Windbuffet Belt Or Beir Belt+1

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Windbuffet Belt or Beir Belt+1
Windbuffet Belt or Beir Belt+1
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By gymj1m 2012-01-12 12:02:56  
Hiya~

I was just wondering if anyone smart in the mathematics department could tell me what would be better to WS in for Shoha [Outside onry].

Thanks in advance~
 Asura.Vrytreya
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By Asura.Vrytreya 2012-01-12 12:40:08  
I wonder if there's a limit on relying to a very small chance with extreme boost.

Say there's a belt with septuple attack+0.3%; Even if one can mathematically shows that will win than any other option; People probably won't use it due to the shear amount of WS you need to do in order to see it proc'ing once.
Couple minutes fight won't produce a stable number as we calculated in "average outcome"
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By gymj1m 2012-01-12 17:13:12  
Well I'm not running a parser and I know eyeballing doesn't really count but from what I've seen, I miss the second hit less, do pretty much the same dmg, but have chance to spike 5k outside..
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-13 10:52:03  
gymj1m said: »
Hiya~ I was just wondering if anyone smart in the mathematics department could tell me what would be better to WS in for Shoha [Outside onry]. Thanks in advance~


I didn't play with it much, because I thought this was a troll post as first since we alrady knew Elebelt > Bier+1. But Windbuffet does really well for Shoha on paper.

Windbuffet > Ele belt > Bier+1 For Shoha

Bier+1 > Ele belt > Windbuffet for Fudo
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By gymj1m 2012-01-13 21:56:44  
Awesome, thanks I've built my ws set pretty much with DA And STR thanks to avant, 19% DA without /war getting very consistent 3.6k shoha's.

I appreciate the input~
 Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn
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By Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn 2012-01-13 23:10:25  
Cerberus.Taint said: »
gymj1m said: »
Hiya~ I was just wondering if anyone smart in the mathematics department could tell me what would be better to WS in for Shoha [Outside onry]. Thanks in advance~


I didn't play with it much, because I thought this was a troll post as first since we alrady knew Elebelt > Bier+1. But Windbuffet does really well for Shoha on paper.

Windbuffet > Ele belt > Bier+1 For Shoha

Bier+1 > Ele belt > Windbuffet for Fudo

Really? is this assuming your shoha build?<its similiar to mines so i wouldnt mind grabbing a belt if its better> which raises another question, would mala > gorget?
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By gymj1m 2012-01-14 08:21:49  
Was thinking oneiros also, but I'm not sure when to draw the line on taking away STR from a 100% STR mod ._.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-14 08:25:15  
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
Cerberus.Taint said: »
gymj1m said: »
Hiya~ I was just wondering if anyone smart in the mathematics department could tell me what would be better to WS in for Shoha [Outside onry]. Thanks in advance~
I didn't play with it much, because I thought this was a troll post as first since we alrady knew Elebelt > Bier+1. But Windbuffet does really well for Shoha on paper. Windbuffet > Ele belt > Bier+1 For Shoha Bier+1 > Ele belt > Windbuffet for Fudo
Really? is this assuming your shoha build?<its similiar to mines so i wouldnt mind grabbing a belt if its better> which raises another question, would mala > gorget?


Gorget was coming out the best, i'll play with it some more.

Edit:
Gorget/Wind > Gorget/Ele=Mala/Ele > Mala/Wind
 Ragnarok.Jajabiondina
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By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-26 22:36:15  
Gorget & elemental belt>everything else.
 Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-27 12:51:17  
Single hits like Fudo and Kaiten are better off with the Elemental Belt. On multi-hit weaponskills, Windbuffet is better than the Elemental belt unless you have low accuracy. The TA/QA can proc on two hits so it has twice the potency on a multi-hit weaponskill as a single hit weaponskill.

Any weaponskill with more than one hit will benefit more from Windbuffet over the Elemental Belt, unless you need the accuracy, or if the weaponskill carries the ftp across all hits, in which case the Elemental belt is almost always the best.

