90 Masamune Vs TP Bonus GKT Vs 95 Amano

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90 Masamune vs TP Bonus GKT vs 95 Amano
 Shiva.Paulu
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By Shiva.Paulu 2012-03-06 16:21:02  
Oh I had just skimmed it. My mistake. I admit I can't follow the math all too well, but wouldn't it be rare to have capped pDIF?
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-06 16:21:25  
Asura.Fondue said: »
where is 95amano using kaiten with capped pDIF in that? 3.0 ftp 25% damage boost also 124 base damage I dont mean physically where in the calculation you just did, I mean where does it rank up


2747.014326


Thats at exactly 100tp and no moonshade. Kaiten is a very good WS at 100tp, the second you go above Fudo craps on it. (Haga,Sekki,moonshade,wings,DA/TA/QA overflow etc) 99 Kaiten pulls ahead of Fudo a lot of the time.

99Masa > 99Amano > 95Masa > 90Masa > 95Amano > Tpbonus > 85Masa > 90Amano
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 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-06 16:24:01  
Shiva.Paulu said: »
Oh I had just skimmed it. My mistake. I admit I can't follow the math all too well, but wouldn't it be rare to have capped pDIF?


Not on old content, heavily buffed zergs, new nyzul etc.
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 Asura.Fondue
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By Asura.Fondue 2012-03-06 16:26:38  
thanks for the info sir '-')/
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By Fupafighters 2012-03-06 16:30:06  
Cool taint haha. Well if people actually make a good fudo set, you can crack up to 4k in VW on non tier 6 monsters btw. That's pretty good for fudo for only using it x2 max a fight lol.
 Asura.Vrytreya
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By Asura.Vrytreya 2012-03-06 20:30:50  
Cerberus.Taint said: »
Valefor.Caelir said: »
Asura.Fondue said: »
Fupafighters said: »
masa 90 because in other situations, the fudo can do some good numbers too. VW, amano will win. But who gives a ***about what a sam can do in ONE event out of how many.
what
What Fondue said.... I cant imagine in any situation where Fudo will be used except for aftermath.

Fudo 60% STR
100TP: 3.75
200TP: 4.75
300TP: 5.75

114 - base damage

20 - fSTR

237 - STR (just/beir+1)+13
60 - mod
0.85 - alpha

120.87

3.75 - fTP

2.25 - pDIF


2150.465625


103% - Shura+1 WSdmg+3


2214.979594

119% - overwelm

2635.825717



Shoha 100% STR (after gorget and 2nd hit)
100TP: 1.375 (2.475)
200TP: 2.15 (3.25)
300TP: 2.65 (3.75)


114

20

214 (gorget/windbuffet)
100
0.85

181.9

2.765

2.25


1965.292875


103%


2024.251661

119%

2408.859477
237-214 != 13

Also mekira-oto+1 works better on Shoha rather than Shura Zunari Kabuto +1. (well nvm, probably not)

And if you consider the DA probability, Shoha will pull further due to higher D before http://fTP.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-07 08:18:58  
Asura.Vrytreya said: »
237-214 != 13 Also mekira-oto+1 works better on Shoha rather than Shura Zunari Kabuto +1. (well nvm, probably not) And if you consider the DA probability, Shoha will pull further due to higher D before http://fTP.


I knew I would mess up lol. I did it really fast at work using old data I had.

2473.675259 With -13str is the correct number.

DA would effect Shoha more at lower TP lvls. (Fudo scales better)

100tp
3 hit Shoha - 3368.313689

2 hit Fudo - 3338.712574



300tp
3hit Shoha - 4249.532543

2hit Fudo - 4744.48629


Obviously capping pDIF with Shoha is a hell of a lot easier then Fudo. Fudo is a very nice WS when buffed which is why maintaining AM is not as big of a deal as most people try to make it out to be.

