Wyverns Love Trust Npcs More Than Their Masters...

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Wyverns love trust npcs more than their masters...
Wyverns love trust npcs more than their masters...
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 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-01 13:36:18  
This has been going on since they allowed trusts to be targeted by Healing Breath and I know many of you have experienced and have quite possibly been killed by it. Wyverns seem to always prioritize trusts over their masters when using Healing Breath.

When a big AOE hits my trust party it is basically a death sentence if it knocks all of us into orange or red, since I have to heal EVERY trust to yellow before I can heal myself. I've submitted this is the In-Game Bugs section of SE's Official FFXI forum twice now. The first time they accepted it and eventually moved my thread to the "resolved" folder, even though the problem still exists. I re-submitted it a month and a half ago and it's still hasn't even been accepted as a bug. This gets me killed regularly when using trusts for anything.

I don't think I can re-submit the bug since SE will probably move it to the duplicate bugs section of the forum. I guess I was wondering if this is causing any of you as much grief as it's causing me. If so maybe we could get more people reporting this as a bug so SE will finally notice and change the minimal code needed to fix the issue.

I apologize for the length of this post. Thanks for your time.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-07-01 13:40:29  
It's because you Dragoons have been treating them like ***all these years.

Letting them take the hits, forcing them to be either a subpar healer or DD, never letting them go out to play, always getting rid of them when you use your 1hr, and then demand that they be better or you are going to trade them for a sheep.
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-01 13:49:35  
As a purely drg/mage I never use Spirit Surge because I can't afford to lose my wyvern.

Subpar healer!? Show me another mage that can heal for 1300+ for 5 MP.

All joking aside, this bug really needs to be fixed. I hope the DRG community jumps on this (pun intended).
 Fenrir.Squintik
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By Fenrir.Squintik 2014-07-01 15:53:21  
I could be wrong, but I think wyverns prioritize healing the target with with the lowest % of HP. Since Trusts are typically squishier than an iLevel player, they'll usually take more damage and be demanding your wyvern's attention more often.

The only way I can see this being fixed is if SE changes wyvern AI to something along the lines of PUP automaton AI, in which regardless of who has taken the most damage, the automaton will always prioritize the master above all other party members.
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 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-01 16:23:51  
What you're saying makes sense for Healing Breath targets other than the wyvern's owner, but outside of this trust debacle, the dragoon always gets the priority heal if more than one party member has gone under the trigger HP percentage.

I do think the PUP automaton AI would be appropriate for a wyvern, though PUPs may be plagued with this same problem with trust npcs. I honestly don't know since I don't really play PUP. If you are a PUP have you seen your automaton heal a trust npc intead of you when you were in dire need of it?
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By Ophannus 2014-07-01 19:55:35  
In my experience, when you and the rest of your party are low on hp, wyvern still prioritizes others with lower hp%. I've been in orange HP and seen my wyvern spend its 2.2k deep breathing on a monk that just unweakened
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 Ragnarok.Bleublood
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By Ragnarok.Bleublood 2014-07-01 20:02:40  
Siren.Kentai said: »
What you're saying makes sense for Healing Breath targets other than the wyvern's owner, but outside of this trust debacle, the dragoon always gets the priority heal if more than one party member has gone under the trigger HP percentage.

I do think the PUP automaton AI would be appropriate for a wyvern, though PUPs may be plagued with this same problem with trust npcs. I honestly don't know since I don't really play PUP. If you are a PUP have you seen your automaton heal a trust npc intead of you when you were in dire need of it?

I don't anything to add but your name is Hentai with a K
 Odin.Moondaddy
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By Odin.Moondaddy 2014-07-01 20:53:08  
healing breath will always target party member with lowest hp, its not a bug game has always been like this
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 Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2014-07-01 21:26:14  
Odin.Moondaddy said: »
healing breath will always target party member with lowest hp, its not a bug game has always been like this

This.
 Ragnarok.Eriina
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By Ragnarok.Eriina 2014-07-01 21:53:00  
I just stooped using trust as DRG/Mage altogether. While it would be neat to have songs or a higher teir of pro-shell, they really do more harm than good. Even if trusts were prioritized differently, I can't think of anything that I could tank with their help that I can tank already.

Only fun use I found for trusts was doing solo DRG/Sam while waiting for the Ra'Kaznar colonize reive to respawn when it was first released. I just depended on trusts for healing nearly 100% and went nuts.
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 17:32:54  
Lakshmi.Aelius said: »
Odin.Moondaddy said: »
healing breath will always target party member with lowest hp, its not a bug game has always been like this

This.

