Samurai Discussion #93520123

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Samurai Discussion #93520123
Samurai Discussion #93520123
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 Siren.Clinpachi
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2011-08-27 03:37:58  


Samurai Discussion #93520123
I know there is a ton of these theads but most are old or locked. So upon returning after a few month hiatus i have been researching around both FFXIAH and Blugartr for some information regarding Fudo sets. It appears the extra 5STP we received recently mixes things up a little bit and there is about 1,000 variations + outdated crap.

With that being said i can say that being gone a bit makes the math a bit rusty

I'll start off posting my theory or anticipated gear for myself and let people judge what could be wrong/ideals for discussion (There is a ton of it i know). I will also post some stuff I've seen around BG or FFXI and inquire about those as well. I included sources of discussion as well as noted sets that peaked interest.



Theory 1

TP

WS (Berserk Up)


The set above is what I first anticipated as something typical. The biggest mistake i seen with most sets is there was a lack of berserk down or berserk up dependency. Then i saw something along these lines on Blue Gartr. My theoretical set features 24% haste with a 5 hit setup.

Ironguy Suggestion Theory (FFXIAH Post)

TP

WS (Berserk not defined)


This set looks very similar to mine, however the neck and ring are a big questionable item for me. Also it was suggested that the earring be augmented with Acc/Regain for TP phase instead of my theory which entailed TP bonus+25 and attack+4. This was also the original source of info on ire+1/bier+1 beating ele torque/belt for fudo.

BG Capped Haste Theory (Blue Gartr Post)

TP

WS (Berserk not defined)


At first glance this looks like a bit of a mess, the weapon skill set doesn't sit right with me at all and it was made relevant that beir belt+1 and ire torque+1 beat the elemental combo by a noticeable amount. I like the sound of capped haste though and part of the argument of this set was that it's a 5 hit that would 3 hit in a single zanshin proc during hasso with at least 4/5 Ikishoten.



Also don't be trollin'z in this thread or krizz will pwn you, glad FFXIAH mods buckled down on the retards.

Sources of research:
Blue Gartr Post - "What is better" (Page 149)
FFXIAH 5-Hit Masamune Thread (Page 8)
FFXIAH Tachi Fudo Thread
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 Siren.Clinpachi
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2011-08-27 03:38:10  
Noteworthy Sets Found on FFXIAH search for item sets:

User: Asura.Takinagi

WS (Berserk Down)

WS (Berserk Up)



User: Odin.Dirtyfinger

WS (Berserk Up)



User: Odin.Zelphes

WS (Berserk Down)

WS (Berserk Up)


User: Bismark.Lynxis

TP
 Siren.Clinpachi
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2011-08-27 03:42:21  
And onto the actual point of the thread, what do you use? Why? What are some suggestions and things you are thinking. Be detailed and to the point. With the addition of the store TP update things can be changed efficiently but finding that niche is a little more difficult now.

I would like to end with a quote that serves as the truth to the masamune and this thread in general:

Quote:
Amanomurakumo will most likely beat Masamune at 99, but the Msamune will be reminiscent of the hagun we used at 75. Pretty much the same situation will apply where Masamune will come decently close to Amano as Hagun did back then at the 75 cap. Anyone who played back then will understand this importance.
 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2011-08-27 04:47:27  
Outstanding post, Clinpachi.

I honestly thought you had retired, but glad to see you back in the fold.

With regards to the OP, this has been an area of interest for me recently. I'm working on Masamune. However, I'm almost always playing WHM or BLM at linkshell events and stuff, so SAM gets back-burned to "hobby" status for me a bit.

I understand, in general, the benefit and importance of Haste gear, especially in situations where you're getting Marches and Haste/Hastega buffs from mages. However, I'd venture to say that capped Haste is less important on SAM than it is for other jobs, such as MNK, THF, or WAR. Before anyone freaks out ... I'm not saying Haste equipment is unimportant ... I'm saying it's less important for SAM (compared to some other jobs).

