RDM Delve Stunning

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Red Mage » RDM Delve stunning
RDM Delve stunning
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 Sylph.Murex
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By Sylph.Murex 2013-11-26 09:06:18  
I thought I saw something about someone asking if rdm could be used for stunning in delve or something idk but I like being at the top of the most viewed after I make post's so... I'll make a post!

I was just messing around with my fast cast gear:

ItemSet 316033

With Haste & double March from a gimply skilled BRD my stuns have a 12 second recast.

I don't have a recast magian staff and i'm at the Fast Cast cap so i'm not sure if it would even do anything(Does -recast add on top of Fast Cast's recast reduction or does the recast cap at 40%?).

Anyways the question would be has anyone used RDM for stunning in Delve or would the lack of MACC due to how much Fast Cast gear we need to use to cap cause problems with resists?

I would also like to know if there would be a better gear set to use that can reduce recast any further while capping Fast Cast(fitting in Haste) or increase my MACC while staying at the Fast Cast cap.
 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-11-26 09:45:15  
Only thing stood out to me straight away because I own them is the Fea's slops you're better off using orvail.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 09:52:33  
have you tried stunning in delve? rdm used to have serious macc issues due to it's low dark skill. you'd be locked into an iLVL weapon if it's even viable.
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By Antisense 2013-11-26 13:38:16  
Magian recast reduction is applied to the fast cast term for recast reduction and is effectively Fast Cast +28 (Refer to this for reference on how to calculate final recast value accounting for fast cast and haste.) However I don't know if the Magian staff effect ignores the putative fast cast recast reduction cap (40%).

RDM wouldn't be lacking magic accuracy compared to SCH (or BLM) as item level weapon with the appropriate magic accuracy skill (Baqil Staff, or Bura or ilevel R/M/E) can cover RDM's dark magic deficit relative to SCH/BLM and thus is pretty much mandatory for RDM stunning.

Haste generally is more efficient at reducing recast than fast cast, in part because haste has a higher recast reduction cap (68.75%; you should be getting magic haste) as opposed to whatever the maximum recast reduction from fast cast is. So haste should generally be prioritized over fast cast for reducing spell recast time (no need to maintain fast cast cap, whatever it is).

For example, the OP's set has Fast Cast +80 (with RDM Fast Cast trait) and only 11% gear haste. Including Haste spell (150/1024) and March +3 x2 (256/1024), effective recast reduction is about (1 - 80/2/100)*(1 - (110 + 150 + 256)/1024)*100% = 29.8% of the base recast.

If instead Bokwus Gloves (Haste +3%), Bokwus Slops (Haste +4%), Bokwus Boots (Haste +3%), and Hedera Cotehardie (Haste +5%) replace Gendewitha Gages, Fea Slops, Chelona Boots+1, and AF2+2 body, respectively, the the loss of Fast Cast +29 is more than compensated for by additional haste: (1 - (80 - 29)/2/100)*(1 - (256 + 150 + 256)/1024) = 26.3% of base recast (approximately).

Difference doesn't really matter for dual stunning but would be of concern for solo stunning.
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 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 13:47:30  
You'll need a stun partner, 12 second recast isn't enough.
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 Ragnarok.Presidentobama
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By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-11-26 13:49:49  
Never send an outdated rdm to do a job a sch can do 10x beeter and need no partner. Rdm is a fail job period. Hence they are the biggest crybabies to se for changes from ja to spells to magic and gear!
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 13:53:57  
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »
Never send an outdated rdm to do a job a sch can do 10x beeter and need no partner. Rdm is a fail job period. Hence they are the biggest crybabies to se for changes from ja to spells to magic and gear!

Lots of jobs are irrelevant depending on content, but RDM has legitimately got the shaft repeatedly. The changes in Macc post-delve are a big slap in the face. There was a point in the early days of delve when RDM was mandatory for just about everything. So a lot of retired RDM's pulled it out and fell in love with the job all over again. Then iLVL made Macc nearly meaningless and RDM was back in the closet. I'd hardly call that crybaby.
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By Quetzacoatl 2013-11-26 14:08:46  
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »
Never send an outdated rdm to do a job a sch can do 10x beeter and need no partner. Rdm is a fail job period. Hence they are the biggest crybabies to se for changes from ja to spells to magic and gear!

