SE's Response To DRG's Future As A DD

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » SE's response to DRG's future as a DD
SE's response to DRG's future as a DD
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-16 14:29:06  
Asura.Loire said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.
Pretty sure the ja is call wyvern and under your categories it would place it as a pet job. Truth be told the way it should work is placing drg with wyvern out on the same level of damage output as a drk or mnk in current content on neutral mobs and have it drop down in damage when the pet is dead. Show its utility in piercing weak and melee friendly situations.

Breaths would need to be potent and instant (ws speed). As always the inability to buff the pet as you would the master even with the ability to share some buffs just really doesn't cut it. Pair that with how quick it can go down in heavy AoE settings they would need to really ramp up the -dt by a lot.
Look at the history of Dragoon's Call Wyvern ability - it was a 2 hour special, and would only enhance a dragoon's ability to deal total damage between them, while it was alive, otherwise it was a super gimp version of war, with a pointy stick.

SInce that time, there have been improvements in keeping and buffing the wyvern, but nothing notable to Dragoon's offensive capabilities. Even the Jumps are entirely dependent on the wyvern to deal any kind of notable damage, otherwise it takes away from actual dps when using them without the wyvern present.
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By Sieha1 2014-07-16 14:30:48  
I completely agree that the wyvern is under powered. It also needs more control, tho we did get some in the form of forcing breaths. However it needs better options and better AI like if a mob is resistant to magic, do a blunt physical ws. Maybe can have wyvern stances like sam's have and change the way it works, like the subjob thing but better.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-16 14:33:06  
I'd give up the wyvern breaths (except healing breath and restoring breath) for physical based skills...

or the addition of light and dark breaths.

I believe we have fire, wind, earth, thunder breaths currently?
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-16 14:37:37  
Does all 6 elements.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-16 14:38:10  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
I'd give up the wyvern breaths (except healing breath and restoring breath) for physical based skills...

or the addition of light and dark breaths.

I believe we have fire, wind, earth, thunder breaths currently?

We actually have the 6 lower elementals but the wyvern's AI normally attempts to target the mob's weakness so some elements are rarer than others.

Flame Breath - Single target Fire damage
Frost Breath - Single target Ice damage
Sand Breath - Single target Earth damage
Hydro Breath - Single target Water damage
Gust Breath - Single target Wind damage
Lightning Breath - Single target Lightning damage

Edit, beaten by a pirate!
 Asura.Loire
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By Asura.Loire 2014-07-16 14:40:41  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Asura.Loire said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.
Pretty sure the ja is call wyvern and under your categories it would place it as a pet job. Truth be told the way it should work is placing drg with wyvern out on the same level of damage output as a drk or mnk in current content on neutral mobs and have it drop down in damage when the pet is dead. Show its utility in piercing weak and melee friendly situations.

Breaths would need to be potent and instant (ws speed). As always the inability to buff the pet as you would the master even with the ability to share some buffs just really doesn't cut it. Pair that with how quick it can go down in heavy AoE settings they would need to really ramp up the -dt by a lot.
Look at the history of Dragoon's Call Wyvern ability - it was a 2 hour special, and would only enhance a dragoon's ability to deal total damage between them, while it was alive, otherwise it was a super gimp version of war, with a pointy stick.

SInce that time, there have been improvements in keeping and buffing the wyvern, but nothing notable to Dragoon's offensive capabilities. Even the Jumps are entirely dependent on the wyvern to deal any kind of notable damage, otherwise it takes away from actual dps when using them without the wyvern present.
The issue really is the feather touch that they take when choosing improvements to the wyvern both offensively and defensivly when it really need a ton in both categories to place it in par on neutral mobs and ahead on piercing.
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-16 14:40:56  
I still say SE should add a 1-hr ability called "Daddy". Upon use, the wyvern would look to the sky and shriek, after which a full sized Ouryu-esque wyrm would swoop down and perform a devastating attack against the target.

