Whm Role In Today's Endgame.

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whm role in today's endgame.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-08 19:12:57  
Valefor.Philemon said: »
Odin.Tamoa said: »
Heh, I remember when doing Legion, I really struggled as /sch. Sublimation alone just wasn't enough, and it also wasn't an uncommon occurrence where I took damage which screwed up sublimation completely. I found myself having more mp issues as /sch compared to /rdm.
Legion had a lot of downtime where you weren't constantly casting (which would favor /SCH). In a situation like that where you could wait for convert to come up and cast refresh between waves, then yeah /RDM would become more favorable.

I prefer /SCH almost universally but /RDM is still useful if there are a lot of breaks in the action or if you need MP instantly.

Apart from the fact Light arts is > convert and refresh combined. So you wouldn't run out of MP with it, your MP would last longer just hitting 1 JA before you even start.. you can full stack a Sublimation 3 hours in advance and gain an extra 350 MP and it's a complete trounding session of RDM.

This has been widel known even in Legion where it was prven then SCH owns RDM unless you need a spell specifically from /rdm
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 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2015-04-08 19:31:00  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Valefor.Philemon said: »
Odin.Tamoa said: »
Heh, I remember when doing Legion, I really struggled as /sch. Sublimation alone just wasn't enough, and it also wasn't an uncommon occurrence where I took damage which screwed up sublimation completely. I found myself having more mp issues as /sch compared to /rdm.
Legion had a lot of downtime where you weren't constantly casting (which would favor /SCH). In a situation like that where you could wait for convert to come up and cast refresh between waves, then yeah /RDM would become more favorable.

I prefer /SCH almost universally but /RDM is still useful if there are a lot of breaks in the action or if you need MP instantly.

Apart from the fact Light arts is > convert and refresh combined. So you wouldn't run out of MP with it, your MP would last longer just hitting 1 JA before you even start.. you can full stack a Sublimation 3 hours in advance and gain an extra 350 MP and it's a complete trounding session of RDM.

This has been widel known even in Legion where it was prven then SCH owns RDM unless you need a spell specifically from /rdm
Strictly for argument's sake (again I prefer /SCH for almost all situations), since Light Arts saves you more MP the more you cast while /RDM returns a static amount of MP, wouldn't there be a point where you're not spending enough MP and /RDM is superior? I'm sure it's been mathed out as you said, but that math would have to have some base assumption of how much MP is being spent per convert cycle. At this point I'm just curious.
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By ikariiiii 2015-04-08 20:31:52  
If MP is an issue, you're doing it wrong. The truth is, /SCH vs /RDM is really just a preferential choice for certain spells. /RDM doesn't have to worry if they need a quick sleep or dispel, vs /SCH light arts would have to swap to dark arts and addendum:black.

I'm sure you can argue both ways for days (and that's probably what will happen after I submit this post), so here's the bottom line: Everything is situational, pick what fits the situation best.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-08 21:05:35  
Quote:
Strictly for argument's sake (again I prefer /SCH for almost all situations), since Light Arts saves you more MP the more you cast while /RDM returns a static amount of MP, wouldn't there be a point where you're not spending enough MP and /RDM is superior?

/SCH will still win. It has to do with the interaction between WHM cure pants and light arts. LA is a front end MP deduction while the pants are a back end refund that ignores the cost of the spell. The result of that is you get much larger savings then 10% per cure.

Ex:

That is how awesome /SCH is for healing efficiency, LA easily overpowers convert + refresh and sublimation acts as a backup emergency battery for whenever bad things happen. Best of all you don't have to go into red HP in the middle of dangerous fights where a badly timed / placed AoE can hit you for 800+ damage and you don't need to waste precious time healing yourself.

The only thing /RDM gives you is black magic enfeebles like blind / sleep / dispel / distract / frazzle and the ranged haste buff flurry. Those are very fight specific and it's almost always in your best interest to have a RDM, BLM, GEO or SCH do those instead of your healer.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-08 21:22:52  
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
/sch gets sleep and dispel too nerd, in fact Sleepga dispelga due to manifestation

That requires you hit a JA and use a stratagem to enter AB, which if your really aggressive on accession might not be available. /RDM would get it regardless of the situation.

