[Dev] Dragoon Adjustments

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » [Dev] Dragoon Adjustments
[Dev] Dragoon Adjustments
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2012-01-20 16:17:12  
Artemicion said: »
I'm not quite sure I understand what they mean by the window activation for Healing Breath IV where you need to stop attacking/dealing damage.
Will it not activate until you stop hitting the target? Or is it possible to get it off within the window of delay between attacks? Might be as simple as simply turning the other way as you macro it.
When you stop to cast a spell or use the JA it pauses your attack rounds. This delay is true of any job. If you boost every 15 seconds on mnk you'll screw your damage over. This is an example of this.

You'll also be macroing in various wyvern hp gear for it so not only do you lower your damage a little each time you cast or use the ja but if your attack round goes off in that gear then you loose a lot of damage and the haste for the next attack round.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:17:27  
Artemicion said: »
I'm not quite sure I understand what they mean by the window activation for Healing Breath IV where you need to stop attacking/dealing damage.
Will it not activate until you stop hitting the target? Or is it possible to get it off within the window of delay between attacks? Might be as simple as simply turning the other way as you macro it.
I'm thinking that it's like a JA delay. You stand there looking like a idiot not swinging until the delay is over :(
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:18:40  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Artemicion said: »
I'm not quite sure I understand what they mean by the window activation for Healing Breath IV where you need to stop attacking/dealing damage.
Will it not activate until you stop hitting the target? Or is it possible to get it off within the window of delay between attacks? Might be as simple as simply turning the other way as you macro it.
When you stop to cast a spell or use the JA it pauses your attack rounds. This delay is true of any job. If you boost every 15 seconds on mnk you'll screw your damage over. This is an example of this.

You'll also be macroing in various wyvern hp gear for it so not only do you lower your damage a little each time you cast or use the ja but if your attack round goes off in that gear then you loose a lot of damage and the haste for the next attack round.
This is the same reason dnc doesn't use its flourishes and steps a lot right?
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2012-01-20 16:20:03  
Siren.Kalilla said: »
Artemicion said: »
I'm not quite sure I understand what they mean by the window activation for Healing Breath IV where you need to stop attacking/dealing damage.
Will it not activate until you stop hitting the target? Or is it possible to get it off within the window of delay between attacks? Might be as simple as simply turning the other way as you macro it.
I'm thinking that it's like a JA delay. You stand there looking like a idiot not swinging until the delay is over :(
Precisely. I'm pretty sure it's a default of 2 seconds but it might be just your weapon's attack delay with a minimum of 2 seconds.

I've not paid 'that' much attention to it since often I'm flipping gear so often I blink and miss the attack animations anyway so I've never really gotten a good feel for how long it really is but I'm sure someone knows for certain.

Edit:

Siren.Kalilla said: »
This is the same reason dnc doesn't use its flourishes and steps a lot right?
Yes. The delay hurts their dot.
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By Artemicion 2012-01-20 16:21:29  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Artemicion said: »
I'm not quite sure I understand what they mean by the window activation for Healing Breath IV where you need to stop attacking/dealing damage.
Will it not activate until you stop hitting the target? Or is it possible to get it off within the window of delay between attacks? Might be as simple as simply turning the other way as you macro it.
When you stop to cast a spell or use the JA it pauses your attack rounds. This delay is true of any job. If you boost every 15 seconds on mnk you'll screw your damage over. This is an example of this.

You'll also be macroing in various wyvern hp gear for it so not only do you lower your damage a little each time you cast or use the ja but if your attack round goes off in that gear then you loose a lot of damage and the haste for the next attack round.

I see, I thought it was a secondary condition of sorts.
But yeah, spamming JAs really screws over your DPS since it's a stacked delay on top of your weapon as well. Haste takes time to proc indeed :(
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:25:54  
I thought the delay was 1 sec after any ja, no?
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By Artemicion 2012-01-20 16:32:20  
I can understand constant JA use hurting a dual wielding or single handed weapon of relatively low delay, especially when things like dual wield are put into the factor, but how severe would it affect those with higher delay weapons? Especially the heavy spear types since we're speaking about Dragoon here.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:36:53  
Ophannus said: »
Damage is not increased, the JP version of the post says "With the lowered recast, [Dragoon's] overall damage output will increase."


He just edited his post:

Camate said:
Just wanted to note that I edited my post above for clarity.

It's not that each Jump was made more powerful, but the overall damage output of dragoon.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:37:56  
Artemicion said: »
I can understand constant JA use hurting a dual wielding or single handed weapon of relatively low delay, especially when things like dual wield are put into the factor, but how severe would it affect those with higher delay weapons? Especially the heavy spear types since we're speaking about Dragoon here.
Idk, but wouldn't it be the same overall % of dmg lost?

