Chiner's Belt +1 Vs NQ Windbuffet

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Thief » Chiner's Belt +1 vs NQ Windbuffet
Chiner's Belt +1 vs NQ Windbuffet
 Fairy.Turnerbrown
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By Fairy.Turnerbrown 2014-11-28 10:43:44  
Was wondering if the + Triple Attack Damage could hold up against 1% Quadruple Attack.
I did some simple math; I'm sure a simple algebra equation would work better.

Both belts give 2% triple attack rate.
The Chiner's adds another 5% damage to those hits, while Windbuffet adds 1% quadruple attack.

For non-thief jobs, or with low base Triple Attack, it's no contest in favor of Windbuffet.

Per 100 hits with 100% accuracy, averaging 100 dmg/hit:

Two hits will triple with either belt.
Windbuffet adds 1 quadruple attack,
Chiner's adds 5% damage to each.

So, Chiner's = 6 hits * 105 damage = 630 damage.
Windbuffet = 10 hits * 100 damage = 1000 damage.

Base damage has no effect: If it were 1000 dmg/hit, then it's simply 6300 extra damage vs 10000 extra damage.

However, base triple attack rate, if high enough, will put Chiner's ahead of NQ Windbuffet.

Assuming 30% rate with either belt:
Chiner's = 90 hits * 105 damage = 9,450 damage
Windbuffet = 94 hits * 100 damage = 9,400 damage

Assuming 99% rate:
Chiners = 297 hits * 105 damage = 31,185
Windbuffet = 301 hits * 100 = 30,100 damage

I'm not sure how this translates to weaponskills, if you're using multihit WS.
I would assume you'd want the extra 5% damage on the triples for 99% of your weaponskills.
 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2014-11-28 13:19:06  
Um... you can put all of that into the spread sheet and it will tell you which has the higher dps.
 Fairy.Turnerbrown
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By Fairy.Turnerbrown 2014-11-28 13:23:29  
Thanks. I just wasn't sure the spreadsheet accounted for the +5 triple attack damage.
 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2014-11-28 13:25:30  
you can add pieces of gear manually. already exiting gear with ta damage bonus.
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By Pantafernando 2014-11-28 13:28:44  
There are more factor to consider, imo.

With more extra hits, you increase the amount of critical hits in a fixed amount of time, and extra hits mean faster tp gain, so in a long run, player with higher multi hit attack will be dealing extra ws. Like your last example, where the chiner belt won by a margin of 1085. The extra 4 hits would mean an extra fudo for sam, so the windbuffet side must consider extra 4000+.

Those variable arent linear, so simple aritmetic wont be enough to solve that, imo. Would need simulations.
 Lakshmi.Sulia
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By Lakshmi.Sulia 2014-11-28 14:40:32  
Pantafernando said: »
There are more factor to consider, imo.

With more extra hits, you increase the amount of critical hits in a fixed amount of time, and extra hits mean faster tp gain, so in a long run, player with higher multi hit attack will be dealing extra ws. Like your last example, where the chiner belt won by a margin of 1085. The extra 4 hits would mean an extra fudo for sam, so the windbuffet side must consider extra 4000+.

Those variable arent linear, so simple aritmetic wont be enough to solve that, imo. Would need simulations.

If you notice, the person was attempting to make the consideration with a job that has a high native triple attack. They stated in the first post that Windbuffet would likely win out for most jobs. They were asking particularly for THF, which has the native Triple Attack job trait.
 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2014-11-28 15:59:23  
Has "Triple Attack Damage" gear ever been tested with Mythic Aftermath?
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By Pantafernando 2014-11-28 16:21:52  
Lakshmi.Sulia said: »
Pantafernando said: »
There are more factor to consider, imo.

With more extra hits, you increase the amount of critical hits in a fixed amount of time, and extra hits mean faster tp gain, so in a long run, player with higher multi hit attack will be dealing extra ws. Like your last example, where the chiner belt won by a margin of 1085. The extra 4 hits would mean an extra fudo for sam, so the windbuffet side must consider extra 4000+.

Those variable arent linear, so simple aritmetic wont be enough to solve that, imo. Would need simulations.

If you notice, the person was attempting to make the consideration with a job that has a high native triple attack. They stated in the first post that Windbuffet would likely win out for most jobs. They were asking particularly for THF, which has the native Triple Attack job trait.

But i didnt disagree with op. I just stated there are more factor to consider aside raw dmg. Even raw dmg, is maybe 50% of total dmg a player can deal. The other 50% comes from ws, and ws frequency can be affected to multihit but not for increase dmg stats.