It starts to be less effective on weaponskills with more than two hits, yet still optimal with Rana due to it's low 35% WSC.

Weaponskills with more than two hits will benefit more from Windbuffet over the Elemental belt. But, a belt that increases the weaponskill's WSC mod will typically be the best choice for a weaponskill with more than two hits, assuming it has a high WSC mod.

Unless you are lacking accuracy where either Anguinus or the Elemental belt will be more beneficial. Anguinus is plausible if you're sporting an incredibly low attack and the weaponskill has a low WSC.

tl;dr
YGK/Fudo/Kaiten = Elemental
Shoha = Windbuffet
Rana = Windbuffet/Elemental/Anguinus; potency is in that order, depending on ACC/ATT.
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2012-01-27 12:57:01  
Where does the Prosilio fit in here? 9 STR but has 25 attack, with DA-5. Or is that mainly a belt for other jobs?
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-27 13:12:20  
Odin.Eikechi said: »
Where does the Prosilio fit in here? 9 STR but has 25 attack, with DA-5. Or is that mainly a belt for other jobs?

Only time I see that being useful is an 8-hit weaponskill with 100% str mod, no DA gear at all, and incredibly low attack. But I honestly don't know because I've never seriously considered it, I'll take a look I guess.
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2012-01-27 13:17:27  
Well I thought about it for pup, honestly. Pup needs attack and pummel is str/vit and already like 6 hits with off-hand... But that's another thread I guess.
 Ragnarok.Jajabiondina
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By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-27 13:28:32  
So what, for shoha you give away the nice ftp from ele.belt which adds dmg on every ws for lol stats? i'm better doing good constant dmg then having a random spike, also rana is a huge att sink att/str>anything
 Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-27 13:29:00  
Didn't spend a lot of time on it, but from what I can tell. If you're hurting for attack it's actually pretty good for multi-hit weaponskills that have a heavier str mod (ground breaking discovery).

At no point is this belt viable for SAM.
 Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-27 13:34:58  
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »
So what, for shoha you give away the nice ftp from ele.belt which adds dmg on every ws for lol stats? i'm better doing good constant dmg then having a random spike, also rana is a huge att sink att/str>anything

The average FTP increase from Windbuffet is greater than the static FTP increase on Elemental.

2% TA = .04% increase on one hit, .08% increase on two hit.
1% QA = .03% increase on one hit, .06% increase on two hit.

For Shoha, a two hit weaponskill, Windbuffet increases the average FTP of a weaponskill by .14. The Elemental belt only gives .10.

So no, you're not better using Elemental belt for an average .10 increase compared to a 3 point increase 2% of the time and a 2 point increase 4 percent of the time.

Yes, att is a huge deal for Rana, but food, stalwarts, and berserk all exist.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Neonracer
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By Ragnarok.Neonracer 2012-01-27 14:07:58  
I know that every item is situational, but to add a little more that, a Thf at 99 then.... Windbuffet or Twilight???
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By Gimpness 2012-01-27 14:28:04  
Ragnarok.Neonracer said: »
I know that every item is situational, but to add a little more that, a Thf at 99 then.... Windbuffet or Twilight???

tping... twilight.

wsing... I would think there are others that do more for evis/rudra's

nooooooooow :3... the 9 str, 25 att, -5 da belt would be great if you have AC up on evis.

edit: I take that back, I have no idea about rudra's... but evis can only TA once I think... so windbuffet would be sorta pointless, no? >.>

edit again: if you're seriously considering wsing in twilight or are going to fulltime whatever gear you use... stop playing thf.
 Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-27 14:29:43  
Ragnarok.Neonracer said: »
I know that every item is situational, but to add a little more that, a Thf at 99 then.... Windbuffet or Twilight???