Like say a dnc lost 15% dmg over time, I would think a 1 handed melee would also loose out on 15%.
By volkom 2012-01-20 16:40:14  
drg so OP

drg/sam
sit on 100 tp,
meditate, ws, ws, spirit jump, ws, soul jump, sekanoki ws, ws
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-01-20 16:41:11  
Hardly overpowered, it's just slightly catching up.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-20 16:53:59  
Siren.Kalilla said: »
Artemicion said: »
I can understand constant JA use hurting a dual wielding or single handed weapon of relatively low delay, especially when things like dual wield are put into the factor, but how severe would it affect those with higher delay weapons? Especially the heavy spear types since we're speaking about Dragoon here.
Idk, but wouldn't it be the same overall % of dmg lost?

Like say a dnc lost 15% dmg over time, I would think a 1 handed melee would also loose out on 15%.
Nvm, just did a quick thing in excel and I guess not.

Redid it, think this is better:

Fast weapon hits every second, Slow weapon hits every other second.

Fast Weapon: 5 swings then 2 sec delay.
Slow Weapon: 2.5 swings then 2 sec delay.

Came out to be~~~~

Fast Weapon: 27% loss
Slow Weapon: 23% loss

So... I'm not sure >.>

I had 1 more swing on the slow weapon then the fast during the last round, if i took that away it would both be 27%.

So, I'm not doing it right I guess >.> or I was right the first time. Either way idk ; ;
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By Ophannus 2012-01-21 13:25:49  
Quote:
drg so OP

drg/sam
sit on 100 tp,
meditate, ws, ws, spirit jump, ws, soul jump, sekanoki ws, ws

Considering I have excellent gear for DRG and have temps and food and my Stardivers/Drakesbanes do maybe 700-1700 on things like Pil while SAM does 2800 Shoha and COR does 1700-2.7k Last Stands I don't think DRG is overpowered. Last night was doing some Kalasutrax and my WS almost never broke 400-650 even when stances were in MDT(Unless Naraka mobs have 50% resistence to piercing like Skeletons do). Pretty sad none the less when a COR outdamages a damage dealer job on the reg.


On trash mobs I excel and do 2-3k+ WS on things but on hardcore T6 VNM I'm lucky to break 800, even with 1200+ attack from food/stalwarts/bard and Augmented Angon and Dia III.
 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2012-01-21 23:56:19  
These adjustments definitely make DRG sexier.

I suppose we'll still hear "lolDRG" though ... at least until the Ukko's Fury nerf settles in.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-01-22 00:00:54  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said: »
These adjustments definitely make DRG sexier.

I suppose we'll still hear "lolDRG" though ... at least until the Ukko's Fury nerf settles in.

Uh.... well I don't support the lolDRG crap, even after the nerd, WAR will still be the best DD. It doesnt make other jobs stronger.
 Bismarck.Recaldy
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By Bismarck.Recaldy 2012-01-22 00:10:59  
If people would stop overpriceing currencies. ><;
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 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2012-01-22 08:25:03  
Sylph.Kimble said: »
Bismarck.Elanabelle said: »
These adjustments definitely make DRG sexier.

I suppose we'll still hear "lolDRG" though ... at least until the Ukko's Fury nerf settles in.

Uh.... well I don't support the lolDRG crap, even after the nerd, WAR will still be the best DD. It doesnt make other jobs stronger.

True, nerfing one job doesn't make others stronger.

However, you're bright enough to know that, by comparison, when one job's abilities/strengths are reduced, the "playing field" is made more level/even. Combine the reduction in WAR effectiveness with this boost to DRG effectiveness, and I'd say you should withhold your smugness until the changes are implemented, because it's entirely possible that DRG could end-up "on par" with WAR in some situations.

For the record, I play neither WAR nor DRG, so I don't have a "horse in the race" to bias my opinion here.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2012-01-22 08:56:28  
The absolute top dd position was pretty close between them based on previous calculations right? I don't know if the current math and comparisons are still similar enough to what they were but back a while ago a claim was made that a Ryuu drg and a Ukon war were basically on par.

Now I think this is somewhat variable based on what you're fighting but how accurate is this now? Has there been any recent recalculations based on what we know now?
 Lakshmi.Aanalaty
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By Lakshmi.Aanalaty 2012-01-22 10:28:59  
/shrug ive won every parse ive done lately by miles as drg (that i wasnt dead for most of the fight). You guys must suck at drg!

/trollface

<3
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By Fenrir.Rohauce 2012-01-22 11:01:05  
I'm so lucky I invested in the Defense down Polearm ages ago XD
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By Shiva.Durtiesweat 2012-01-24 18:27:49  
Either give our drg some kind of regen effect or shorten call dragon ja. Can we have that?
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-25 19:57:34  
Update on topic today:

01-25-2012 06:42 PM
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Camate
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Howdy!