With that in mind, I think it's ridiculous for a SAM to use White Tathlum, Unkai Mimikazari, and Tactical Mantle just so s/he can also use Zelus Tiara. Doing that surrenders (among other things) over 50 Attack from one's TP set (8 from Thew, 20 from Atheling, 15 from the penalty on Tactical, 3 from the STR from Bushinomimi/Thew, 5 from the Skill on Bushinomimi). If you're in a situation where you're crazy buffed with Attack buffs (Minuet, Chaos Roll, etc.), then who cares ... sure, use this whacky Zelus Tiara set-up. But without a double-bard or bard+corsair supporting cast, I'd advise against it.

Also, I agree with you that the augmented Moonshade Earring would be more practical in the WS set with TP bonus and attack augments, rather than the less-good idea of augmenting it with Regain for TP'ing.

Overall, of the three ideas you detailed in the OP, I like your idea, "Theory 1" the most.

With full Store TP merits and Level 90 Job Trait Store TP V, this set will give 20.7 TP per hit. And you're still getting 24% Haste from equipment.
Allows you to use this WS set:

which grants +82 Attack and +70 STR (not counting the +STR on level 90 Masamune, and not factoring in Ire+1/Beir+ accessories, since I'm unfamiliar with the data showing those to outclass the Elemental torque/belt).
One difference here in my version of your "Theory 1" WS set is using Unkai Haidate +2, instead of Hachiryu Haidate. I could be mistaken, but I don't think your WS set's hit gives enough TP (16.6 I think?) to reach 100 TP with 4 more hits in the TP gear (20.7 X 4 = 82.8; 82.8 + 16.6 = 99.4).
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 Bahamut.Kazius
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By Bahamut.Kazius 2011-08-27 05:38:17  
I own Masamune, and my sets are based around that of Theory 1, with a couple of minor changes to the TP set to allow me to WS in whatever I want.



Is the set I use at the moment, the only improvement being getting the Unkai earring as opposed to Attila's.



Is the Fudo set I use, which is pretty strong in my opinion.
In situations where i've got high attack, the main changes are I swap Byrnie+1 to Twilight body, and Centaurus Earring to STR. The only other upgrade is my TP bonus Moonshade Earring which i'm currently working on.

Edit: also forgot about Fazheluo Radiant Mail if I can ever get my hands on it.

These sets work very well for me, but I do get irritated that we can't achieve 26% without a fairly large sacrifice, as Elanabelle said, which has tempted me to make a Regain moonshade earring instead. I am also looking into a fun 6-hit build with all the fun bonus of being able to give up certain store TP pieces, but from what I gather a 6-hit is never relevant due to the ease of getting a 5-hit on SAM, especially now with increased Store TP trait.
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 06:44:43  
Siren.Clinpachi said: »
This set looks very similar to mine, however the neck and ring are a big questionable item for me. Also it was suggested that the earring be augmented with Acc/Regain for TP phase instead of my theory which entailed TP bonus+25 and attack+4. This was also the original source of info on ire+1/bier+1 beating ele torque/belt for fudo.

tl;dr: tp bonus moonshade earring with +4 attack is the ultimate (and only) way to go for dedicated masamune users (though it's a pretty amazing ukko's fury earring as well just in case you may feel as if you're wasting it on just samurai and dark knight :D:D:D)

as for tp and weapon skill set, there's really only one way to go about that for each blade as far as perfection sets go:

in the case of altered sets, say (primary case as of late), lacking ganesha's mala:

1) tp in unkai nodowa and bushinomimi (over unkai mimikazari): 20.9% x4
weapon skill in hachiryu haidate: 16.6% x1
total: 100.2%

