Ukon Vs Maschu +2

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Warrior » Ukon vs Maschu +2
Ukon vs Maschu +2
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By Haist 2011-08-09 00:11:53  
I know the outcome, I just want to know how far off the maschu is to the real deal.
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-08-09 00:14:24  
far
[+]
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-08-09 00:15:23  
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-09 00:15:53  
let's see

ukko's fury with no occasionally deals double damage

vs

ukko's fury with occasionally deals double damage

my wager is far off by a lot as far as comparing it to ukonvasara, but maschu +2 is still miles ahead of everything else
[+]
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-08-09 00:18:23  
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(

I don't have it yet either so let's get to work, /cheer =D
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-08-09 00:20:15  
Odin.Sheelay said:
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(

I don't have it yet either so let's get to work, /cheer =D

Where's your Bravaura? =(
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-08-09 00:21:09  
Sheelay playing again or still on break? D:?
 Lakshmi.Hiku
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By Lakshmi.Hiku 2011-08-09 00:21:24  
While the hard WS numbers probably wont be off by a -huge- difference, the Ukon will do higher numbers. The real benefit to having the fully upgraded Ukon as opposed to the Maschu is the aftermath of double damage, which alot of people have been ignoring for some reason on these Empy vs. WoE weapons. Your total damage is more than just your WS damage, it's also your standard attacks in between WS's; and with any decent WAR, those few hits between the WSs themselves can be equal to or greater than the WS damage during an aftermath effect.

tldr: would you rather do a 4k WS and regular melee/crit for 800-1000dmg, or would you settle for a 4k WS and melee for 200-400?
[+]
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-08-09 00:21:44  
Bahamut.Serj said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(

I don't have it yet either so let's get to work, /cheer =D

Where's your Bravaura? =(

go away empface
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-08-09 00:22:14  
Fenrir.Gradd said:
Sheelay playing again or still on break? D:?

Judging by the AH history, I'd say back.
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-08-09 00:22:44  
Bahamut.Serj said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(

I don't have it yet either so let's get to work, /cheer =D

Where's your Bravaura? =(

Retired the project for an undefined period of time... :(
I'm not gonna solo Dynamis for it when the game is meant to be played with other people.

I'd be a BST otherwise

Bahamut.Serj said:
Fenrir.Gradd said:
Sheelay playing again or still on break? D:?

Judging by the AH history, I'd say back.

Yup :D
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-08-09 00:22:49  
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Bahamut.Serj said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
far

:(

I don't have it yet either so let's get to work, /cheer =D

Where's your Bravaura? =(

go away empface

=(
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-08-09 00:24:14  
Yay! HI SHEELAY!
[+]
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-08-09 00:24:38  
Fenrir.Gradd said:
Yay! HI SHEELAY!

Heya ^^
 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2011-08-09 00:30:55  
Lakshmi.Hiku said:
tldr: would you rather do a 4k WS and regular melee/crit for 800-1000dmg, or would you settle for a 4k WS and melee for 200-400?


these numbers are actually not far off furry's dbl dmg effect
i saw 1150 and then 1170 dmg on tp swing


BUT when did dbl damage of 200-400 become 800-1000 ?
[+]
 Bismarck.Faelar
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By Bismarck.Faelar 2011-08-09 01:04:38  
Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said:
Lakshmi.Hiku said:
tldr: would you rather do a 4k WS and regular melee/crit for 800-1000dmg, or would you settle for a 4k WS and melee for 200-400?
these numbers are actually not far off furry's dbl dmg effect i saw 1150 and then 1170 dmg on tp swing BUT when did dbl damage of 200-400 become 800-1000 ?