I did not account for TPbonus moonshade (which everyone should have)


I just wanted to clarify my post: Shoha > Fudo most of the time. Fudo benefits from SC properties and a high http://fTP. (and ofcourse AM with Masa) Shoha benefits from an att bonus (est 40%), 100wsc. (being a 2hit WS can be argued either way) When I look back at my parses I do 10 shohas for every Fudo.
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2012-03-08 20:17:54  
Quote:
99Masa > 99Amano > 95Masa > 90Masa > 95Amano > Tpbonus > 85Masa > 90Amano
I was just wondering what kind of mob would this generalization be for? I always assumed that 99 Amano > 99 Masamune if the accuracy was useful, something like Ig-Alima where 40 accuracy could be the difference between Pizza/Sushi and Meat at capped acc.
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-03-08 20:23:08  
Shouldn't 99 amano be top on anything accuracy is beneficial for, and on anything that you have pdif high enough to make 99kaiten usable? That seems way too generalized. For something like nyzul maybe, wouldn't 99 amano pull ahead? Lots of running around so unlikely that aftermath is fulltimed, also wouldn't kaiten pull ahead on the EP/DC mobs?
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-08 21:44:01  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Quote:
99Masa > 99Amano > 95Masa > 90Masa > 95Amano > Tpbonus > 85Masa > 90Amano
I was just wondering what kind of mob would this generalization be for? I always assumed that 99 Amano > 99 Masamune if the accuracy was useful, something like Ig-Alima where 40 accuracy could be the difference between Pizza/Sushi and Meat at capped acc.


Yes it can pull ahead if you are using a lot of the 40acc. The problme is SAM has less of an ACC problem compared to other 2hand DDs sitting on a 60+ % zanshin rate and the ability to sub WAR with no negative impact. There are definitely times Amano99>Masa99 but they would be an incredibly small fraction of the time.
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By Fupafighters 2012-03-08 22:14:45  
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
Shouldn't 99 amano be top on anything accuracy is beneficial for, and on anything that you have pdif high enough to make 99kaiten usable? That seems way too generalized. For something like nyzul maybe, wouldn't 99 amano pull ahead? Lots of running around so unlikely that aftermath is fulltimed, also wouldn't kaiten pull ahead on the EP/DC mobs?
Think your forgetting ws frequency is much more potent when you have 20 extra str on such a high modded shoha. Kaiten is useless. I would just assume that masa 99 would win. And fudo can do really good damage too on low defense mobs.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-03-08 22:18:34  
Fupafighters said: »
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
Shouldn't 99 amano be top on anything accuracy is beneficial for, and on anything that you have pdif high enough to make 99kaiten usable? That seems way too generalized. For something like nyzul maybe, wouldn't 99 amano pull ahead? Lots of running around so unlikely that aftermath is fulltimed, also wouldn't kaiten pull ahead on the EP/DC mobs?
Think your forgetting ws frequency is much more potent when you have 20 extra str on such a high modded shoha. Kaiten is useless. I would just assume that masa 99 would win. And fudo can do really good damage too on low defense mobs.
Huh?

And Kaiten is far from useless. It's better than Fudo now with the innate 40% damage bonus on Amano 99.

At a guess, I'd say Masa 99 vs Amano 99 plays out more like this:

-Amano wins when acc matters
-Masa wins when acc doesn't matter, but pDIF is sufficiently low to justify using Shoha
-Amano wins when pDIF is high enough to exploit Kaiten
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By Fupafighters 2012-03-08 22:28:24  
And there are rare situations where that occurs from my experience so far. I really never see an issue with acc, even on higher tier VW. And kaiten doesn't benefit from stuff like sekkanoki at 200% with +2 hands, or hagakure, or any extra TP. That's the part that makes me feel like kaiten isn't worth it. Being a career sam, I would still like a 99 amano, but I just don't see it being more potent than a 99 masamune. Just my opinion, judge me all you want.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-08 22:46:07  
If you don't have acc issues on T6, you're full of ***, especially since you don't use bards, let alone Durblahblah ones.
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By Fupafighters 2012-03-08 23:01:00  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
If you don't have acc issues on T6, you're full of ***, especially since you don't use bards, let alone Durblahblah ones.
Ocythoe and ig are the only 2 that I have got to have gone sam on, and I did just fine lol. Seemed like i was hitting a tier 3. And yes I do use bards...your just getting annoiying. READ WHAT I SAID. I SAID ON BOTOLUS REX its generally NOT NEEDED. Then I went on to say that yes, yes indeed bard is nice for any other VWNM...jebus... is 58 acc in my ws build, stalwarts and aggressor really not enough acc?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-08 23:06:48  
For WS? Who cares what acc you have on SAM?