2) tp in justice torque, agasaya's collar or rancor collar: 20.7% x4
weapon skill in unkai haidate +2: 17.4% x1
total: 100.2%


stayed up a sly bit longer than i would've preferred to write this out, but, i'd assume it'll end up being at least handy to one person, and that's what counts in the end
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 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2011-08-27 09:21:24  
Unkai Mimikazari is a really good TP piece with Hasso up.
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 09:24:54  
and with the drop of two mere words, i go on to delve for more information

i'm honestly and entirely surprised it isn't 1%, since iga mimikazari is (dual wield), and for the longest time they shafted zanshin equipment horrendously

hell, even full merits only add 5%

edit: unkai sugemino appears to be confirmed 5% on that note, though even still, that would be 1.2% hasso ikishoten zanshin rate added, which is on-par with atheling mantle during tp (with hasso up) at best if you ask me, and then the earring would be about an additional .75% hasso zanshin rate (assuming it's 3% and not 2% or 2.5%), so unfortunately, i can't quite see myself using that over bushinomimi if able/available, since samurai's prime place of use atm is where accuracy is relevant once more :(
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 09:47:25  
i just have to say, awesome posts from all contributors so far. though i love my sch, but i think i might have to change my refresh moonshade to tp bonus/attack :/
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 12:57:10  
Not to sound like a ***, but unless you start to involve people in this thread other than the people in this thread, you're all going to basically be inappropriately self-approving each other's guesses. There's way too much, "well yeah, but I bet attack would be more useful here", and "but I can't see this being better than this here" for anything to be even remotely conclusive. None of you are qualified to make definitive statements about any of the above equipment sets, which I certainly don't blame you for, but isn't going to produce the information you're looking for.

tl;dr outsource or ->
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 Ragnarok.Nemesio
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By Ragnarok.Nemesio 2011-08-27 13:18:32  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Not to sound like a ***, but unless you start to involve people in this thread other than the people in this thread, you're all going to basically be inappropriately self-approving each other's guesses. There's way too much, "well yeah, but I bet attack would be more useful here", and "but I can't see this being better than this here" for anything to be even remotely conclusive. None of you are qualified to make definitive statements about any of the above equipment sets, which I certainly don't blame you for, but isn't going to produce the information you're looking for.

tl;dr outsource or ->
Certainly helped me. I love bettering my Samurai. And an easy way to do so is by reading and seeing what works for others.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 13:22:31  
And if they're wrong? That's helpful to you? Seeing what works for others isn't beneficial if others aren't playing optimally.
 Bahamut.Cyaan
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By Bahamut.Cyaan 2011-08-27 13:24:21  
i augmented my shura kabuto with 1 str 5att 2% ws damage. was thinking its a good rana piece, but will it hold up on other ws as well compared to varangian helm?
 Siren.Clinpachi
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2011-08-27 13:25:35  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Not to sound like a ***, but unless you start to involve people in this thread other than the people in this thread, you're all going to basically be inappropriately self-approving each other's guesses. There's way too much, "well yeah, but I bet attack would be more useful here", and "but I can't see this being better than this here" for anything to be even remotely conclusive. None of you are qualified to make definitive statements about any of the above equipment sets, which I certainly don't blame you for, but isn't going to produce the information you're looking for.

tl;dr outsource or ->
What do you think the purpose of this post was lol. If the people from some of the sources want to come in and add more discussion by all means elaborate.

The truth of the matter is there may not be many reliable people to outsource to as tons of people just copy what they see others do, without even doing the math or understanding why.

So the question i have at the moment is, so its a waste to go the zelus route on SAM correct? I understand the 25.9% haste cap is super nice but I'm leaning on agreeing with Elanabelle. I just don't see justification in it.

Also (and this may help those who don't know) it's a huge mistake to make only 1 WS set for SAM, you definitely want to do one with berserk up and down. The reason behind that is once attack is capped you want to add more STR, and you only typically can achieve that during berserk up. With berserk being down fudo takes to kaiten in the ways that attack is superior to the STR mod.

This means anyone using spellcast needs to have a rule for if berserk up use this WS set... else use this one.

