can't be made up by the extra hit during the ws cycle.

Your only argument that holds true is that there is a real chance that apoc will be boosted further in the future, but I don't deny that.

I know full well of how this game works, the mechanic etc etc that's why I am well respected around the forum and even one of the few modifiers in the math section in BG. None of my claims are from eyeball, all of it has math behind it. I don't really use the FFXI calculator cuz I have one that I made on my own that I trust the math behind. I don't mind discussions like this cuz it is actually fun to talk about the game this way so don't take anything I said the wrong way.