Or alternatively, the wyrm will simply replace the wyvern for an amount of time, dealing increased physical and breath attacks.
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-16 14:42:20  
...And seriously, with monster rearing now being added to Mog Gardens, why can't DRG raise wyverns to adulthood?
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-16 14:47:42  
Doesn't have to become giant, could just be naul-size but blue.
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-16 14:48:43  
Or green! Or yellow, or red, or...
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-16 14:50:00  
Baby wyvern is blue. I'm not familiar with reptiles scales evolving, but it seems strange that they would change colour.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2014-07-16 14:50:30  
Ryu DRG was top DD for a decent amount of time up until Delve release. DRG without Ryu really never had a chance.

I think that's the main source of frustration here; Ryu DRG maintained a respectable spot and contributed in meaningful ways other than being an Angon ***. Now SE is buffing other jobs and purposefully leaving DRG in the dust with the laughable promise of enhancing wyverns.

It almost seems like an angry SAM that lost a parse to a DRG has become lead Dev of the game with the recent changes(or lack of in DRG's case)...
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 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-07-16 14:51:41  
SE needs to redesign the entire wyvern system if they want to make it a pet job. Currently it's not a pet job nor it has "utility" of other pet jobs like BST PUP SMN.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-16 14:52:24  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Ryu DRG was top DD for a decent amount of time up until Delve release. DRG without Ryu really never had a chance.

I think that's the main source of frustration here; Ryu DRG maintained a respectable spot and contributed in meaningful ways other than being an Angon ***. Now SE is buffing other jobs and purposefully leaving DRG in the dust with the laughable promise of enhancing wyverns.

It almost seems like an angry gimp sam still using Soboro Sukehiro SAM that lost a parse to a DRG in 119 Delve content has become lead Dev of the game with the recent changes(or lack of in DRG's case)...
FTFY
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By Asura.Loire 2014-07-16 14:57:26  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Ryu DRG was top DD for a decent amount of time up until Delve release. DRG without Ryu really never had a chance.

I think that's the main source of frustration here; Ryu DRG maintained a respectable spot and contributed in meaningful ways other than being an Angon ***. Now SE is buffing other jobs and purposefully leaving DRG in the dust with the laughable promise of enhancing wyverns.

It almost seems like an angry SAM that lost a parse to a DRG has become lead Dev of the game with the recent changes(or lack of in DRG's case)...
At the same time though game balancing around the extreme cases and not for the majority of the playerbase was/is never really SE's stronsuit. In all honesty though drg's spotlight even in mythic catergory was short-lived with the content at the time. Spreadsheet math aside, practical use was still well under overpowered for ryu.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2014-07-16 15:00:55  
Martel might have more evidence with some saved parses, but I remember Ryu doing extremely well in Legion/ADL/Odin2/VW in our linkshell events. So much so that it made a few of us in LS make Ryu of our own.
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 15:04:07  
Asura.Loire said: »
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Ryu DRG was top DD for a decent amount of time up until Delve release. DRG without Ryu really never had a chance.

I think that's the main source of frustration here; Ryu DRG maintained a respectable spot and contributed in meaningful ways other than being an Angon ***. Now SE is buffing other jobs and purposefully leaving DRG in the dust with the laughable promise of enhancing wyverns.

It almost seems like an angry SAM that lost a parse to a DRG has become lead Dev of the game with the recent changes(or lack of in DRG's case)...
At the same time though game balancing around the extreme cases and not for the majority of the playerbase was/is never really SE's stronsuit. In all honesty though drg's spotlight even in mythic catergory was short-lived with the content at the time. Spreadsheet math aside, practical use was still well under overpowered for ryu.

^
Someone gets it. Even us Ryu owners were never as "Broken" as people though. During abyssea and VW era sure but you get massive buffs there. On anything else we were just another vanilla melee class with no offensive job abilities.

Too many people have cried that if you buff DRG as a whole then Ryu DRG will be overpowered and i'm sorry but that is just stupid.

I'm glad the general player base seems to be understanding this a little more lately. Hopefully something will change.
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By Asura.Loire 2014-07-16 15:07:41  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Martel might have more evidence with some saved parses, but I remember Ryu doing extremely well in Legion/ADL/Odin2/VW in our linkshell events. So much so that it made a few of us in LS make Ryu of our own.
And in our LS's case in legion/adl it was drk or war. Odin was sam and rng. And voidwatch is whoever didnt have to proc extremely weak. Our ryu drg enjoyed some time in the first delve release when all that deff down meant something but always the case of a strong competent player, could or would do better on jobs tailored to the content.