I received a ton of messages today about why i had listed several sets with that difference.
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 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2011-08-27 13:39:12  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
And if they're wrong? That's helpful to you? Seeing what works for others isn't beneficial if others aren't playing optimally.

There's a shred of truth in there ... and that's about it.
You sure sound like your thong got wedged in there a bit too tightly today, no?

You can learn from awful players.
You can learn from bad players.
You can learn from average players.
You can learn from good players.
You can learn from great players.

All I've seen in this thread (until you arrived) is quality information and discussion.

Thanks for messing that up .... not.
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 Siren.Clinpachi
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2011-08-27 13:44:59  
Warning, tons of numbers incomming
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkvUIqjaHVOIdE1Sbl9Zd0NSTVFfYTFtc1lPeTJfRUE&hl=en_US#gid=2

you WILL want to check this out, i'm still reviewing the information now... this will especially be important to those still using 6 hit builds.

EDIT:Compile your own spreadsheet here
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 15:57:06  
Siren.Clinpachi said: »
I understand the 25.9% haste cap is super nice but I'm leaning on agreeing with Elanabelle. I just don't see justification in it.

And like I said, you're not qualified to definitively make that call, and neither is Elanabelle. You don't know if the attack you're sacrificing is worth the additional haste, you're making blind judgement calls based on what you feel might be right. What you ought to be doing is looking for someone qualified, who in reference to this forum would likely be someone along the lines of Nightfyre or Byrth.

EDIT: Consider the following: if it were 2006, we'd all be meriting with 85% accuracy and yellow curry, because 85% accuracy was the imaginary number everyone agreed on to be the point where attack food was more beneficial than accuracy food. Any idea when it became commonly accepted that this wasn't the case? When Failure_Midgard from BG picked it apart mathematically several years later. The community had been doing things *** backwards for a long time, and the only reason for it was that lots and lots of unqualified players perpetuated the idea. Hell, it wasn't until nearly right before Abyssea began that people on these forums began to accept that Hachiman Domaru was a better TP piece in most instances than a Haub.+1.
 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2011-08-27 16:37:48  
Well it's a good thing we're discussing things, and bouncing ideas off each other, and listening to each others' experiences then, and not "definitively making any calls".

There are no (lol) qualifications for analyzing FFXI stuff.
There's only reported data pools and subjective opinions about those data pools' compilers and analyzers.

If Nightfyre wants to chime in here, I think Clinpachi would welcome it. Same for Byrth. And the same for anyone else who has the mental capacity to understand some math and game mechanics. However, what I'm pretty sure Clinpachi is not interested in is some clown bouncing in here and spouting off "you can't prove this or that; you're just guessing; you can't learn from someone who isn't doing something optimally" ... blah, blah, blah.

All things that become "proven" START with an idea, and a desire to test that idea. Before jumping to the "test" phase, it's best, in most cases, to streamline what exactly it is that's best to test. That way, one eliminates stuff that's unlikely to test well before wasting one's time testing it.

That's what we're doing here, I'm fairly certain.

There's a good reason why your analogy to 2006 is less meaningful than what I suspect you believe. In 2006, almost no North American players had any idea about advanced game mechanics. In that respect, you're right; almost all of us were throwing darts in a dark room. Now, however, many of us DO have knowledge of advanced game mechanics. And therefore, our "guesses" are far more educated now than they were in 2006. Although it would be a folly to accept our educated guesses, or hypotheses, without testing them out, it is NOT a folly to assume our modern-day hypotheses/guesses are more likely to be closer to the target than they were in 2006.

So ... until you're ready to share something USEFUL in this thread, Dodu ... take a hike?
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 Lakshmi.Emanuelle
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By Lakshmi.Emanuelle 2011-08-27 16:41:33  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Not to sound like a ***, but unless you start to involve people in this thread other than the people in this thread, you're all going to basically be inappropriately self-approving each other's guesses. There's way too much, "well yeah, but I bet attack would be more useful here", and "but I can't see this being better than this here" for anything to be even remotely conclusive. None of you are qualified to make definitive statements about any of the above equipment sets, which I certainly don't blame you for, but isn't going to produce the information you're looking for.

tl;dr outsource or ->
you again with non-sense trolls
 Lakshmi.Emanuelle
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By Lakshmi.Emanuelle 2011-08-27 16:42:54  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Siren.Clinpachi said: »
I understand the 25.9% haste cap is super nice but I'm leaning on agreeing with Elanabelle. I just don't see justification in it.