Even thf, just should have how much ta above other jobs? 11%? It still fairly low to consider anything would change more for thf than other jobs.
 Sylph.Malphius
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By Sylph.Malphius 2014-11-28 17:27:48  
Id be curious to know as well if the belt works on Mythic trip attack.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-11-28 17:42:51  
Just spend the gil and go with the windbuffet+1 :P
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-11-28 18:21:43  
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice. Chiner's is poop. It's a macro piece for Assassin's Charge, even then it's still poop.
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 Shiva.Ladyofhonor
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By Shiva.Ladyofhonor 2014-12-16 04:06:59  
And there's also the extra 1-2 accuracy on Chiner's to consider, and the fact that we don't hit the dDEX cap on everything, and an extra 7 DEX could bring us to that. I think I'm sticking with Chiner's+1 for now.
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By charlo999 2014-12-16 05:01:16  
Chiners +1 is prob best on rudras if using mythic and if it works on aftermath, unless the damage lost from activating aftermath and not rudraing isn't to much(I'd expect the extra tp gain would make it viable).
And nice for AC stacked rudras and skillchaining AC Rudras. 12% damage with reforged relic feet.
For tp gain only with mythic and aftermath up could it compete. Haven't run numbers.
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-16 08:20:50  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice

It's sad how many people need reading comprehension classes.

"deals Sextuple damage" =/= 6 hit ws.
Animation =/= amount of hits. Stroke is a single hit.
"occ att x" =/= DA/TA/QA
 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-12-16 08:45:31  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice

It's sad how many people need reading comprehension classes.

"deals Sextuple damage" =/= 6 hit ws.
Animation =/= amount of hits. Stroke is a single hit.
"occ att x" =/= DA/TA/QA

People could just do some research and read this:

OAX, Multi-Attack, and You

Would consider this mandatory for anyone who is talking about a mythic in any way shape or form..

People.. if you don't know this info you are just spreading nonsense :/
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2014-12-16 09:37:31  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice. Chiner's is poop. It's a macro piece for Assassin's Charge, even then it's still poop.

Assuming you have capped Assassin's Charge, there are occasions where Chiner's+1 actually won't proc (because of QA proc), correct? I initially had a Chiner's + Demonry + Poulaines +2 for TA macro, but parted ways with the ring and belt because I didn't want a macro item that worked 'some of the time'.
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By Nazrious 2014-12-16 10:00:54  
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice

It's sad how many people need reading comprehension classes.

"deals Sextuple damage" =/= 6 hit ws.
Animation =/= amount of hits. Stroke is a single hit.
"occ att x" =/= DA/TA/QA

People could just do some research and read this:

OAX, Multi-Attack, and You

Would consider this mandatory for anyone who is talking about a mythic in any way shape or form..

People.. if you don't know this info you are just spreading nonsense :/

My head for math is not great.

If OAX can't proc once a quad/trip/da atk proc would DA be counter productive? Perhaps I'm missunderstanding.
Example if a Mythic(hypo) gives 20% OAX(3) would subbing War with 10% DA a negative?

OA3 @ 20% = 20/100 3-4 attacks in a 100 rounds.
10% DA = 10/100 2 attacks

Combined

10%da = 10/100 thus 90 with 20% OA3 18/90
10 extra atks + 36 extra atks = 46 extra

If we bump up DA to 25%
25%DA = 25/100 leaving 75 for 20%OA3 = 15/75

25 extra atks + 30 extra atks = 55

Lets then try 50%da

50%Da = 50/100 leaving 20%OA3 at 10/50
50 extra atk + 20 extra atks = 70extra atks.

Overlaping DA with OA
80%Da vs 90%Da maintai 20%OA3

80%DA 80/100 leaving 20%OA3 4/20
80 extra atks + 8 extra =88 extra

85%da
85/100 20%OA3 3/15
85 extra + 6 extra =91 extra

90% DA = 90/100 leaving 20%OA3 2/10

90 extra atks + 4 extra atk = 94 extra


If I read that post correctly. Then in the event of OA3 thee really is almost no down, but if the weapon OA3+ then there will be a point where DA negatively impacts damage

Granted this is all hypothetical dont even know what the reality of DA cap is, if there is one, but if DA procs over OAX then its something to consider. Also Lol at my math skills.

Edit: Oh God just considered trip and quad if you have 30% of those combined then the sample of attack would shrink to 70

If Da= 50% then that would be 35/70....
yeah, givin up.
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By charlo999 2014-12-16 10:28:12  
I've never read anything and have just searched and still can't find any testing that says triple attack damage + will/won't work on a mythic OAT procing on a ws or tp round.
I'm aware of multi attack differences.
If you can give me a link to it, instead of the link to the different types of distribution/differences between them that would be great.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2014-12-16 10:39:58  
I don't know where, but I remember hearing DA+dmg/TA+dmg gear doesn't work with OAT items. Don't know the thread or specific link (maybe was on the bg forums).

Though this can be tested by using QuahizTrousers/Head and Xuil sword (or tamaxchi club) as BLU or PLD with no /war sub or any gear on. Calculate the damage done on only the multi-attacks. Switch to a similar damage sword and equip a brutal earring. Record the double attacks, and then note the difference.
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By charlo999 2014-12-16 10:45:17  
Can't do that because mythics OAT work differently. It can proc on a WS for one like a native trait.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-12-16 10:45:30  
With the way DEX works now for Rudra; wouldn't that one Dex +10 belt be best?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2014-12-16 10:55:09  
Can use THF with mythic dagger and relic+2 feet, and then test with them off?
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By charlo999 2014-12-16 10:57:36  
Be hard to tell what was native triple attack and what was mythic AOT.
Actually could just see if there were any damage differences with it on and off. If 12% wasn't within the damage threshold.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-16 11:50:26  
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
With the way DEX works now for Rudra; wouldn't that one Dex +10 belt be best?