We still use RDM for Refresh/Haste on SCHs and GEOs, Silence on Tojil, Poison/Dia/Addle on Mastop, occasional Chainspell stun on T.Scorpion (when BLU's Absolute Terror wears off), Dispel for everything needing dispelled when BRDs are occupied, and the whole slew of Debuffs for the Uragnite.

In fact, I Magic Bursted a Paralyze2 on Tojil last night. Try Harder.
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 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 14:26:37  
Err, maybe it's just me (and it probably is because I haven't seen anyone else say this), but things just seem to go smoother and safer when a RDM is around.

The fact is, while a SCH or some other mage can do most of the same things a RDM does, you typically don't bring a SCH to do what RDMs do. SCHs are used for two things: stunning and regen5 against weak things. Sure, you can use SCH/RDM to main cure (for some reason), but you wouldn't want your SCH healer to be responsible for keeping debuffs on it; nor would you want to allocate your SCH healer to haste both your DDs and a stunning SCH.

Well then, you could always bring a SCH/RDM for healing and a different SCH/RDM for all these other things...but why would you do that over bringing a RDM to do those things? You gain nothing and you lose a higher tier dia, gravity2 and stronger slow/paralyze, as well as refresh2 for non-SCH mages.

On paper, SCH does outclass RDM by a noticeable margin 1v1, but in practice, a WHM + RDM or SCH + RDM would be better than a WHM + SCH or SCH + SCH.
 Siren.Taruina
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By Siren.Taruina 2013-11-26 14:26:42  
Quetzacoatl said: »
We still use RDM for Refresh/Haste on SCHs and GEOs, Silence on Tojil, Poison/Dia/Addle on Mastop, occasional Chainspell stun on T.Scorpion (when BLU's Absolute Terror wears off), Dispel for everything needing dispelled when BRDs are occupied, and the whole slew of Debuffs for the Uragnite.

Even though Presidentobama was brass in his delivery (and is generally a dumbass), it still has merit. RDM is superfluous to all of these fights. You can easily bring any other support job or mage in that final spot.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-26 14:28:34  
Or you can just bring nothing in place of a RDM.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 14:36:19  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Or you can just bring nothing in place of a RDM.

This...

You wouldn't bring SCH in place of RDM, you just wouldn't bring anything for that role because you don't need it. Sure, it helps to have a RDM around, but it's rarely necessary.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 14:42:26  
Well haste and songs aren't necessary either, but they're also nice to have.
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2013-11-26 14:45:34  
Who in this thread is saying RDM is necessary? If you have an extra slot it doesn't hurt to put one in if its available to you.
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 Bahamut.Zangada
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By Bahamut.Zangada 2013-11-26 14:52:17  
Please im the main RDM in my ls and I do everything, cure, haste, refresh, buff, debuff, css and and anything I have to. As for as stun goes yes its bad for RDM because it requires u to lose composure which makes buffing suck more due to it lasting shorter.
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By Quetzacoatl 2013-11-26 15:01:08  
Siren.Taruina said: »
Quetzacoatl said: »
We still use RDM for Refresh/Haste on SCHs and GEOs, Silence on Tojil, Poison/Dia/Addle on Mastop, occasional Chainspell stun on T.Scorpion (when BLU's Absolute Terror wears off), Dispel for everything needing dispelled when BRDs are occupied, and the whole slew of Debuffs for the Uragnite.

Even though Presidentobama was brass in his delivery (and is generally a dumbass), it still has merit. RDM is superfluous to all of these fights. You can easily bring any other support job or mage in that final spot.
That is true, I'm just saying it's something to think about when you either don't have an extra COR or BRD to take care of those other duties.