And like I said, you're not qualified to definitively make that call, and neither is Elanabelle. You don't know if the attack you're sacrificing is worth the additional haste, you're making blind judgement calls based on what you feel might be right. What you ought to be doing is looking for someone qualified, who in reference to this forum would likely be someone along the lines of Nightfyre or Byrth.

EDIT: Consider the following: if it were 2006, we'd all be meriting with 85% accuracy and yellow curry, because 85% accuracy was the imaginary number everyone agreed on to be the point where attack food was more beneficial than accuracy food. Any idea when it became commonly accepted that this wasn't the case? When Failure_Midgard from BG picked it apart mathematically several years later. The community had been doing things *** backwards for a long time, and the only reason for it was that lots and lots of unqualified players perpetuated the idea. Hell, it wasn't until nearly right before Abyssea began that people on these forums began to accept that Hachiman Domaru was a better TP piece in most instances than a Haub.+1.
total sarcasm coming from someone that post random conclusions about on a BST thread solo, without knowing anything about it. flaming with pointless comments.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 16:44:31  
Is 2% DA or 10 attack more beneficial when fighting something with 500 DEF when you yourself have 600 attack, ignoring increases in WS frequency, and assuming you already have 14% DA. Answer that and show your work.

If you can't answer that in mathematical detail, you're not capable of testing anything that comes out of these base ideas. In other words, you're guessing.

Edit: And people wonder why I post so harshly most of the time, when the few times I try to keep my responses as neat, tidy, and lacking any type of aggressive tone as possible, personal attacks show up anyway.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-08-27 16:44:54  
Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Siren.Clinpachi said: »
I understand the 25.9% haste cap is super nice but I'm leaning on agreeing with Elanabelle. I just don't see justification in it.

And like I said, you're not qualified to definitively make that call, and neither is Elanabelle. You don't know if the attack you're sacrificing is worth the additional haste, you're making blind judgement calls based on what you feel might be right. What you ought to be doing is looking for someone qualified, who in reference to this forum would likely be someone along the lines of Nightfyre or Byrth.

EDIT: Consider the following: if it were 2006, we'd all be meriting with 85% accuracy and yellow curry, because 85% accuracy was the imaginary number everyone agreed on to be the point where attack food was more beneficial than accuracy food. Any idea when it became commonly accepted that this wasn't the case? When Failure_Midgard from BG picked it apart mathematically several years later. The community had been doing things *** backwards for a long time, and the only reason for it was that lots and lots of unqualified players perpetuated the idea. Hell, it wasn't until nearly right before Abyssea began that people on these forums began to accept that Hachiman Domaru was a better TP piece in most instances than a Haub.+1.
total sarcasm coming from someone that post random conclusions about on a bst thread solo without knowing anything about it.

Thanks for bringing your bst drama to a sam thread, good job!
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 16:48:37  
Chill.
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 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 16:57:38  
Dodu, stop reporting the posts in this thread.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-08-27 16:59:30  
Are you kidding me? Look at the post above you.

And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-27 17:02:55  
Why is everyone picking on Matty? :(

♥ you Matt
 Phoenix.Darkwizardzin
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By Phoenix.Darkwizardzin 2011-08-27 17:05:22  
....why so much hate? (on both sides)
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-08-27 17:06:53  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
And why are you publicly announcing issues of moderation? That's what personal messages are for.
Read the rules.
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 17:08:55  
Austar I'm 10 minutes from home, solve this thread by then or you're fired

Kthx
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