I have some comments about dragoon adjustments in regards to some feedback we have received.

  • Wyverns
    In response to the issue of feeling weaker when a wyvern is defeated, we will look into increasing the overall endurance of wyverns. There was also an idea to shorten the recast timer for “Call Wyvern” since wyverns are defeated relatively frequently, but we decided that it would be better if players tried to keep their wyverns alive as long as possible.

    Thus, our main objective is to adjust wyverns so that they are not easily defeated in relation to their 20 minute recast time. This will involve adjustments to endurance, healing methods and other tweaks to keep wyverns alive.

    • Healing methods
      We have previously mentioned that we will shorten the recast time for Spirit Link, but we are also looking into some other adjustments. In order to further increase the survival rate of wyverns, we are looking into doubling the healing amount of Spirit Link and adding a regen effect. We have previously stated that we are considering recovery items for wyverns, but we will re-evaluate this idea after the adjustments to Spirit Link.
       
    • Leveling wyverns
      The spec for wyverns leveling up from repeating battles is valid in situations where there are many battles, but is not valid for NM battles and zones where EXP cannot be gained. This may be a modest adjustment, but we are looking into adding the effect “Wyvern levels up with a certain probability” to Empathy.
       
    • AoE damage
      Regarding the issue of wyverns not being able to approach monsters because they are instantly knocked out from AoE attacks, the same can be said for other pets and player characters. This issue is not resolved by simply adjusting characters and pets. Instead, it would be necessary to adjust the damage dealt by AoE attacks. We are currently looking into adjusting certain AoE attacks in Voidwatch.
       
    • Breath weakness in Voidwatch
      We acknowledge that it is difficult to proc weakness due to the fact that it is not possible to select which breath is used. However, we will not make a job adjustment to add abilities just so that it becomes easier to proc weakness. Rather, we look into adjustments to make content more enjoyable.

      Also we are not looking into allowing players to select which breath is used. This would go against the concept of pets. Wyverns simply aid player characters in battle, so it should not be possible for players to freely control all aspects of wyverns.
       
    • Cure Breath
      Cure Breath only cures status ailments that affect the character’s ability to battle in the front-line, which is why we did not include silence or mute. It would be convenient if Cure Breath can cure a wider variety of status ailments as an AoE spell, but we decided on the current specs considering its balance with other jobs’ status ailment curing spells and waltzes.

  • Jump
    Regarding Jump and High Jump, we decided to restrict the adjustments to increasing damage dealt, so we will only be shortening the recast timer for now. (We are scrapping the idea of allowing High Jump to lower hate for the party member closest to the player from behind.)

    We want to avoid players only using Spirit Jump and Soul Jump because they have a wyvern. Rather, we would like players to choose between “Jump and High Jump” or “Soul Jump and Spirit Jump” based on the circumstances.

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By Caitsith.Eriina 2012-01-26 00:34:10  
Siren.Kalilla said: »
Update on topic today:

01-25-2012 06:42 PM
[source]
Camate
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Cure Breath
Cure Breath only cures status ailments that affect the character’s ability to battle in the front-line, which is why we did not include silence or mute.
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This attitude toward front line jobs is antiquated and irresponsible. NIN PLD and BLU are all commonly accepted front line jobs wich rely heavily on magic use to play effectively. The DRG HIMSELF must rely on magic to play as /Mage in order to even have access to status ailment cure breaths. Back line front line is not an acceptable excuse for not adding silena breath. Please add silena breath.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn 2012-01-26 00:48:44  
Caitsith.Eriina said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
Update on topic today:

01-25-2012 06:42 PM
[source]
Camate
Community Rep


 
Cure Breath
Cure Breath only cures status ailments that affect the character’s ability to battle in the front-line, which is why we did not include silence or mute.
Subscribe

This attitude toward front line jobs is antiquated and irresponsible. NIN PLD and BLU are all commonly accepted front line jobs wich rely heavily on magic use to play effectively. The DRG HIMSELF must rely on magic to play as /Mage in order to even have access to status ailment cure breaths. Back line front line is not an acceptable excuse for not adding silena breath. Please add silena breath.

echo drops? in either case the real issue i see is needing to sub mage job to actually gain these status removal breaths(or did i miss that change?) as it stands subbing mage seems like an isolated situation these days with restoring breath JA
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By Ophannus 2012-01-26 07:43:16  
Update observations.

Job Ability Timers

Jump/Spirit Jump: With merits, recast= 50 seconds.
High/Soul Jump: With merits, recast= 100 seconds(1min, 40 seconds)
Spirit Link: With no merits, recast=90 seconds(1min, 20 seconds)

Jump Range
It's hard to gauge without distance plugin but if I had to guesstimate, range on High Jump, Soul Jump and Super Jump have increased from 10' to 15'. Jump and Spirit Jump have remained unchanged.