Considering you left almost no information. I'd have to say no. For TP, there is no set that I can see where Windbuffet would outweigh Twilight. I might be wrong because I don't know or care enough about my THF to know every single possible TP set, but I honestly don't see it happening. And there is absolutely no possibility that 2% DA will ever be better than Windbuffet on any weaponskill, ever.

Edit: also, as Gimpness stated, there will almost definitely be better choices than Windbuffet for weaponskills too. But again, I don't know a buttload about thf.
 Caitsith.Sai
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By Caitsith.Sai 2012-01-27 16:04:08  
Odin.Eikechi said: »
Where does the Prosilio fit in here? 9 STR but has 25 attack, with DA-5. Or is that mainly a belt for other jobs?

Good for War using Warrior's Charge no?

Edit: My bad Sam forum
 Ragnarok.Jajabiondina
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By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-27 17:56:14  
Looks like i'm wrong, windbuffet its is indeed better for shoha.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-27 18:06:09  
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »
Looks like i'm wrong, windbuffet its is indeed better for shoha.


Yeah as long as you are capped on ACC it wins. It actually wins for a lot of WSs that would overwise consider their elemental belt.
 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2012-02-10 04:57:53  
Bahamut.Danthebk said: »
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »
So what, for shoha you give away the nice ftp from ele.belt which adds dmg on every ws for lol stats? i'm better doing good constant dmg then having a random spike, also rana is a huge att sink att/str>anything

The average FTP increase from Windbuffet is greater than the static FTP increase on Elemental.

2% TA = .04% increase on one hit, .08% increase on two hit.
1% QA = .03% increase on one hit, .06% increase on two hit.

For Shoha, a two hit weaponskill, Windbuffet increases the average FTP of a weaponskill by .14. The Elemental belt only gives .10.

So no, you're not better using Elemental belt for an average .10 increase compared to a 3 point increase 2% of the time and a 2 point increase 4 percent of the time.

Yes, att is a huge deal for Rana, but food, stalwarts, and berserk all exist.


This is completely correct but you are ignoring some other factors that would decrease the effect from windbuffet belt

Diminishing return from DA QA and TA from other sources
also hit rate is cap at 95% so that 14% chance of getting an extra hit in is "only" 14*0.95 = 13.3 % of landing the hit making it only 0.133ftp increase in average

-- edit--

also is extra hits on soha only 1ftp or do they also have the ftp like the first hit ? if they do have ftp liek the first hit that clearsly makes windbuffet belt even more powerfull as the geisn is not 1ftp per landed hit but 1.375.


Some ppl say that all hits in the merrited ws has the ftp like the first hit
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-02-10 09:19:38  
Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said: »
Bahamut.Danthebk said: »
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »
So what, for shoha you give away the nice ftp from ele.belt which adds dmg on every ws for lol stats? i'm better doing good constant dmg then having a random spike, also rana is a huge att sink att/str>anything
The average FTP increase from Windbuffet is greater than the static FTP increase on Elemental. 2% TA = .04% increase on one hit, .08% increase on two hit. 1% QA = .03% increase on one hit, .06% increase on two hit. For Shoha, a two hit weaponskill, Windbuffet increases the average FTP of a weaponskill by .14. The Elemental belt only gives .10. So no, you're not better using Elemental belt for an average .10 increase compared to a 3 point increase 2% of the time and a 2 point increase 4 percent of the time. Yes, att is a huge deal for Rana, but food, stalwarts, and berserk all exist.
This is completely correct but you are ignoring some other factors that would decrease the effect from windbuffet belt Diminishing return from DA QA and TA from other sources also hit rate is cap at 95% so that 14% chance of getting an extra hit in is "only" 14*0.95 = 13.3 % of landing the hit making it only 0.133ftp increase in average -- edit-- also is extra hits on soha only 1ftp or do they also have the ftp like the first hit ? if they do have ftp liek the first hit that clearsly makes windbuffet belt even more powerfull as the geisn is not 1ftp per landed hit but 1.375. Some ppl say that all hits in the merrited ws has the ftp like the first hit


Extra hits are 1.0