Since Ig-Alima is level 120, level correction alone *** you on accuracy, and if T3s are 110 like some speculate, that's 40 more accuracy alone you'd need to cap without even factoring in his already naturally higher evasion.
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By Fupafighters 2012-03-08 23:07:49  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
For WS? Who cares what acc you have on SAM?

Since Ig-Alima is level 20, level correction alone *** you on accuracy, and if T3s are 110 like some speculate, that's 40 more accuracy alone you'd need to cap without even factoring in his already naturally higher evasion.
K. Every player sucks except for you. Cool story.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-08 23:09:11  
Fupafighters said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
For WS? Who cares what acc you have on SAM?

Since Ig-Alima is level 20, level correction alone *** you on accuracy, and if T3s are 110 like some speculate, that's 40 more accuracy alone you'd need to cap without even factoring in his already naturally higher evasion.
K. Every player sucks except for you. Cool story.
Finally, someone gets it.
 Phoenix.Syto
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By Phoenix.Syto 2012-03-09 01:03:56  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Fupafighters said: »
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
Shouldn't 99 amano be top on anything accuracy is beneficial for, and on anything that you have pdif high enough to make 99kaiten usable? That seems way too generalized. For something like nyzul maybe, wouldn't 99 amano pull ahead? Lots of running around so unlikely that aftermath is fulltimed, also wouldn't kaiten pull ahead on the EP/DC mobs?
Think your forgetting ws frequency is much more potent when you have 20 extra str on such a high modded shoha. Kaiten is useless. I would just assume that masa 99 would win. And fudo can do really good damage too on low defense mobs.
Huh?

And Kaiten is far from useless. It's better than Fudo now with the innate 40% damage bonus on Amano 99.

At a guess, I'd say Masa 99 vs Amano 99 plays out more like this:

-Amano wins when acc matters
-Masa wins when acc doesn't matter, but pDIF is sufficiently low to justify using Shoha
-Amano wins when pDIF is high enough to exploit Kaiten

^ /thread as well as Taint's calculations/sources were very well done. ^_*)y
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 Ragnarok.Daffel
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By Ragnarok.Daffel 2012-03-09 03:20:49  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Huh?

And Kaiten is far from useless. It's better than Fudo now with the innate 40% damage bonus on Amano 99.

At a guess, I'd say Masa 99 vs Amano 99 plays out more like this:

-Amano wins when acc matters
-Masa wins when acc doesn't matter, but pDIF is sufficiently low to justify using Shoha
-Amano wins when pDIF is high enough to exploit Kaiten

While these are what I believed, the only issue I feel might have been missed is tp overflow. The bold statement is very correct at exactly 100%tp. The second it goes over that (overflow, moonshade, hagakure etc)it starts to favour Masa making it a less convincing win for amano. Not sure if it's been mathed out but this is why I believed 99 masa > 99 amano.

Not trying to put amano down as kaiten has always been a fantasic WS(and anyone who hints at it being usless is just wrong) but by not being a WS that increases damage with TP has made it suffer in more recent updates.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
For WS? Who cares what acc you have on SAM?

Since Ig-Alima is level 120, level correction alone *** you on accuracy, and if T3s are 110 like some speculate, that's 40 more accuracy alone you'd need to cap without even factoring in his already naturally higher evasion.

This 1000x if you have masa over amano carry some sushi around for T6's

Edit: It's right at the top and I missed it ._. can ignore all this except the sushi bit