Bahamut.Zangada said: »
Please im the main RDM in my ls and I do everything, cure, haste, refresh, buff, debuff, css and and anything I have to. As for as stun goes yes its bad for RDM because it requires u to lose composure which makes buffing suck more due to it lasting shorter.

I really only use Composure on myself, with Spontaniety allowing me to use the next refresh or haste on the next party member. I like to use the Addons plugin to check on my party's buffs to see which ones are wearing soon, and I jump right onto rebuffing before or just after they wear off.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2013-11-26 15:39:22  
No wonder I was doing all the paralyzing on GEO Quetz! you don't even think it's a thing !
 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 16:01:38  
This is kinda a stupid argument, if the slot isn't being filled at all take a rdm if there is one available. Rdm can refresh II, can cure, can land enfeeble's better than other jobs and make them last much longer. (Not to mention potency) Highest possible enhance magic as well so a rdm/sch can literally stand in AoE giving DD phalanx and stoneskin, or whatever else buffs you would like. Can't forget dia 3, paralyze II, Slow II, Blind II. I have seen rdm's cast one enfeeble and it last the entire fight. i.e. silence on NM eft in morimor, blind on peiste etc.

There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.
Am I saying you MUST take a rdm at all times? No but if you are low manning a run a rdm will make it a lot easier. Can't tell you how many times I have heard whm's complain of lack of mp because fights are taking too long and costing mages too much mp, in which I have seen those very fights drastically reduced in time when we had a rdm there to enfeeble nm's. Imagine how much mp is saved when a mob is silenced the whole fight, or para is killing their attack rounds, throw in some slow and blind to keep them from hitting the DD so much. Massive boost to DD in ally. Again throw on a dia 3 and watch how fast mobs drop now.

However rdm stunning i don't see very practical. rdm dark magic pretty low so rdm would get resisted fairly quickly.
 Cerberus.Spirachub
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By Cerberus.Spirachub 2013-11-26 16:19:27  
Quote:
There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.

The problem is the vacant slot is always a replacement of another job that we already bring into delve. Of course you can win with a rdm, of course they have some sort of use. But I don`t see how I`d favour a rdm over any other job that we already typically bring into delve.

Of course a higher level enfeebling spell and lesser resist is nice, but with the macc gear even my whm can comfortably land debuffs, it`s make it a bit harder to justify giving rdm a spot over say, a geo or a bard which can give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebling or 3 more ticks of refresh.

Though I`ve seen people shout for a rdm lately to replace a sch in a 2 man stunning setup, purely because schs takes hours to find XD
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2013-11-26 16:55:29  
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »
Quote:
There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.

The problem is the vacant slot is always a replacement of another job that we already bring into delve. Of course you can win with a rdm, of course they have some sort of use. But I don`t see how I`d favour a rdm over any other job that we already typically bring into delve.

Of course a higher level enfeebling spell and lesser resist is nice, but with the macc gear even my whm can comfortably land debuffs, it`s make it a bit harder to justify giving rdm a spot over say, a geo or a bard which can give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebling or 3 more ticks of refresh.

Though I`ve seen people shout for a rdm lately to replace a sch in a 2 man stunning setup, purely because schs takes hours to find XD

Unless I offer to SCH spira....

I would say if you bothered to make a Serious stun set for RDM you should probably ust have made it for SCH and it would have been easier / faster for you.

If RDM was given more Dark Skil, and Apajama's was viable I wouldn't mind taking a RDM, could be fun
 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 17:09:44  
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »
Quote:
There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.

The problem is the vacant slot is always a replacement of another job that we already bring into delve. Of course you can win with a rdm, of course they have some sort of use. But I don`t see how I`d favour a rdm over any other job that we already typically bring into delve.

Of course a higher level enfeebling spell and lesser resist is nice, but with the macc gear even my whm can comfortably land debuffs, it`s make it a bit harder to justify giving rdm a spot over say, a geo or a bard which can give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebling or 3 more ticks of refresh.

