
DA attack rate cap?
Cerberus.Leauce
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 69
By Cerberus.Leauce 20140809 01:55:22
is there a cap on double attack rate?
if there is, does the occassionaly attacks twice effect from the wkr GA break this cap?
if it doesn't, how do the 2 effects work?
does the game go with the higher rate; for ex. da is 50%, oat wpn is 40%, 50% takes priority making oat wpn pointless?
any info is appreciated.
By Davorin 20140809 02:31:39
Double attack processes before "Occasionally attacks X times" weapons and the total attacks per round from all multiattack sources are limited to eight. The order of checks is QA > TA > DA > OAX.
I'm not sure of a known cap.
Ragnarok.Exavion
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 148
By Ragnarok.Exavion 20140809 03:12:24
I seem to recall DA kicking in on the OAT from Justice weapons.
Was that just Sea specific or does that apply to all OAT weapons?
By Davorin 20140809 03:18:33
I seem to recall DA kicking in on the OAT from Justice weapons.
Was that just Sea specific or does that apply to all OAT weapons?
Isolated to just the Virtue Weapons.
"Still, Virtue Weapon "Occasionally Attacks Twice" has a synergistic interaction with Double Attack (more Double Attack means more chances for stones to proc), while normal "Occasionally Attacks Twice" does not."
http://www.bgwiki.com/bg/Category:Virtue_Weapons
[+]
Bismarck.Marmite
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Bismarck.Marmite 20140809 11:29:10
is there a cap on double attack rate?
if there is, does the occassionaly attacks twice effect from the wkr GA break this cap?
if it doesn't, how do the 2 effects work?
does the game go with the higher rate; for ex. da is 50%, oat wpn is 40%, 50% takes priority making oat wpn pointless?
any info is appreciated.
Occasionally attacks twice weapon on warrior isn't going to give you as big an impact as other jobs. Mainly because warrior has so much natural double attack.
Taking your example if warrior has 50% DA, the 40% OAT is only applied to the remaining 50% of the remaining single attack rounds, giving a net of 20% (50% x 40%) OAT.
A job with 20% DA would net you 32% (80% x 40%) from OAT, making the OAT weapon more affective.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 401
By Odin.Rikiyame 20140809 11:35:37
I think there's also a diminishing effect, no? DA+1 means 101 hits, so DA+2 is really 1.99999, and so on, I think. Could be totally wrong.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2160
By Asura.Karbuncle 20140809 11:42:54
I think there's also a diminishing effect, no? DA+1 means 101 hits, so DA+2 is really 1.99999, and so on, I think. Could be totally wrong.
I was under the impression "Diminishing Returns" simply meant the higher your Double attack goes, the less overall Impact to your DPS adding more DA will have. An example:
DA+1 will give you +10% DPS, then adding another DA+1 will give you +9% DPS, another +1 will give you +8% and so on.
Obviously not to this extreme, just that each point impacts your DPS less and less as it approaches +100% DA. (Meaning the jump from DA+0 to DA+1 is >>>> than DA+99 to DA+100)
But all in the all it +1 means +1.
[+]
Cerberus.Detzu
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 869
By Cerberus.Detzu 20140809 12:10:29
The cap on DA rate is 100%.
QA and TA kick in before DA which reduces your DA rate.
There's' a guide about it in this site, I forgot the name of the guy who made it. But you'll find all the answers in it.
[+]
By Pantafernando 20140809 12:22:22
The cap on DA rate is 100%.
QA and TA kick in before DA which reduces your DA rate.
There's' a guide about it in this site, I forgot the name of the guy who made it. But you'll find all the answers in it.
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/31534/mathoaxmultiattackandyou/
By gdiShun 20140809 12:34:05
I think there's also a diminishing effect, no? DA+1 means 101 hits, so DA+2 is really 1.99999, and so on, I think. Could be totally wrong.
I was under the impression "Diminishing Returns" simply meant the higher your Double attack goes, the less overall Impact to your DPS adding more DA will have. An example:
DA+1 will give you +10% DPS, then adding another DA+1 will give you +9% DPS, another +1 will give you +8% and so on.