Case by case it is going to be different for sure but all I have personally seen is that, just like koga in legion, ryu never got close to that status in practical use.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-07-16 15:19:52  
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Asura.Loire said: »
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Ryu DRG was top DD for a decent amount of time up until Delve release. DRG without Ryu really never had a chance.

I think that's the main source of frustration here; Ryu DRG maintained a respectable spot and contributed in meaningful ways other than being an Angon ***. Now SE is buffing other jobs and purposefully leaving DRG in the dust with the laughable promise of enhancing wyverns.

It almost seems like an angry SAM that lost a parse to a DRG has become lead Dev of the game with the recent changes(or lack of in DRG's case)...
At the same time though game balancing around the extreme cases and not for the majority of the playerbase was/is never really SE's stronsuit. In all honesty though drg's spotlight even in mythic catergory was short-lived with the content at the time. Spreadsheet math aside, practical use was still well under overpowered for ryu.

^
Someone gets it. Even us Ryu owners were never as "Broken" as people though. During abyssea and VW era sure but you get massive buffs there. On anything else we were just another vanilla melee class with no offensive job abilities.

Too many people have cried that if you buff DRG as a whole then Ryu DRG will be overpowered and i'm sorry but that is just stupid.


Not sure which is more "stupid", you don't get what others are saying(multiple times) about the "buff DRG" issue.

The point wasn't even "Ryuno DRG is OP", but "Ryuno DRG is wayyy ahead of none ryuno DRG".

Are you going to deny the fact that none ryno DRG is wayyyy behind mythic? If yes then the above statement isn't stupid, it's a fact that even you'd agree. Stop trying to change the meaning of what others said by reading one sentence in a paragraph and skip the entire point.
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By Leviathan.Syagin 2014-07-16 15:23:38  
Make the damn Wyrm BIGGER!!
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 16:12:07  
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Not sure which is more "stupid", you don't get what others are saying(multiple times) about the "buff DRG" issue.

The point wasn't even "Ryuno DRG is OP", but "Ryuno DRG is wayyy ahead of none ryuno DRG".

Are you going to deny the fact that none ryno DRG is wayyyy behind mythic? If yes then the above statement isn't stupid, it's a fact that even you'd agree. Stop trying to change the meaning of what others said by reading one sentence in a paragraph and skip the entire point.

Afania.. really.. We have been over this before. I got your point after reading the 4 pages of text on the official forums. The conversation between you and 5 other people about this topic.

The gap isn't even close to as large as people think. When I say that there is this idea that you can't buff DRG because Ryu will be too OP i'm not just talking about you Afania. This seems to be the general consensus when you speak with people.

People have said, including you, that because non mythic DRG is so far behind Ryu DRG, if you buff DRG as a whole Ryu will be too OP. Or to quote you specifically "If you buff normal DRG to be as strong as a normal SAM, Ryu DRG will be too Overpowered". YOU have even gone so far as to say then people will "Only shout for a Ryu DRG" and I'm sorry, but that IS a stupid thing to say.

As someone who has played DRG for 11 years I can say without a doubt that the gap isn't as big as people think. DRG as a whole is a flawed job, mythic or not. And NO ONE here has said that you have to buff the job to be as strong SAM or any other DD without a mythic. We have just said that DRG as a whole needs a very sizable boost, not to dominate, but just to be competitive.
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-07-16 16:18:27  
Wyvern being alive giving some strong effect to drg is the way to go.

Hell they could make it like puppet attachement but instead it would give to the master.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-07-16 16:52:03  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Martel might have more evidence with some saved parses, but I remember Ryu doing extremely well in Legion/ADL/Odin2/VW in our linkshell events. So much so that it made a few of us in LS make Ryu of our own.
I don't really feel like digging up parses atm, but yeah. I think I usually did pretty well. Although, Mul wave 2+ was harsh on Ryu DRG, with that ridiculous crit-...

Heh. Remember that brief period where it was literally ALL RYU DRG at ADL? Was hilarious. And I'm claiming credit for that particular bandwagon. XD
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-07-16 23:57:19  
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Not sure which is more "stupid", you don't get what others are saying(multiple times) about the "buff DRG" issue.