Though I`ve seen people shout for a rdm lately to replace a sch in a 2 man stunning setup, purely because schs takes hours to find XD


Again with as the delve bosses are beginning to be beaten with less and less people in ally, (my ls low man's all the time) you tend to have vacant slots. Making a rdm more needed than full ally set ups. Rdm's make fights easier, period. Whm won't have the potency of a rdm nor the length in which a rdm enfeeble will land a spell. A whm doesn't have refresh II, and sure as hell doesn't have a near the mp pool of a rdm. You missed the point of my statement earlier with thinking that you always have the spots filled with other jobs. That isn't true, if that were the case 100% of the time people wouldn't be shouting all the time for specific jobs. We aren't here to state rdm is manditory to take. We are saying rdm has much more use than people give it credit for, and it fills a lot of gaps when you don't have the "proper" set-up. (I use quotes on that because I have seen more groups fail without a rdm than with a rdm) Can a geo refresh? yes, can a geo lower acc? yes. Can a sch stun? yes, can a sch land silence? yes, can a cor or brd haste? yes. Can a whm para? yes. Can a whm cure? yes. Can any of those jobs do all of that and what they are there to do on top of that? No... Not gonna see a stun sch spamming enfeebles while curing and stunning and lowering eva/acc, Not gonna see a cor or brd haste and cure and sure as hell not stun, not gonna see whm enfeeble, cure, haste and lower eva. However a rdm can do all of that. I have also seen an ally wipe to Tojil and the rdm stood there and kite/tanked it while everyone in ally recovered and got the win.

Rdm has much more use in delve than people think, and certainly more use than blu, which I have been seeing people show up to lately for spells. I have seen people take dnc, seen rng's go to tojil and shark, seen blm in there for "crowd control." Yet for some reason people can't get it through their head that rdm does help. There are empty slots now days, more and more often you will see empty slots? Why not take a decent rdm that knows wtf they are doing to make everything 10x easier?

You also say "give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebleing or 3 more ticks of refresh." First off HQ enfeebling is massive, secondly refresh II gives 6 ticks refresh, 7 with afv3+2 pants, has the ability to cure, more so than geo or brd. If rdm is /sch that is pt phalanx, pt stoneskin, pt en-spell. If /blm can stun if sch timer is down. Also "lesser resist" really isn't the word, if a rdm is getting resisted in delve, then you need a new rdm.

AGAIN!!!! I am not saying ditch a needed job for a rdm, I am saying if you have the vacant slot, which happens. Take a rdm, it will make things way easier.
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By Sylph.Murex 2013-11-26 17:13:07  
I posted this and fell asleep... Just woke up o.o anyways I have completely solo stunned fracture wins on sch and was just wondering if maybe RDM with the MACC Skill+ we get now would be useable only difference between sch and rdm that I see is they get a big 65% Fast Cast piece (during weather) in one slot (AF2+2 Feet) and can stack macc in many other slots
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 17:20:28  
Sylph.Murex said: »
I posted this and fell asleep... Just woke up o.o anyways I have completely solo stunned fracture wins on sch and was just wondering if maybe RDM with the MACC Skill+ we get now would be useable only difference between sch and rdm that I see is they get a big 65% Fast Cast piece (during weather) in one slot (AF2+2 Feet) and can stack macc in many other slots


Rdm can max fast cast in a preset, I wouldn't worry about that. As for the m. acc I am pretty certain that rdm can land now with baqil staff throughout a run without issues as long as DD doesn't suck and take too long to kill before rdm hits stun wall.
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By Sylph.Murex 2013-11-26 17:23:15  
Fast Cast is not for the precast it's for the recast so it would need to be on during the spell going off
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2013-11-26 17:27:25  
Odin.Celoria said: »
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »
Quote:
There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.

The problem is the vacant slot is always a replacement of another job that we already bring into delve. Of course you can win with a rdm, of course they have some sort of use. But I don`t see how I`d favour a rdm over any other job that we already typically bring into delve.