Crits?
 Cerberus.Kelhor
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2011-08-09 01:05:50  
Empyrean +2 set procs? They stack with the aftermath, for quad damage excitement
 Ragnarok.Judaine
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By Ragnarok.Judaine 2011-08-09 01:15:57  
Cerberus.Kelhor said:
Empyrean +2 set procs? They stack with the aftermath, for quad damage excitement

[+]
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By Entourage 2011-08-09 01:16:26  
3400 dmg critical hits are fun.
[+]
 Fairy.Ghaleon
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By Fairy.Ghaleon 2011-08-09 01:26:54  
don't forget that maschu+2 has 504 delay making it a bit easier to 5hit with capped haste etc. this is the only thing that could give maschu some increase in comparison, but ukon will still win no doubt.

edit- shouldn't you be doing more than 4k with Ukko's? >.> unless it's on NMs i guess D:
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By Entourage 2011-08-09 01:35:56  
critical hits... not weapon skills
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 Shiva.Msthief
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By Shiva.Msthief 2011-08-09 02:41:45  
If you assume:

1. 50:50 damage ratio of WS's and DOT.
2. The delay difference cancels out. In other words, the higher delay of the Maschu allows you to WS more often and the lower delay of the Ukon increases your DOT - these two are equal.

Although both of these are kind of radical assumptions, they're necessary without doing a crapload of math - I've heard ninjas are 30:70 ws:dot after Kannagi/Hi so 50:50 for war before Ukko's might be fair. As for assumption #2, whatever.

In this case, ODD alone increases your overall damage by 15%.

*I think the biggest difference you could have is 75:25 ws:dot. In this case, a 7.5% increase. 7.5%-15% is a huge difference, bigger than any non-weapon upgrade you could make.
 Asura.Izilder
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By Asura.Izilder 2011-08-09 06:12:25  
Ukons is a BEAST - the end, but it shouldn't detract from the Maschu +2 being a nice 2nd choice as a weapon.

However here are two parses @ 5 man Dynamis Lords for you to look over
Under 2 hours with march x2 and War and Drk Rolls (both lucky) Ukon (85) always finishing top of the parse's

i tried to pick two from about ten parses i had both with the same Wars - to try and demonstrate when they are closest and not - make of it what you will Haist :)

TP phase under AM is just crazy


> > Parse 1 > >

Ukon War Total = 25326 / 33.46 % TP = 15474 WS x4 = 9262

WS Low / High = 765 / 3254 AVERAGE = 2315.50



Maschu +2 Total = 15867 / 20.96 % TP = 8444 WS x3 = 7423

WS Low / High = 2032 / 2795 AVERAGE = 2474.33


(( Other DDs = Masamune Sam (85) , Rev Fists+2 Mnk, TH mule ))


> > Parse 2 > >


Ukon War Total = 29540 / 36.81 % TP = 10769 WS x6 = 17859

WS Low / High = 2006 / 3679 AVERAGE = 2976.50



Maschu +2 Total = 10073 / 12.55 % TP = 5806 WS x2 = 4267

WS Low / High = 1641 / 2626 AVERAGE = 2133.50


(( Other DDs = Masamune Sam (85) , Vere Mnk (85) , TH mule ))
 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2011-08-09 06:14:47  
Bismarck.Faelar said:
Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said:
Lakshmi.Hiku said:
tldr: would you rather do a 4k WS and regular melee/crit for 800-1000dmg, or would you settle for a 4k WS and melee for 200-400?
these numbers are actually not far off furry's dbl dmg effect i saw 1150 and then 1170 dmg on tp swing BUT when did dbl damage of 200-400 become 800-1000 ?


Crits?

you missed my point.
Look as what he is saying

He is saying that if you do melee/crits with 200-400, the dbl effect from aftermath takes it to 800-1000

if you do numbers.. you can't over-exaggerate what doubling is, its is only doubling not, quadrupling (low hit 200 to low hit 800 in his given example).

or he is saying that you can no longer crits if you dont have ukon aftermath on tp moves ?

otherwise his example is pointless if he is comparing with and without crit effect, in his comparison which is just a invalid comparison of the aftermath effect.
 Cerberus.Fiasko
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2011-08-09 06:21:29  
What is the proc rate of the ODD? Unless it is 15-20% I don't understand how it would be an increase of 15% to overall dmg. Also I assume the ODD cannot proc on WS which would further the argument that just the ODD wouldn't put it so far ahead.