Incorrect. If the Dragoon is below the HP threshold as well as other party members, the dragoon is always prioritized. If the dragoon is out of range for the Healing Breath the wyvern will keep trying and failing to heal the dragoon while other party members die. The wiki page, edited by user JapanHasRice that I checked this morning describes Healing Breath behavior the best... but hilariously it is now appearing blank in my browser. I was able to view it from my smart phone and this is the direct quote:

"If multiple party members are below the HP% required for Healing Breath to be triggered and within the wyvern's range of perception, the Dragoon will always be the wyvern's first priority for Healing Breath. If the master is over the mark, then the next person in the party list (from the Dragoon's list) will be cured, regardless of whoever may have lower HP."

source: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Healing_Breath

It has been this way since I soloed and duoed the job with another drg from 1-75 in 2005. Dragoon has been my main job ever since.

Now that we've put that to rest... the problem is that the trust npcs break this former rule and always have first priority over the dragoon, which can easily get the dragoon killed, since he or she has to heal every trust character to above the HP% before he or she can receive a Healing Breath. It needs to be fixed. It is a bug.
 Siren.Inuyushi
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By Siren.Inuyushi 2014-07-02 17:58:00  
Sounds like to me the issue lies in that the Dragoon is prioritized over other PC players and trusts are viewed as the Dragoon itself as you summoned them. Like you said, just a bug where the source code is viewing the trusts as an extension of the PC player that summoned them. Just keep nagging SE and by the time summoner's get Atomos, it'll get fixed.
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 Cerberus.Balloon
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By Cerberus.Balloon 2014-07-02 18:00:14  
Siren.Kentai said: »
What you're saying makes sense for Healing Breath targets other than the wyvern's owner, but outside of this trust debacle, the dragoon always gets the priority heal if more than one party member has gone under the trigger HP percentage.

I do think the PUP automaton AI would be appropriate for a wyvern, though PUPs may be plagued with this same problem with trust npcs. I honestly don't know since I don't really play PUP. If you are a PUP have you seen your automaton heal a trust npc instead of you when you were in dire need of it?

Oh god, someone ENVYING automaton AI? They do focus on you, though, even with trusts. Their Healing order is something like

You > itself > > > Others depending on hpp. Regen would be based on whoever had hate. I haven't noticed anything strange with this, but they're set to heal at set hp%s, depending on light maneuvers
 Bahamut.Dannyl
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By Bahamut.Dannyl 2014-07-02 18:02:10  
SE response: Working as intended
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 18:03:14  
Cerberus.Balloon said: »
Siren.Kentai said: »
What you're saying makes sense for Healing Breath targets other than the wyvern's owner, but outside of this trust debacle, the dragoon always gets the priority heal if more than one party member has gone under the trigger HP percentage.

I do think the PUP automaton AI would be appropriate for a wyvern, though PUPs may be plagued with this same problem with trust npcs. I honestly don't know since I don't really play PUP. If you are a PUP have you seen your automaton heal a trust npc instead of you when you were in dire need of it?

Oh god, someone ENVYING automaton AI? They do focus on you, though, even with trusts. Their Healing order is something like

You > itself > > > Others depending on hpp. Regen would be based on whoever had hate. I haven't noticed anything strange with this, but they're set to heal at set hp%s, depending on light maneuvers

lol that would be a step ahead for Dragoon wyverns now. I've lost count at how many times I've died because my wyvern has a crush on my trusts and refuses to heal me until they're taken care of.
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By Shiva.Gib 2014-07-02 18:08:28  
Siren.Kentai said: »
Cerberus.Balloon said: »
Siren.Kentai said: »
What you're saying makes sense for Healing Breath targets other than the wyvern's owner, but outside of this trust debacle, the dragoon always gets the priority heal if more than one party member has gone under the trigger HP percentage.

I do think the PUP automaton AI would be appropriate for a wyvern, though PUPs may be plagued with this same problem with trust npcs. I honestly don't know since I don't really play PUP. If you are a PUP have you seen your automaton heal a trust npc instead of you when you were in dire need of it?

Oh god, someone ENVYING automaton AI? They do focus on you, though, even with trusts. Their Healing order is something like

You > itself > > > Others depending on hpp. Regen would be based on whoever had hate. I haven't noticed anything strange with this, but they're set to heal at set hp%s, depending on light maneuvers

lol that would be a step ahead for Dragoon wyverns now. I've lost count at how many times I've died because my wyvern has a crush on my trusts and refuses to heal me until they're taken care of.

oh don't be too envious, automaton can still derp hardcore. Master is at 5% health... and I have Full HP and poison on... I KNOW WHAT TO DO!