I'm a HUGE proponent of /SCH, its by far the best SJ for WHM, I just want to be fair to those who argue for /RDM. Personally the only time I've gone /RDM in the past four years has been when a PUG was doing AA's and the BRD only had /WHM. I needed to cast flurry on the RNG's, it felt dirty and I prefer the BRD take that duty (/RDM is better for them anyway) but you work with what you got.
 
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2015-04-09 00:22:59  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Don't spam your highest level cures on everything you heal. With capped -enmity in gear, 500+ Healing Magic, and enough cure power, you can very easily use Cure III/IV with occasional Cure V's when needed and not pull hate if you are competent. The same goes for Curaga I-IV.

Basically what I'm saying is know how much you Cures heal for and use them accordingly, the less you overheal the better you will be.

Cure VI and Curaga V are never really needed any more. They were made for Abyssea HP totals back when it was normal content.

Isn't Cure V lower hate than Cure IV due to Set Emnity of Cure 5 as apposed to scaling enmity on Cure IV?

Cure V VE: 800 CE: 400 (About Equal to Cure 3) which means that assuming MP isn't an issue (I.E. Gjallahorn Ballads) Cure V may be better to use assuming you don't need to mitigate MP as heavily (thereby making Orison pants the best cure legs available due to MP conversion over the other pants) for more HP and the same Threat as Cure 3.

You really should try and steer away from Cure 4 since they fixed Emnity and if you have say PLD BRD GEO, your WHM (because I know mine can) have no MP issues without Ballads or GEO refresh, BRD helps tremendously obviously (and always Sub SCH as its Superior to every option by a MASSIVE margin).


Technically yes, you're right, Cure V does build less enmity than Cure IV, but not by enough to make a difference from what I've seen. I've kept my Cure set at -50 enmity and 500+ Healing Magic(among other stats) and have yet to have an issue pulling hate once, my most used cures are Cure 3/4 and Curaga 2/3. Cure V and Curaga IV get used occasionally as well but only when people take damage that requires them.

If you aren't in danger of pulling hate either way, learning when to use what cures and using them appropriately makes you a better WHM over all. So because you can just stack MP/tick from outside sources that's an excuse not to have to think about what cure to use? Just throw your highest cure out and don't worry about it.

You do realize that technically, the more you over heal the less effective the WHM empyrean legs become, right? The MP they reduce cure cost by is based off how much your cures actually heal for, not what they can potentially go off for. If you use Cure V and only heal the person for 300~ HP, you only get 5% of 300 HP back, instead of the 1100-1500~ or more you could get back if you had used it for a lower health total instead.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-09 00:43:25  
Quote:
I've kept my Cure set at -50 enmity and 500+ Healing Magic(among other stats) and have yet to have an issue pulling hate once, my most used cures are Cure 3/4 and Curaga 2/3. Cure V and Curaga IV get used occasionally as well but only when people take damage that requires them.

Curaga III is the most OP cure in the game. Strong enough to keep everyone out of death range but still cheap and fairly low enmity. Very little risk of overcuring for maximum effect of the WHM legs, which are 6% now btw.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2015-04-09 00:45:01  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Quote:
I've kept my Cure set at -50 enmity and 500+ Healing Magic(among other stats) and have yet to have an issue pulling hate once, my most used cures are Cure 3/4 and Curaga 2/3. Cure V and Curaga IV get used occasionally as well but only when people take damage that requires them.

Curaga III is the most OP cure in the game. Strong enough to keep everyone out of death range but still cheap and fairly low enmity. Very little risk of overcuring for maximum effect of the WHM legs, which are 6% now btw.

Only if you have them +1'd. :P
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2015-04-09 10:44:19  
Saevel don't forget about Conserve MP too, /SCH gives a +25% proc rate. That skews the numbers even further toward /SCH. For example here's the Cure IV math you used with Conserve MP thrown in:

Cure IV for 950HP
/RDM
88MP
950 * 0.06 = 57MP refunded
88 - 57 = 31MP spent

/SCH
80MP
74.4MP average cost after Conserve MP
950 * 0.06 = 57MP refunded
74.4 - 57 = 17.4MP spent on average

31/17.4 = 78.16% higher cost.

/SCH is insanely efficient.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-09 10:53:27  
Yeah completely forgot about Conserve MP being in there. It's so random that I never think about it, but your right in aggregate it will save a significant amount of MP.

There is just no contest between /SCH and everything else unless the healer needs a specific spell.
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By FaeQueenCory 2015-04-09 11:58:10  
And don't forget that RegenIVga that /SCH gives you helps cut down on actual curing, which further reduces MP spent.