Of course a higher level enfeebling spell and lesser resist is nice, but with the macc gear even my whm can comfortably land debuffs, it`s make it a bit harder to justify giving rdm a spot over say, a geo or a bard which can give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebling or 3 more ticks of refresh.

Though I`ve seen people shout for a rdm lately to replace a sch in a 2 man stunning setup, purely because schs takes hours to find XD


Again with as the delve bosses are beginning to be beaten with less and less people in ally, (my ls low man's all the time) you tend to have vacant slots. Making a rdm more needed than full ally set ups. Rdm's make fights easier, period. Whm won't have the potency of a rdm nor the length in which a rdm enfeeble will land a spell. A whm doesn't have refresh II, and sure as hell doesn't have a near the mp pool of a rdm. You missed the point of my statement earlier with thinking that you always have the spots filled with other jobs. That isn't true, if that were the case 100% of the time people wouldn't be shouting all the time for specific jobs. We aren't here to state rdm is manditory to take. We are saying rdm has much more use than people give it credit for, and it fills a lot of gaps when you don't have the "proper" set-up. (I use quotes on that because I have seen more groups fail without a rdm than with a rdm) Can a geo refresh? yes, can a geo lower acc? yes. Can a sch stun? yes, can a sch land silence? yes, can a cor or brd haste? yes. Can a whm para? yes. Can a whm cure? yes. Can any of those jobs do all of that and what they are there to do on top of that? No... Not gonna see a stun sch spamming enfeebles while curing and stunning and lowering eva/acc, Not gonna see a cor or brd haste and cure and sure as hell not stun, not gonna see whm enfeeble, cure, haste and lower eva. However a rdm can do all of that. I have also seen an ally wipe to Tojil and the rdm stood there and kite/tanked it while everyone in ally recovered and got the win.

Rdm has much more use in delve than people think, and certainly more use than blu, which I have been seeing people show up to lately for spells. I have seen people take dnc, seen rng's go to tojil and shark, seen blm in there for "crowd control." Yet for some reason people can't get it through their head that rdm does help. There are empty slots now days, more and more often you will see empty slots? Why not take a decent rdm that knows wtf they are doing to make everything 10x easier?

You also say "give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebleing or 3 more ticks of refresh." First off HQ enfeebling is massive, secondly refresh II gives 6 ticks refresh, 7 with afv3+2 pants, has the ability to cure, more so than geo or brd. If rdm is /sch that is pt phalanx, pt stoneskin, pt en-spell. If /blm can stun if sch timer is down. Also "lesser resist" really isn't the word, if a rdm is getting resisted in delve, then you need a new rdm.

AGAIN!!!! I am not saying ditch a needed job for a rdm, I am saying if you have the vacant slot, which happens. Take a rdm, it will make things way easier.

RDM enfeebles do alot, well Gravity II would be nice (assuming the Evasion - affects Monsters evasion still, not looked into this too much).

RDM glory days were back when RDM was considered a main cure, it is not considered this any more, mainly due to the fact that Cure skin from WHM is so massively useful, and when content gained most of it's TP gain from hitting your players, current content gains more TP from the fact its being zerged by 6~7 people meaning a Slow II won't do wonders to reduce the mobs DPS output onto your pt.

And, More useful than BLU? You would need to explain what a RDM can do thats more useful than a BLU and in what scenario, in Morimar, I would agree but that zone is far from hard.

Blind 2 on the pieste? Blind is not about potency on him, its about duration.

Dia 3, now this seems like the big spell really for that Defence down, and Gravity 2 (as mentioned above) in Ceizak would obviously be a welcome addition.

The issue you're raising is that "RDM can have a role in Delve" Yes it can, buts it a role that isn't required to be filled to allow you to win with minimal effort, so it's not going to be a job people will actively take, and considering most runs are PUG's they will likely be 18/18 with specific jobs to facilitate them getting a win.

You might be able to go while part of a linkshell, but on the back of this, if your ls only takes 10 people then they again don't need a rdm Yes RDm makes some thing's easier, but why over complicate a simple strat by adding new jobs to it that don't enable / required for the win.