"Kintoki casts poisona on Kintoki"
Gib has been defeated.
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By fillerbunny9 2014-07-02 18:18:27  
if I have Trusts out, I have Otto on Sharpshot, so I honestly have no idea how he'd behave as Spiritreaver/Soul Soother. as for rats Wyverns, I have had mine prioritize other party members over me more than a few times back when I was able to take my DRG to Delve and such, it doesn't surprise me that the damned things are preferential to Trust NPCs as well.
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By Nyruul 2014-07-02 18:28:03  
Siren.Inuyushi said: »
Sounds like to me the issue lies in that the Dragoon is prioritized over other PC players and trusts are viewed as the Dragoon itself as you summoned them. Like you said, just a bug where the source code is viewing the trusts as an extension of the PC player that summoned them. Just keep nagging SE and by the time summoner's get Atomos, it'll get fixed.

^this

annnd.. why dont you just solo with trust as DRG/SAM anyways? You should prioritize DMG and have trust WHMs do the healing. I know they run out of MP easily but you can just dismiss and cycle through the ones you have(I manage to do this only having 2 WHM trust, though you cant do this in battlefields.) Trust DD dmg is mostly unnoticeable compared to mine, they pretty much occasionally open a SC for me. Its very very obvious if you run scoreboard on them. Also tanks are useless to me because they can't hold hate off me from the get go. Most the time I only use 2 trust WHM + BRD.

Edit:I generally solo with trust as SAM/WAR however.
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 18:38:04  
Nyruul said: »
Siren.Inuyushi said: »
Sounds like to me the issue lies in that the Dragoon is prioritized over other PC players and trusts are viewed as the Dragoon itself as you summoned them. Like you said, just a bug where the source code is viewing the trusts as an extension of the PC player that summoned them. Just keep nagging SE and by the time summoner's get Atomos, it'll get fixed.

^this

annnd.. why dont you just solo with trust as DRG/SAM anyways? You should prioritize DMG and have trust WHMs do the healing. I know they run out of MP easily but you can just dismiss and cycle through the ones you have(I manage to do this only having 2 WHM trust, though you cant do this in battlefields.) Trust DD dmg is mostly unnoticeable compared to mine, they pretty much occasionally open a SC for me. Its very very obvious if you run scoreboard on them. Also tanks are useless to me because they can't hold hate off me from the get go. Most the time I only use 2 trust WHM + BRD.

I prefer DRG/RDM for soloing and you prefer DRG/SAM. There's nothing wrong with either choice. I just don't think the remedy for this bug should be to work around it. I shouldn't have to modify my sub job choice, SE should fix the line of code they overlooked. If these trusts are supposed to act as party members the behavior for Healing Breath should be the same between them and PC party members, which means they are only targeted after the dragoon is above 50% HP.
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By Nyruul 2014-07-02 18:44:41  
Siren.Kentai said: »
I prefer DRG/RDM for soloing and you prefer DRG/SAM. There's nothing wrong with either choice. I just don't think the remedy for this bug should be to work around it. I shouldn't have to modify my sub job choice, SE should fix the line of code they overlooked. If these trusts are supposed to act as party members the behavior for Healing Breath should be the same between them and PC party members, which means they are only targeted after the dragoon is above 50% HP.

Yes but you technically arn't soloing. What things do you generally do with trust? I only ever merit with trust myself and straight out zerging with my method has proven to me to be the best way. I've done some SKCNM with trust but you get more bang for your buck when your doing it with other people who are contributing orbs and you are doing D+.
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 19:19:30  
Nyruul said: »
Siren.Kentai said: »
I prefer DRG/RDM for soloing and you prefer DRG/SAM. There's nothing wrong with either choice. I just don't think the remedy for this bug should be to work around it. I shouldn't have to modify my sub job choice, SE should fix the line of code they overlooked. If these trusts are supposed to act as party members the behavior for Healing Breath should be the same between them and PC party members, which means they are only targeted after the dragoon is above 50% HP.

Yes but you technically arn't soloing. What things do you generally do with trust? I only ever merit with trust myself and straight out zerging with my method has proven to me to be the best way. I've done some SKCNM with trust but you get more bang for your buck when your doing it with other people who are contributing orbs and you are doing D+.

By your own definition I am soloing. In one of your previous posts you opened with "annnd.. why dont you just solo with trust as DRG/SAM anyways?". The efficiency of my play style shouldn't matter. I enjoy playing as DRG/RDM and using trusts while I do it. I think SE overlooked something in their code that is causing the trust npcs to be prioritized over a wyvern's owner. I wouldn't put it past them either. When they first introduced trusts they could not even receive healing breath, but they fixed it in a patch. They just need to finish the job now.
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By Nyruul 2014-07-02 19:25:50  
Siren.Kentai said: »
By your own definition I am soloing. In one of your previous posts you opened with "annnd.. why dont you just solo with trust as DRG/SAM anyways?". The efficiency of my play style shouldn't matter. I enjoy playing as DRG/RDM and using trusts while I do it. I think SE overlooked something in their code that is causing the trust npcs to be prioritized over a wyvern's owner. I wouldn't put it past them either. When they first introduced trusts they could not even receive healing breath, but they fixed it in a patch. They just need to finish the job now.