Obviously not to this extreme, just that each point impacts your DPS less and less as it approaches +100% DA. (Meaning the jump from DA+0 to DA+1 is >>>> than DA+99 to DA+100)
But all in the all it +1 means +1.
I seem to remember that diminishing returns *** was basically a weird way of saying "If you have a base DA rate of 10% and add 5% more, then that's a 50% increase in DA! Now if you add another 5% on top of that, it's only a 33% increase. 5% More is only a 20% increase. etc."
I think it was only really used for "Should I get Haste or DA?" sort of questions. Because literally everything but delay reduction has diminishing returns in that way. And as you said, +1 means +1.
VIP
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 20140809 14:02:12
I think there's also a diminishing effect, no? DA+1 means 101 hits, so DA+2 is really 1.99999, and so on, I think. Could be totally wrong.
I was under the impression "Diminishing Returns" simply meant the higher your Double attack goes, the less overall Impact to your DPS adding more DA will have. An example:
DA+1 will give you +10% DPS, then adding another DA+1 will give you +9% DPS, another +1 will give you +8% and so on.
Obviously not to this extreme, just that each point impacts your DPS less and less as it approaches +100% DA. (Meaning the jump from DA+0 to DA+1 is >>>> than DA+99 to DA+100)
But all in the all it +1 means +1.
I seem to remember that diminishing returns *** was basically a weird way of saying "If you have a base DA rate of 10% and add 5% more, then that's a 50% increase in DA! Now if you add another 5% on top of that, it's only a 33% increase. 5% More is only a 20% increase. etc."
I think it was only really used for "Should I get Haste or DA?" sort of questions. Because literally everything but delay reduction has diminishing returns in that way. And as you said, +1 means +1.
Unless you're at 100% DA, adding more is always more. When comparing apples to apples, the diminishing returns argument is crap, Duplus grip will always be better than Pole grip for example. It's really only a question of whether a different piece of gear is better in a given slot, which you can compare directly with a spreadsheet.
[+]
Bismarck.Marmite
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Bismarck.Marmite 20140809 15:16:52
It's not crap, it just depends on how you look at it.
In terms of number of attacks the increase is linear.
100 attacks 5 DA = 105 attacks
100 attacks 10 DA = 110 attacks
100 attacks 15 DA = 115 attacks
However, the actual DPS increase does have a diminishing return the higher DA becomes.
Let's say each attack does 1 dmg.
100 to 105 = 5% increase
105 to 110 = 4.76% increase
110 to 115 = 4.54% increase
By gdiShun 20140809 16:49:55
It's not crap, it just depends on how you look at it.
In terms of number of attacks the increase is linear.
100 attacks 5 DA = 105 attacks
100 attacks 10 DA = 110 attacks
100 attacks 15 DA = 115 attacks
However, the actual DPS increase does have a diminishing return the higher DA becomes.
Let's say each attack does 1 dmg.
100 to 105 = 5% increase
105 to 110 = 4.76% increase
110 to 115 = 4.54% increase
That has nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with being a weird way for people to judge equipment before spreadsheets were common.
DPS doesn't 'care' about the percentage increase of DA relative to itself. It cares about how much more you're DAing. So in other words the first part means more to DPS than the 2nd.
Just a quick example. The first number being what you worked out in your post. 200 being your average damage just as an example. We'll say delay is 240(4 seconds).
100 * 200 = 20k damage over 100 attack rounds. 20k / 400 = 50.0DPS
105 * 200 = 21k damage over 100 attack rounds. 21k / 400 = 52.5DPS
110 * 200 = 22k damage over 100 attack rounds. 22k / 400 = 55.0DPS
115 * 200 = 23k damage over 100 attack rounds. 23k / 400 = 57.5DPS
You'll notice it's linear, just like DA rate, and doesn't have any diminishing returns. DA+10% not being a 'true' 5% increase when compared to what it previously was(DA+5%) has no bearing on your DPS because it's still DA+10% at the end of the day.
EDIT: Added delay/DPS.
[+]
By pchan 20140809 17:05:23
It's not crap, it just depends on how you look at it.