Arguement regarding if you have an empty slot

Using this logic I may as well take a PUP and let them AFK.
An Empty slot simply allows anything to go, again RDM would not be the 1st choice, unless it offered balance to the party, like..... a make shift PLD perhaps?

When everyone wiped the rdm held the boss

Where was the PLD when everyone got owned hard, if a RDM is out tanking a PLD in todays content, replace the PLD.


EDIT***
Not gunna see a whm para/slow/cure/stun/haste

I fil to see how a RDM main curing a pt, without curaga 3 or cure skin, is oging to have time to do anything else, considering WHM cure cast time is capped anyway now at 20% with reasonably easy to obatin gear, you will NEVER be able to out cure a WHM, until you can you wont be able to land your enfeebles and focus stunning a NM.
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By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-26 17:39:52  
RDM is a good job for those gimp DD only friends that you want to help out lol, dont need it but its a nice bonus.

As far as the OP goes for rdm stuns, stick haste in ammo(or fc), grip(or fc), hands(skirm), legs(bokwus), and feet(bokwus) slots and you should be able to get a good 1-2 sec less recast time. If a fight lasts long enough that you start to resist, well.. you have bigger problems.

At the end of the day, specially with shout groups, doesnt matter what job you bring to stun as long as the person stunning isnt a fail, which by now we are all too familiar with. ive personally stunned on rdm, drk, and sch with no issue.

Using ilvl weapons pretty much handles your macc issues.
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 17:50:09  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Odin.Celoria said: »
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »
Quote:
There is no reason in not taking a rdm if you have the vacant slot.

The problem is the vacant slot is always a replacement of another job that we already bring into delve. Of course you can win with a rdm, of course they have some sort of use. But I don`t see how I`d favour a rdm over any other job that we already typically bring into delve.

Of course a higher level enfeebling spell and lesser resist is nice, but with the macc gear even my whm can comfortably land debuffs, it`s make it a bit harder to justify giving rdm a spot over say, a geo or a bard which can give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebling or 3 more ticks of refresh.

Though I`ve seen people shout for a rdm lately to replace a sch in a 2 man stunning setup, purely because schs takes hours to find XD


Again with as the delve bosses are beginning to be beaten with less and less people in ally, (my ls low man's all the time) you tend to have vacant slots. Making a rdm more needed than full ally set ups. Rdm's make fights easier, period. Whm won't have the potency of a rdm nor the length in which a rdm enfeeble will land a spell. A whm doesn't have refresh II, and sure as hell doesn't have a near the mp pool of a rdm. You missed the point of my statement earlier with thinking that you always have the spots filled with other jobs. That isn't true, if that were the case 100% of the time people wouldn't be shouting all the time for specific jobs. We aren't here to state rdm is manditory to take. We are saying rdm has much more use than people give it credit for, and it fills a lot of gaps when you don't have the "proper" set-up. (I use quotes on that because I have seen more groups fail without a rdm than with a rdm) Can a geo refresh? yes, can a geo lower acc? yes. Can a sch stun? yes, can a sch land silence? yes, can a cor or brd haste? yes. Can a whm para? yes. Can a whm cure? yes. Can any of those jobs do all of that and what they are there to do on top of that? No... Not gonna see a stun sch spamming enfeebles while curing and stunning and lowering eva/acc, Not gonna see a cor or brd haste and cure and sure as hell not stun, not gonna see whm enfeeble, cure, haste and lower eva. However a rdm can do all of that. I have also seen an ally wipe to Tojil and the rdm stood there and kite/tanked it while everyone in ally recovered and got the win.

Rdm has much more use in delve than people think, and certainly more use than blu, which I have been seeing people show up to lately for spells. I have seen people take dnc, seen rng's go to tojil and shark, seen blm in there for "crowd control." Yet for some reason people can't get it through their head that rdm does help. There are empty slots now days, more and more often you will see empty slots? Why not take a decent rdm that knows wtf they are doing to make everything 10x easier?