Also, the parse above isn't much to go by. There is no way the warriors were playing the same style when the Ukon did 6 WS compared to 2. The sample size is incredibly small also. Of course Ukon will come out on top, but the principle difference is the ODD and the delay. (which depending on the build would be the 4% (482/504= .956 or 4.4%) lower delay compared to the 2%DA or 3% crit rate)

One would also have to see if you can maintain the 5 hit build with sword strap (with mashcu +2). I don't know if the 1.4% extra delay would allow you to keep the build without rose strap (4.4% - 3%).
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2011-08-09 06:25:12  
You'll still have fun with a Maschu +2. WoE weapons are cake, I finished 3 before I quit in a matter of a short time (gaxe, gsword, and sword) with 30 birth coins collecting dust for an undecided 4th WoE weapon. (Yes you can get 1st place as a sack puller or at least at some point were able to.) You'll still shave off massive hunks of NM hp when you ws, you just will miss out on some smaller hunks on your normal swings afterwards.

Personally I don't see why you and your buddies wouldn't want to take a break from abyssea and do something different like WoE in between working on af3 and empy's even if you have to deal with drop rates and leeches. Even having the weaker ukko's weapon can make farming empy weapons a little quicker too.
 Alexander.Vivicide
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By Alexander.Vivicide 2011-08-09 06:28:38  
You guys are also forgetting the +15STR and little bit higher base damage on the weapon. Granted the ODD is the biggest upgrade from Maschu > Ukon but those do play a factor. Outside abyssea it isn' easy to get that much of a boost to STR. Let alone on the weapon slot. That's pretty huge.
 Shiva.Msthief
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By Shiva.Msthief 2011-08-09 06:46:37  
Proc rate of ODD is 30|40|50%, sorry thought that was common knowledge. It's late and I've started doing funny statistics in my head, but...

If there's a 30% chance at doubling a value, that value's expected... value increases by 30%. If that value is only half of the equation (can't proc on ws's which is completely true by the way) then you should halve the 30% to come up with 15%. It's easy to do funny logic problems in your head when it comes to stats, but this sounds right.
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By Entourage 2011-08-09 06:47:34  
Cerberus.Fiasko said:
What is the proc rate of the ODD? Unless it is 15-20% I don't understand how it would be an increase of 15% to overall dmg. Also I assume the ODD cannot proc on WS which would further the argument that just the ODD wouldn't put it so far ahead.

Also, the parse above isn't much to go by. There is no way the warriors were playing the same style when the Ukon did 6 WS compared to 2. The sample size is incredibly small also. Of course Ukon will come out on top, but the principle difference is the ODD and the delay. (which depending on the build would be the 4% (482/504= .956 or 4.4%) lower delay compared to the 2%DA or 3% crit rate)

One would also have to see if you can maintain the 5 hit build with sword strap (with mashcu +2). I don't know if the 1.4% extra delay would allow you to keep the build without rose strap (4.4% - 3%).

the delay is a null factor tbh... ODD does in fact make that big of difference... with Ukonvasara more than any other weapon (easy crit dmg/rate+ in tp sets / high base dmg / high double attack)

I dont know the ODD rate off the top of my head (I have 3 emps what? lol)... 30%? at LEAST 15%
 Cerberus.Fiasko
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2011-08-09 06:50:59  
Entourage said:
Cerberus.Fiasko said:
What is the proc rate of the ODD? Unless it is 15-20% I don't understand how it would be an increase of 15% to overall dmg. Also I assume the ODD cannot proc on WS which would further the argument that just the ODD wouldn't put it so far ahead.

Also, the parse above isn't much to go by. There is no way the warriors were playing the same style when the Ukon did 6 WS compared to 2. The sample size is incredibly small also. Of course Ukon will come out on top, but the principle difference is the ODD and the delay. (which depending on the build would be the 4% (482/504= .956 or 4.4%) lower delay compared to the 2%DA or 3% crit rate)

One would also have to see if you can maintain the 5 hit build with sword strap (with mashcu +2). I don't know if the 1.4% extra delay would allow you to keep the build without rose strap (4.4% - 3%).

the delay is a null factor tbh... ODD does in fact make that big of difference... with Ukonvasara more than any other weapon (easy crit dmg/rate+ in tp sets / high base dmg / high double attack)

I dont know the ODD rate off the top of my head (I have 3 emps what? lol)... 30%? at LEAST 15%

That actually makes me incredibly happy and glad to hear (ODD rate), but I doubt in a game of marginal upgrades 4% increase in swings would be a null factor.
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