In terms of number of attacks the increase is linear.
100 attacks 5 DA = 105 attacks
100 attacks 10 DA = 110 attacks
100 attacks 15 DA = 115 attacks
However, the actual DPS increase does have a diminishing return the higher DA becomes.
Let's say each attack does 1 dmg.
100 to 105 = 5% increase
105 to 110 = 4.76% increase
110 to 115 = 4.54% increase It's crap. hint :
Leveling up has decreasing returns on my total level.
Bismarck.Marmite
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Bismarck.Marmite 20140809 17:43:51
It's not crap, it just depends on how you look at it.
In terms of number of attacks the increase is linear.
100 attacks 5 DA = 105 attacks
100 attacks 10 DA = 110 attacks
100 attacks 15 DA = 115 attacks
However, the actual DPS increase does have a diminishing return the higher DA becomes.
Let's say each attack does 1 dmg.
100 to 105 = 5% increase
105 to 110 = 4.76% increase
110 to 115 = 4.54% increase
That has nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with being a weird way for people to judge equipment before spreadsheets were common.
DPS doesn't 'care' about the percentage increase of DA relative to itself. It cares about how much more you're DAing. So in other words the first part means more to DPS than the 2nd.
Just a quick example. The first number being what you worked out in your post. 200 being your average damage just as an example.
100 * 200 = 20k damage over 100 attack rounds.
105 * 200 = 21k damage over 100 attack rounds.
110 * 200 = 22k damage over 100 attack rounds.
115 * 200 = 23k damage over 100 attack rounds.
You'll notice it's linear, just like DA rate, and doesn't have any diminishing returns. DA+10% not being a 'true' 5% increase when compared to what it previously was(DA+5%) has no bearing on your DPS because it's still DA+10% at the end of the day.
You clearly don't understand the term "diminishing returns" or how it's calculated. Maybe you should research it...
Go away pchan
[+]
By gdiShun 20140809 17:50:54
It's not crap, it just depends on how you look at it.
In terms of number of attacks the increase is linear.
100 attacks 5 DA = 105 attacks
100 attacks 10 DA = 110 attacks
100 attacks 15 DA = 115 attacks
However, the actual DPS increase does have a diminishing return the higher DA becomes.
Let's say each attack does 1 dmg.
100 to 105 = 5% increase
105 to 110 = 4.76% increase
110 to 115 = 4.54% increase
That has nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with being a weird way for people to judge equipment before spreadsheets were common.
DPS doesn't 'care' about the percentage increase of DA relative to itself. It cares about how much more you're DAing. So in other words the first part means more to DPS than the 2nd.
Just a quick example. The first number being what you worked out in your post. 200 being your average damage just as an example.
100 * 200 = 20k damage over 100 attack rounds.
105 * 200 = 21k damage over 100 attack rounds.
110 * 200 = 22k damage over 100 attack rounds.
115 * 200 = 23k damage over 100 attack rounds.
You'll notice it's linear, just like DA rate, and doesn't have any diminishing returns. DA+10% not being a 'true' 5% increase when compared to what it previously was(DA+5%) has no bearing on your DPS because it's still DA+10% at the end of the day.
You clearly don't understand the term "diminishing returns" or how it's calculated. Maybe you should research it...
Go away pchan
Do educate me.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16155
By Valefor.Prothescar 20140809 18:07:47
The more DA you add, the less of a relative increase it is. Normally you do 1 hit per attack round; add 10 DA and you have 1.1 hits per attack round.
1.1/1 = 1.1
Add another 10 DA and you have 1.2.
1.2/1.1 = ~1.090909
I.E., less of a relative increase
Whether it's important depends on how you look at things, but since in FFXI you're always comparing one stat vs. another, knowing the relative increase is what's important. You're never looking at sitting at no DA and choosing between 40 and 50 or whatever hypothetical amount it may be.
If 40 was a consideration, then it'd be because it had other stats, so at that point you need to see whether the extra 10 DA (1.5/1.4 = ~7.14% increase) would outweigh the relative increase of that other stat that accompanied the 40 DA, and the more DA you have the more of a relative difference other stats may make. This is also before considering things like TA, QA, and AM3 which further devalue DA.