You also say "give something a bit more distinct than HQ enfeebleing or 3 more ticks of refresh." First off HQ enfeebling is massive, secondly refresh II gives 6 ticks refresh, 7 with afv3+2 pants, has the ability to cure, more so than geo or brd. If rdm is /sch that is pt phalanx, pt stoneskin, pt en-spell. If /blm can stun if sch timer is down. Also "lesser resist" really isn't the word, if a rdm is getting resisted in delve, then you need a new rdm.

AGAIN!!!! I am not saying ditch a needed job for a rdm, I am saying if you have the vacant slot, which happens. Take a rdm, it will make things way easier.

RDM enfeebles do alot, well Gravity II would be nice (assuming the Evasion - affects Monsters evasion still, not looked into this too much).

RDM glory days were back when RDM was considered a main cure, it is not considered this any more, mainly due to the fact that Cure skin from WHM is so massively useful, and when content gained most of it's TP gain from hitting your players, current content gains more TP from the fact its being zerged by 6~7 people meaning a Slow II won't do wonders to reduce the mobs DPS output onto your pt.

And, More useful than BLU? You would need to explain what a RDM can do thats more useful than a BLU and in what scenario, in Morimar, I would agree but that zone is far from hard.

Blind 2 on the pieste? Blind is not about potency on him, its about duration.

Dia 3, now this seems like the big spell really for that Defence down, and Gravity 2 (as mentioned above) in Ceizak would obviously be a welcome addition.

The issue you're raising is that "RDM can have a role in Delve" Yes it can, buts it a role that isn't required to be filled to allow you to win with minimal effort, so it's not going to be a job people will actively take, and considering most runs are PUG's they will likely be 18/18 with specific jobs to facilitate them getting a win.

You might be able to go while part of a linkshell, but on the back of this, if your ls only takes 10 people then they again don't need a rdm Yes RDm makes some thing's easier, but why over complicate a simple strat by adding new jobs to it that don't enable / required for the win.

Arguement regarding if you have an empty slot

Using this logic I may as well take a PUP and let them AFK.
An Empty slot simply allows anything to go, again RDM would not be the 1st choice, unless it offered balance to the party, like..... a make shift PLD perhaps?

When everyone wiped the rdm held the boss

Where was the PLD when everyone got owned hard, if a RDM is out tanking a PLD in todays content, replace the PLD.


EDIT***
Not gunna see a whm para/slow/cure/stun/haste

I fil to see how a RDM main curing a pt, without curaga 3 or cure skin, is oging to have time to do anything else, considering WHM cure cast time is capped anyway now at 20% with reasonably easy to obatin gear, you will NEVER be able to out cure a WHM, until you can you wont be able to land your enfeebles and focus stunning a NM.

You are trying to say in max situations, i.e. max situation a whm can't be outcured, did I say that? No I did not. However a /sch can cure 4 a pt/ally.

Yes grav II does get -eva on mob. -40 i believe.

10 times more useful than a blu, lets see a blu do everything a rdm can. Can't heal pt/ally, can't keep up with a haste rotation, can't enfeeble like a rdm can. Oooh but blu can DD! Well with the spell buff now a rdm can throw nukes off, and deal some dmg, not to mention DoT really takes a toll on mobs. If you are gonna throw out the blu can DD role you are missing the point of the entire debate. Why take a blu if you can take a drk, mnk or sam? (because you have the slot and it is a viable option.)

You also missed when I said a rdm can land 1 single enfeeble and have it last the entire fight. Blind II potency helps with not getting DD's hit as much, making it easier for the mages to cure.

Dia 3, didn't seem like you left much argument there, so I will just say -15% def on mobs really tends to speed things up.

You say over complicate things by taking a rdm to a low man group? How does adding a useful jack of all/make fights easier job make things over complicated? Seems illogical of a statement.