Of course that's only in a nonRNG-DD setup...
But that happens from time to time.

If /SCH gave the same regen boost that SCH has in Light Arts...
Then there would be no possible argument because /SCH would just be absolute.
Shame it doesn't though.
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By Namonaki 2015-04-09 12:21:29  
I'd say /sch over /rdm in any situation unless you plan on being in the fray and maybe phalanx will be more beneficial to you. Any MP concerns I leave to the BRD.

Before all the armor and stuff though, take time to understand what the TP moves inflict on your party...saves you more headache and frustration. Also preventive curing yai.

Also Penury/Celerity > Arise? Awsum!
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-10 13:15:47  
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Don't spam your highest level cures on everything you heal. With capped -enmity in gear, 500+ Healing Magic, and enough cure power, you can very easily use Cure III/IV with occasional Cure V's when needed and not pull hate if you are competent. The same goes for Curaga I-IV.

Basically what I'm saying is know how much you Cures heal for and use them accordingly, the less you overheal the better you will be.

Cure VI and Curaga V are never really needed any more. They were made for Abyssea HP totals back when it was normal content.

Isn't Cure V lower hate than Cure IV due to Set Emnity of Cure 5 as apposed to scaling enmity on Cure IV?

Cure V VE: 800 CE: 400 (About Equal to Cure 3) which means that assuming MP isn't an issue (I.E. Gjallahorn Ballads) Cure V may be better to use assuming you don't need to mitigate MP as heavily (thereby making Orison pants the best cure legs available due to MP conversion over the other pants) for more HP and the same Threat as Cure 3.

You really should try and steer away from Cure 4 since they fixed Emnity and if you have say PLD BRD GEO, your WHM (because I know mine can) have no MP issues without Ballads or GEO refresh, BRD helps tremendously obviously (and always Sub SCH as its Superior to every option by a MASSIVE margin).


Technically yes, you're right, Cure V does build less enmity than Cure IV, but not by enough to make a difference from what I've seen. I've kept my Cure set at -50 enmity and 500+ Healing Magic(among other stats) and have yet to have an issue pulling hate once, my most used cures are Cure 3/4 and Curaga 2/3. Cure V and Curaga IV get used occasionally as well but only when people take damage that requires them.

If you aren't in danger of pulling hate either way, learning when to use what cures and using them appropriately makes you a better WHM over all. So because you can just stack MP/tick from outside sources that's an excuse not to have to think about what cure to use? Just throw your highest cure out and don't worry about it.

You do realize that technically, the more you over heal the less effective the WHM empyrean legs become, right? The MP they reduce cure cost by is based off how much your cures actually heal for, not what they can potentially go off for. If you use Cure V and only heal the person for 300~ HP, you only get 5% of 300 HP back, instead of the 1100-1500~ or more you could get back if you had used it for a lower health total instead.


To be clear I wasn't arguing in favor of using cure 5 exclusively, but if there targets HP deficit is more than your Cure 5, use cure 5 if you have mp out the ***.

No one should ever over cure unless you need to Cureskin/soak the tank to take a rather nasty move.
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 Valefor.Thelaughingman
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By Valefor.Thelaughingman 2015-05-30 03:46:13  
Valefor.Seranos said: »
While, with /RDM you do get:

Don't forget Magic Attack Bonus! Divine Magic nukes are so essential to White Mage that you'll forget that you don't have the extra MP to cast them because you weren't using Light Arts.

The only thing that /SCH really needs at this point to completely destroy /RDM would be the light weather spell. Sadly, you don't get that.
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By swaggernaught 2015-05-30 05:12:33  
FaeQueenCory said: »
Enfeebling on WHM is almost as dead as haste cycling.
Namely cause RDM+GEO has basically replaced BRD+COR for almost every thing.
So needing enfeebling sets, while good to have, isn't as required as it used to be. Just like how knowing how to keep a haste cycle up is something RDM has taken control of. (Of which I am not complaining over... One less thing to keep track of means it's easier to keep -nas up right.)

Also: don't spam Curaga V.
Don't spam curagas. (Though there are times where you might have to do so frequently.)
Learn how enmity works and cure appropriately.
Just... Don't Curaga V all the things.
You just die from that.



Enfeebling is not dead you can stil land silence and addle