By gdiShun 20140809 18:31:00
Well said. I actually completely forgot that that was the context it was used. lol. I just remembered it being used by idiots saying 'x stat sucks because diminishing returns' when, again, literally everything outside of delay reduction has diminishing returns.
Cerberus.Leauce
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 69
By Cerberus.Leauce 20140810 01:11:01
Quote: Part 3: Occasionally Attacks X Times
It's likely that OAX weapons are calculated ingame the same way that multiattacks are; that is, giving priority to higher orders of OAX. That said, we don't have "given" distributions of OAX weapons, we only have observed distributions  and these would already account for any interaction between orders based on priority.
When we deal with OAX weapons, we use the observed distributions, so we don't have to worry about correcting for priority.
In other words, if X, Y and Z are the OA4,OA3, and OA2 rates of an OA24 weapon, then the average hits per round is
A = 1 + 3X + 2Y + Z
The same as the intuitively wrong way to do double/triple attack, etc.! But since our distribution already takes priority (if it exists) into account, we don't have to worry about it.
Sometimes the distributions are fuzzy for OAX weapons and it's easier to just use precalculated average hits per round. Here are some averages and/or estimates for common weapons:
Joyeuse 1.45
Ridill ~1.9
Magian OAT 1.4
Magian OA24 ~1.87  2.02
Kraken Club 3.82
The problem with OAX is that multiattack takes priority over it, so we have to deal with that when they're forced to interact!
Quote: Part 4: OAX and MultiAttack interaction
We can still use our previous formulas for multiattack in this section, but now we're going to assume we have a weapon with OAX and we have multiattack gear.
If multiattack procs on a swing, then the game will not check OAX, so we reduce the potency of OAX when we involve multiattack. It's not always a bad thing though. As long as you're adding a multiattack with order (4,3,2 etc.) greater than the average hits per round of the OAX weapon, you will still increase A.
So for example, adding double attack (order 2) to a magian OAT (A=1.4) still increases your average attacks per round.
Quote:
Thm 4.1 Sylow's Interaction Theorem
Let A be our average attacks per round, R>0 be the multiattack rate of order O and A_w be the average hits per round of an OAX weapon. If O > A_w, then increasing the Oorder multiattack rate by R will result in an increase in A and if O < A_w then it will result in a decrease.
Proof: Left as Exercise.
To get our average hits per round when we have an OAX weapon and multiattack, we pretty much just take the formula for multiattack, and add the additional attacks from OAX, scaled for how many times multiattack would proc. Probability theory lets us calculate this easily. We want to know the rate at which Quadruple Attack, Double Attack, and Triple attack didn't proc (R_s)? We just use Formula 2.3
(1Q) is the number of times Quadruple Attack doesn't proc.
(1T) is the number of times Triple Attack doesn't proc.
(1D) is the number of times Double Attack doesn't proc.
R_s = (1Q)(1T)(1D)
And we end up with this formula:
Quote:
Formula 4.1 Average Hits per Round of an OAX weapon considering MultiAttack Rates
1 + 3Q + 2(1Q)T + (1(Q+TQT))D + (1Q)(1T)(1D)(3X + 2Y + Z)
Here we only consider up to OA24 weapons. Where:
Q,T, and D are Quadruple, Triple, and Double Attack rates and
X,Y, and Z are OA4, OA3, and OA2 rates.
Notice we didn't keep the 1 in the OAX formula, because we already have it in the front.
If you're dual wielding and using only one OAX weapon, you can't just multiply by 2 now. You can, however, multiply the initial portion (the multiattack part) by 2, and add on the OAX portion. That formula looks like this:
Quote:
Formula 4.2: Average Hits per Round when DualWielding an OAX weapon considering MultiAttack Rates
2(1 + 3Q + 2(1Q)T + (1(Q+TQT))D) + (1Q)(1T)(1D)(3X + 2Y + Z)
Using the same variable definitions as above.