"Arguement regarding if you have an empty slot. Using this logic I may as well take a PUP and let them AFK." Again no logic, so instead of taking someone that will be doing something useful and lighten the load you would rather take someone to afk and not do anything? Sounds brilliant, Lets just take 17 people to go afk in there then!

Where was the pld? Dead, pt wiped, pld went to tank got hit with lahar, got stun hit then next hit killed pld. Not hard to see a pld die, I don't know why people think pld can avoid all deaths. Rdm took over tanking and did so without an issue while the ally recovered. What can tojil do to a tanking rdm? Cast a spell? Scary.... Hit a Stoneskin -pdt phalanx rdm for a few dmg? Thank God for fast cast, rdm is fine again. Chase a movespeed +, enfeebling conscience thinking person around to attempt to kill them? Silence, Dia III, Para II, Slow II, Addle, Bind, Posion, Blind. Sound like that rdm is in dire need of help to stay alive. Seen rdm's tank peiste when an ally wipes cause sch don't know how to cast stun on calcifying mist. Kill speed climbs on kurma with dia III. Sleep works on nm's in delve, works as a back up stun for rdm when timers are down. (Break as well if mobs aren't completely immune)

So your argument about take a blu, (when they can't DD like a mnk, drk, or sam, they can't enfeeble like a rdm, can't cure a pt/ally for crap) kinda shot. Or lets take a pup to afk! Yet you don't want to take a rdm....
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 17:50:51  
Quote:
You might be able to go while part of a linkshell, but on the back of this, if your ls only takes 10 people then they again don't need a rdm Yes RDm makes some thing's easier, but why over complicate a simple strat by adding new jobs to it that don't enable / required for the win.

You have an interesting group if you think having a RDM would complicate whatever strat you use. If anything, RDM would simplify your strat. These days, a RDM's primary role is simply to lessen the burden of other jobs.

Your stunning SCH doesn't need to be concerned about blinding. Your WHM doesn't need to be concerned about hasting the stunner. No one needs to be concerned about any type of enfeeble. And so forth.

And Gravity2 is -40 evasion.


And Celoria, I think you need to calm down and take a breather. Some of your claims are pretty outrageous. Blind2 isn't going to do anything to your melee's evasion rate.
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 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 18:06:38  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Quote:
You might be able to go while part of a linkshell, but on the back of this, if your ls only takes 10 people then they again don't need a rdm Yes RDm makes some thing's easier, but why over complicate a simple strat by adding new jobs to it that don't enable / required for the win.

You have an interesting group if you think having a RDM would complicate whatever strat you use. If anything, RDM would simplify your strat. These days, a RDM's primary role is simply to lessen the burden of other jobs.

Your stunning SCH doesn't need to be concerned about blinding. Your WHM doesn't need to be concerned about hasting the stunner. No one needs to be concerned about any type of enfeeble. And so forth.

And Gravity2 is -40 evasion.


And Celoria, I think you need to calm down and take a breather. Some of your claims are pretty outrageous. Blind2 isn't going to do anything to your melee's evasion rate.

Far more calm than you think. And yes, blind II does help.

Blinds an enemy, lowers its accuracy.
Each additional merit increases blind effect by 1 and Magic Accuracy by 2.
Accuracy down is calculated with the formula (Caster_INT - Target_MND + 100) / 4, and has a lower floor of -15, and a cap of -30. By rearranging the equation, we obtain the INT necessary to reach cap. (Caster_INT = Target_MND +20). Therefore the caster's INT must be 20 points greater than the target's in order to cap at -30.

vs blind 1
Accuracy down is calculated with the formula (Caster_INT - Target_MND + 60) / 4, and has a lower floor of -5, and a cap of -20.
By rearranging the equation, we obtain the INT necessary to reach cap. (Caster_INT = Target_MND +20). Therefore the caster's INT must be 20 points greater than the target's in order to cap at -20.

So yes there is a gain with blind 2, even if a little you are getting a gain.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 18:07:27  
No. No it doesn't. You're embarrassing yourself. You should stop.
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