Seriously you didnt even answer my question, though I guess its a waste of time. You TECHNICALLY are not soloing regardless of what I said...

Well, I'm sure there's some people out that who eat spaghetti with spoons. All the power to ya.
 Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2014-07-02 19:26:58  
Siren.Kentai said: »
Lakshmi.Aelius said: »
Odin.Moondaddy said: »
healing breath will always target party member with lowest hp, its not a bug game has always been like this

This.

Incorrect. If the Dragoon is below the HP threshold as well as other party members, the dragoon is always prioritized.

No. I've been in way too many abyssea parties and personally seen it time and time again to where Healing Breath was use on the lowest hp% first. Even if I was in yellow or red, it would always go try for the lowest hp%. Unless anything has changed recently, this is how it has always been for the last... oh, I don't know, ever?

Yes, you are correct about the too far from healing breath comment but this was fixed within the last year or so. Wasn't always the case.

I'm also not talking about Trust NPCs. I'm talking PC party members.
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 20:28:27  
Lakshmi.Aelius said: »
Siren.Kentai said: »
Lakshmi.Aelius said: »
Odin.Moondaddy said: »
healing breath will always target party member with lowest hp, its not a bug game has always been like this

This.

Incorrect. If the Dragoon is below the HP threshold as well as other party members, the dragoon is always prioritized.

No. I've been in way too many abyssea parties and personally seen it time and time again to where Healing Breath was use on the lowest hp% first. Even if I was in yellow or red, it would always go try for the lowest hp%. Unless anything has changed recently, this is how it has always been for the last... oh, I don't know, ever?

Yes, you are correct about the too far from healing breath comment but this was fixed within the last year or so. Wasn't always the case.

I'm also not talking about Trust NPCs. I'm talking PC party members.

I gave you a quote directly from the wiki page for Healing Breath. I've been a main job dragoon for 7 years and a main healer for countless parties in linkshell events when we were short on mages. I know what I know because I've done it for a fourth of my life.

My friends were nice enough to volunteer for a demonstration, which you can see below. I am at close to half HP, my friends are at 8 and 10 percent HP. My wyvern heals me first even though I have the most HP by far, then he heals the next person down in my party list (10% HP), even though this person has a higher HP percentage than the person at the bottom of my list (8% HP). This in direct contradiction to your claim and follows the quote from the wiki page exactly:
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 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 20:47:46  
Nyruul said: »
Siren.Kentai said: »
By your own definition I am soloing. In one of your previous posts you opened with "annnd.. why dont you just solo with trust as DRG/SAM anyways?". The efficiency of my play style shouldn't matter. I enjoy playing as DRG/RDM and using trusts while I do it. I think SE overlooked something in their code that is causing the trust npcs to be prioritized over a wyvern's owner. I wouldn't put it past them either. When they first introduced trusts they could not even receive healing breath, but they fixed it in a patch. They just need to finish the job now.

Seriously you didnt even answer my question, though I guess its a waste of time. You TECHNICALLY are not soloing regardless of what I said...

Well, I'm sure there's some people out that who eat spaghetti with spoons. All the power to ya.

You're right, I did forget to answer your question, and I apologize for that. I use trusts for meriting, reives, and for fun because I simply enjoy watching how they interact with each other. I've never tried spaghetti with a spoon, but I've heard of people using on in combination with the fork :)
 Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2014-07-02 21:23:18  
Humbled.

Now that I think about it, most of my HB's were when my hp was white text.
 Siren.Kentai
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-02 21:24:28  
No worries ^^. I had to check myself honestly to make sure I wasn't going crazy.
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-09 10:11:50  
Well at least they've finally noticed this!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43135

In the Known Issues section: "•Wyverns will prioritize alter egos when using Healing Breath."

Really hope this results in a fix down the road ;_;
 Valefor.Auraflare
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By Valefor.Auraflare 2014-07-09 11:03:32  
Honestly I never noticed this. But then I usually have Kupipi out as one of my trusts when I'm solo (especially now with moonlight giving a higher amount of mp). So even if my wyvern does heal an npc first, I'm still unlikely to die.
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By Siren.Kentai 2014-07-09 11:41:42  
I usually use all DDs after I get my pro/shell from a whm trust. Then the whm gets the boot and I get in another trust I can SC off of :)

Just checked my thread on the official forums and saw this. Made my day!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43108-Dragoon-wyverns-prioritize-Alter-Egos-over-their-masters-when-using-Healing-Breath./page2

From Camate: "Alter egos must have some kind of secret wyvern treat that make wyverns want to heal them first...

We agree this should be changed and in the August version update we’ll be making adjustments to the prioritization rules for Healing Breath targets so that players are at the top of the priority list for heals
."
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