Appreciate all the info. special thanks to Pantafernando for linking that thread about DA, and OAX, and sylow for taking the time to write the thread.
the above spoiler has the pertinent info i was most interested in.
Of course, at the end of reading all of that thread, sylow provides a link to a DA/OAT calc he made to help determine the actual rate of multiattacks. so skipping the math; use the link below to get quick answers.
DA/OAT Calculator
basically, more multiattack isnt a bad thing, but like prothescar eluded to, need to weigh it against other factors, stats, etc.
thanks all for the help.
Lakshmi.Saevel
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 20140810 03:42:37
Understanding diminishing returns is also important for figuring out upgrade order for equipment. Take the pole vs duplus situation, duplus's is something like 20~50m depending on if your server has active groups farming it. If your at 40% DA, then it would be a total increase of 0.71%. Could that 20~50m be used to upgrade something else that would net you a larger increase then 0.71%? If so then it would be smarter to pursue the better upgrade and only go after the 0.71% upgrade when nothing else would provide a better increase for time / gil spent.
It's something we used back in 2004/2005 when noobs were thinking "I have lots of DA so I should put on more to make it better" instead of focusing on larger upgrades like Haste and Accuracy. Since haste has become so easy to cap it's become less of an issue, though accuracy is still highly situation dependent.
[+]
By Pantafernando 20140810 04:30:12
A good place to use that concept is when choosing between stacking magic damage and magic attack bonus. As those numbers are multiplied, the one with higher return will net higher dmg. Nowaday, with just staff alone giving 200+ magic damage in a single slot, mab normally is the way to go, regardless of magic tier.
By FaeQueenCory 20140810 05:54:23
A good place to use that concept is when choosing between stacking magic damage and magic attack bonus. As those numbers are multiplied, the one with higher return will net higher dmg. Nowaday, with just staff alone giving 200+ magic damage in a single slot, mab normally is the way to go, regardless of magic tier. Not exactly.
Mdmg is just a hard increase to the base damage of a spell, therefore it's more comparative to +INT stats.
MAB is multiplicative to the final total, which is why it's comparative to Maffinity.
And it IS completely different for tiers of spells.
For T1s, Mdmg will see a far greater boost than MAB.
For T5s, the opposite is so.
But considering most Mdmg gear comes with MAB of at least equal value...
The only point of comparison of them is moot.
(Except for the body slot... But given how ~+30MAB is common in that slot... There really is no comparison to the +10Mdmg available.)
By Pantafernando 20140810 06:37:37
A good place to use that concept is when choosing between stacking magic damage and magic attack bonus. As those numbers are multiplied, the one with higher return will net higher dmg. Nowaday, with just staff alone giving 200+ magic damage in a single slot, mab normally is the way to go, regardless of magic tier. Not exactly.
Mdmg is just a hard increase to the base damage of a spell, therefore it's more comparative to +INT stats.
MAB is multiplicative to the final total, which is why it's comparative to Maffinity.
And it IS completely different for tiers of spells.
For T1s, Mdmg will see a far greater boost than MAB.
For T5s, the opposite is so.
But considering most Mdmg gear comes with MAB of at least equal value...
The only point of comparison of them is moot.
(Except for the body slot... But given how ~+30MAB is common in that slot... There really is no comparison to the +10Mdmg available.)
Depend on your current magic damage.
The only point where 1 MAB= 1 mag dmg is when your total base dmg is equal of your total MAB, and the side with lower numbers will net a higher contribuiting due to diminish return.
As we are already a minimum of magic damage (with stone 1) of 210 (with any 119 staff and dINT zero), 1 magic dmg just will be more important than 1 MAB if you have more than 210 MAB total, whats feasible, but if you already have such good gear, most likely you will have way more than 210 base damage due to dINT.
And in any case, "far greater" isnt the right measure of the diference.
is there a cap on double attack rate?
if there is, does the occassionaly attacks twice effect from the wkr GA break this cap?
if it doesn't, how do the 2 effects work?
does the game go with the higher rate; for ex. da is 50%, oat wpn is 40%, 50% takes priority making oat wpn pointless?
any info is appreciated.