The point wasn't even "Ryuno DRG is OP", but "Ryuno DRG is wayyy ahead of none ryuno DRG".

Are you going to deny the fact that none ryno DRG is wayyyy behind mythic? If yes then the above statement isn't stupid, it's a fact that even you'd agree. Stop trying to change the meaning of what others said by reading one sentence in a paragraph and skip the entire point.

Afania.. really.. We have been over this before. I got your point after reading the 4 pages of text on the official forums. The conversation between you and 5 other people about this topic.

The gap isn't even close to as large as people think. When I say that there is this idea that you can't buff DRG because Ryu will be too OP i'm not just talking about you Afania. This seems to be the general consensus when you speak with people.

People have said, including you, that because non mythic DRG is so far behind Ryu DRG, if you buff DRG as a whole Ryu will be too OP. Or to quote you specifically "If you buff normal DRG to be as strong as a normal SAM, Ryu DRG will be too Overpowered". YOU have even gone so far as to say then people will "Only shout for a Ryu DRG" and I'm sorry, but that IS a stupid thing to say.

As someone who has played DRG for 11 years I can say without a doubt that the gap isn't as big as people think. DRG as a whole is a flawed job, mythic or not. And NO ONE here has said that you have to buff the job to be as strong SAM or any other DD without a mythic. We have just said that DRG as a whole needs a very sizable boost, not to dominate, but just to be competitive.

Can you give me a number or percentage between a none mythic drg v.s mythic drg, and tsuru sam v.s mythic sam before fudo update?

If the gap between mythic/none mythic sam is smaller than mythic/none mythic drg, then my statement is correct.


It seems that your entire point was "drg sucks and we need a buff, mythic or not. If se isn't buffing it it's other player's fault."

But that wasn't even what we've been discussing on OF entire time.We were talking about the gap and barance entire time, and less about fixing drg. If you have opinion about this issue, convince ppl with numbers instead of "you're stupid if you say this"
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-07-17 00:02:58  
I used to parse pretty even with a tsuru sam from my ls before Koga, when I made koga I was 15-20% ahead everytime in Yorcia delve the gap should have been lower according to spreadsheet so I do not know what the issue was. That was before TP/WS update.
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By Ophannus 2014-07-17 13:33:58  
I'm scared that speeding up breaths will affect healing breath and will screw with Wyvern HP gear swapping.

I also said on OF that they should let Spirit Surge reset Call Wyvern timer since if the battle is <20min then after we use Spirit Surge, we're gimped so in essence, it's the only SP ability that gimps its user after use, especially if we lost our Wyvern which was pre-called before entering due to us dying to some bullsh*t one shot TP move or doom/death.


Wyvern damage is kinda good due to no level difference, hits TW mobs for close to 400, if we could increase Wyvern Attack to be ~1200-1500ish, would be hitting NMs/Bosses for that value which is quite decent DoT(would need to amp up breaths to be 3-4x the damage of an autoattack to make it worthwhile, or at least 2-3x if they're making it instacast. A trait that gives us +att/acc/attack speed with Wyvern out, or a stance like Berserk that gimps wyvern breath but gives DRG bonuses would be cool.
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By Odin.Rendra 2014-07-17 22:56:38  
This thread should be linked to the official forums or something... so maybe one of the reps would be able to show the devs or something. idk... just pointless to have all these ideas about what could be done about this job on this site when they won't look at it.
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By Creecreelo 2014-07-18 00:57:23  
Odin.Rendra said: »
This thread should be linked to the official forums or something... so maybe one of the reps would be able to show the devs or something. idk... just pointless to have all these ideas about what could be done about this job on this site when they won't look at it.

And they look at it/care on the official forums?
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By Odin.Rendra 2014-07-18 02:39:04  
Creecreelo said: »
Odin.Rendra said: »
This thread should be linked to the official forums or something... so maybe one of the reps would be able to show the devs or something. idk... just pointless to have all these ideas about what could be done about this job on this site when they won't look at it.

And they look at it/care on the official forums?

Well... They did respond to my original thread. Which is about drg's future. Which is how this thread originally started.