Yes, varies by target, but 1 DEX is MASSIVE. Chiner's is just plain bad (usually).

As stated AC can proc QA nullifying chiner's bonus. It's not a HUGE difference, but best is best.
 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-12-16 12:26:32  
Nazrious said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice

It's sad how many people need reading comprehension classes.

"deals Sextuple damage" =/= 6 hit ws.
Animation =/= amount of hits. Stroke is a single hit.
"occ att x" =/= DA/TA/QA

People could just do some research and read this:

OAX, Multi-Attack, and You

Would consider this mandatory for anyone who is talking about a mythic in any way shape or form..

People.. if you don't know this info you are just spreading nonsense :/

My head for math is not great.

I didn't bother posting everything you said, but..

It is a common misconception that adding double attack will impact your DPS negatively under the effects of AM3. (OAT and OA3) You will still gain a DPS increase with more multi-attack, however, the effect will be dramatically less than if you did not have AM3 up. Adding double attack does still increase your chance of a multi-attack proc. If it didn't increase your DPS at all, or it truly hurt it, most Koga SAMs would be subbing DRK now.

That being said, there are stats that will increase your damage more than adding double attack under the effects of AM3. Most AM3 up sets you will see limit the amount of double attack, not because it is a negative but because they replace it with better stats. Depending on the situation you will see Crit rate/dmg, Attack, STR, ACC, DEX, STP (my favorite as a DRG after the WS update).. all of these will increase your DPS in certain situations more so than adding DA under the effects of AM3.

Please do not confuse this with DA being a negative though. There are so many ***mythic owners out there and part of it is that thinking, and they strip out all DA from their AM sets. All stat choices under AM3 are situational and should be considered accordingly.
 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-12-16 12:39:08  
charlo999 said: »
I've never read anything and have just searched and still can't find any testing that says triple attack damage + will/won't work on a mythic OAT procing on a ws or tp round.
I'm aware of multi attack differences.
If you can give me a link to it, instead of the link to the different types of distribution/differences between them that would be great.

If the text reads Triple Attack Damage +, I would take that as what it means.. it increases the damage done by an actual Triple Attack proc. Like the link above states, and like you already know.. OA3 is different than Triple Attack. It is coded into and checked within their system differently.

I don't have a link to confirm and don't know of any, but i'm pretty sure the damage+ would proc on any TA including AC and WS TA procs, but not OA3. (Since it is not triple attack)
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By charlo999 2014-12-16 13:09:11  
I'm not being an *** about it but giving information without data under the assumption of "cause I said so" doesn't strike me as good info.
I've seen weirder stuff from SE and as I've said mythic aftermath OAT seems to be in a league of its own.
I could easily be wrong but I haven't seen anything either way.
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By Nazrious 2014-12-16 13:15:31  
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Nazrious said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
Triple attack =/= Occasionally attack thrice

It's sad how many people need reading comprehension classes.

"deals Sextuple damage" =/= 6 hit ws.
Animation =/= amount of hits. Stroke is a single hit.
"occ att x" =/= DA/TA/QA

People could just do some research and read this:

OAX, Multi-Attack, and You

Would consider this mandatory for anyone who is talking about a mythic in any way shape or form..

People.. if you don't know this info you are just spreading nonsense :/

My head for math is not great.

I didn't bother posting everything you said, but..

It is a common misconception that adding double attack will impact your DPS negatively under the effects of AM3. (OAT and OA3) You will still gain a DPS increase with more multi-attack, however, the effect will be dramatically less than if you did not have AM3 up. Adding double attack does still increase your chance of a multi-attack proc. If it didn't increase your DPS at all, or it truly hurt it, most Koga SAMs would be subbing DRK now.

That being said, there are stats that will increase your damage more than adding double attack under the effects of AM3. Most AM3 up sets you will see limit the amount of double attack, not because it is a negative but because they replace it with better stats. Depending on the situation you will see Crit rate/dmg, Attack, STR, ACC, DEX, STP (my favorite as a DRG after the WS update).. all of these will increase your DPS in certain situations more so than adding DA under the effects of AM3.

Please do not confuse this with DA being a negative though. There are so many ***mythic owners out there and part of it is that thinking, and they strip out all DA from their AM sets. All stat choices under AM3 are situational and should be considered accordingly.

Thanks for responding.

I wasn't going for a strip out DA argument, what I saw in the math is that at some point when DA overlaps it will affect OAX procs. So at what point if any does DA hinder OAX, for the sake of argument lets say on Jobs like Dnc with Terp. with a decent amount of Trip and Quad.

They can pop Saber and get 50$+ DA with gear etc. When if at all would this affect, if at all hinder, OA3 of Terp?