Skill Caps
(Assuming 15 HP merits, 4 Parrying merits and 4 Evasion merits.)
HP(Hume):1643~>1708
Evasion Skill: 376~>406
Parrying Skill: 381~>396

Healing Breath IV Tests.

Healing Breath III(Before Update)

WyvernTP:0%
Head:Wyrm Armet+2
Body:Wyvern Mail
Hands:Ostreger Mitts
Ear:Lancer's Earring
Neck:Lancer's Torque
Back:Lancer's Pelerine
Waist:Glassblower's Belt
Legs: Drachen Brais+1
Feet:Wyrm Greaves+2

Total: 748
With Deep Breathing: 1228


Healing Breath IV
WyvernTP:0%

Head:Wyrm Armet+2
Body:Wyvern Mail
Hands:Ostreger Mitts
Ear:Lancer's Earring
Neck:Lancer's Torque
Back:Lancer's Pelerine
Waist:Glassblower's Belt
Legs: Drachen Brais+1
Feet:Wyrm Greaves+2

Total:887
With Deep Breathing: 1472
Wyvern EXP Bonus: 1095
Wyvern EXP Bonus+Deep Breathing:1831

(The animation is very short and disappointingly less dramatic and a bit underwhelming compared to HBIII, it's like a quick and super faint sparkle effect that's hardly noticable)

With 300% Wyvern TP can probably get about 1200 HBIV without Deep Breathing and well over 2,000 with 300% Wyvern TP.
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By Siren.Ihm 2012-01-26 07:51:13  
Could you test naked HB3 and 4 please, no gear at all, and I'll try and calculate the modifier. The formula for 3 is

Code
FLOOR(0.1757*(Drachen Brais Bonus + Wyvern XP Bonus + 1)*(Helm Bonus + Wyvern TP Bonus + Deep Breathing Bonus + 1)*(Wyv. HP + Wyv +HP gear)+42)

as I'm sure you know, the modifier being the 0.1757 part, at a guess its raised to somewhere nearer to .2, but calculating it is slightly more annoying when gear is involved.

I don't have access to the test server otherwise I'd get the numbers myself.
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By Ophannus 2012-01-26 11:27:57  
Naked HBIV = 365. Looks like the modifier is now 0.2391. So that makes it somehwere between 61/256 and 62/256 but it doesn't come out cleanly. HB III was 45/256.

Interestingly they removed the charging animation from the Wyverns outside of battle. It no longer crunches over with orange lines of energy feeding in to it anymore it just remains flying/attacking for a sec or two. This is the case for both HB triggered with spells and with Restoring Breath. There's still a short delay to allow gear to be macroed in however.

Inside battle the charge animation is present.

Spirit Surge is still 60 seconds btw.
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By Siren.Ihm 2012-01-26 12:30:09  
Ophannus said: »
Naked HBIV = 365. Looks like the modifier is now 0.2391. So that makes it somehwere between 61/256 and 62/256 but it doesn't come out cleanly. HB III was 45/256.

Interestingly they removed the charging animation from the Wyverns outside of battle. It no longer crunches over with orange lines of energy feeding in to it anymore it just remains flying/attacking for a sec or two. This is the case for both HB triggered with spells and with Restoring Breath. There's still a short delay to allow gear to be macroed in however.

Inside battle the charge animation is present.

Spirit Surge is still 60 seconds btw.

Thats a pretty fantastic increase in HB potency, I'm happy XD. Pity the gear delay still exists, annoying in those more laggy situations.

I thought Surge was being made 90 though O.o. Hmm...
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By Ophannus 2012-01-26 15:25:59  
They left it at 60 seconds since they're making it stack with equipment and magic haste(which is dumb since Last Resort does the same thing but is 5min recast and 3 min duration)

Also I think right now the animation for HBIV is either bugged or not implemented or not created yet, it looks identical to HB1 or at least a lot like it.

Also don't assume the modifier is the same for HBIV as it is for HBIII with the subtracting 45 and such from HP*.17
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By Siren.Ihm 2012-01-26 15:43:01  
Ophannus said: »
They left it at 60 seconds since they're making it stack with equipment and magic haste(which is dumb since Last Resort does the same thing but is 5min recast and 3 min duration)

Also I think right now the animation for HBIV is either bugged or not implemented or not created yet, it looks identical to HB1 or at least a lot like it.

Also don't assume the modifier is the same for HBIV as it is for HBIII with the subtracting 45 and such from HP*.17

I don't get what you mean in that last bit >.>?

I worked the modifier as the same number as you, 0.2391.

Btw, last time I checked Wyvern at 99 has 1351 HP, if you wondered...