Amalric (HQ) - Vs. - Helios For Magic Bursting

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Black Mage » Amalric (HQ) - Vs. - Helios For Magic Bursting
Amalric (HQ) - Vs. - Helios For Magic Bursting
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By Dsuza 2015-08-27 09:05:28  
Hey everyone. I'm just curious how the Amalric set compares to Helios for magic bursting. I know it depends on which augments you have for both pieces, and if you have a set bonus for using more then 1 piece of Amalric, etc.

For example path A on Amalric

Vs.

Helios with Magic Attack & Magic Acc +20 - AND Magic Burst DMG +10% Augments

Curious which slots of either are better for magic bursting.


Also any other/more info comparing the 2 sets in general for any different situation you can think of I would really appreciate too.

Thanks in advance everyone
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By cowardlybabooon 2015-09-11 17:57:26  
I don't think anyone responded because they were afraid this was a troll post.

Amalric+1 is a shitload better. The set bonus alone is 10 per piece giving it a 50 MAB advantage, but the whole set in HQ probably has 80-85 more MAB plus quite a bit more INT and the same or more macc.

NQ amalric is a better comparison, in which all but the head are equal or better for everything, with the small exception of the hands if you're strictly magic bursting (due to the +10 Magic burst on helios).
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2015-09-11 18:30:17  
I'm actually not sure if Amalric +1 would beat out Helios's MB damage + augments if we're strictly talking in the sense that augments are actually doing something for you, that being said if you actually did have the set, you should be capping mb damage elsewhere. I think you can get 40 via:

Helios Band (10)
Mizukage-no-Kubikazari (10)
Seshaw Cape (+1) (5/6)
Locus Ring (5)
Amalric Gages (+1) (5/6)
Static Earring (5)

In the case of NQ, I think the difference is a lot less apparent so you could probably get away with using helios augmented with MB damage over using the amalric set. I'm not sure if the smaller gains in stats from the NQ outdo the lost ~8MAB, 10ish INT (or twilight cape bonus) from using the above set
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-11 21:09:50  
Comparing the three sets, as closely as possible...

Full Helios Magic Burst with Hagondes Pants +1
ItemSet 337861
Helios augments are MAB/Mag Acc +20 and Magic Burst Damage +10 on each piece
Hagondes Pants augments are MAB+29

Total set stats
INT +144
M.Acc +109
MAB +205
Magic Burst Damage +40%
Magic Damage +11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NQ Amalric
ItemSet 337860
Helios Band Augment - M.Acc/MAB +20 / Magic Burst Dmg +10
Amalric Body Path D - MP+60, "Magic Attack Bonus"+20, "Fast Cast"+3
Amalric Gages Path D - INT+10, Magic Accuracy+15, "Magic Attack Bonus"+15
Amalric Slops Path D - MP+60, "Magic Attack Bonus"+20, Enmity-5
Amalric Nails Path A - MP+60, Magic Accuracy+15, "Magic Attack Bonus"+15

Total Set Stats
INT + 176
M.Acc +88
MAB +222
Magic Burst Damage +40%
Magic Damage +11
Magic Crit Damage +8%
Magic Crit Rate +5%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HQ Amalric
ItemSet 337862
Helios Band Augment - M.Acc/MAB +20 / Magic Burst Dmg +10
Amalric Body Path D - MP+80, "Magic Attack Bonus"+25, "Fast Cast"+4
Amalric Gages Path D - INT+12, Magic Accuracy+20, "Magic Attack Bonus"+20
Amalric Slops Path D - MP+80, "Magic Attack Bonus"+25, Enmity-6
Amalric Nails Path A - MP+80, Magic Accuracy+20, "Magic Attack Bonus"+20


Total Set Stats
INT +178
M.Acc +99
MAB +286 (counting the MAB+40 set bonus)
Magic Burst Damage +41%
Magic Damage +22
Magic Crit Damage +9%
Magic Crit Rate +5%
==============================================================

edit: i left the waist empty due to several options, from sea obis, MAB, or MAcc
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2015-09-11 22:26:41  
Just throwing in a reminder that MujinBand counts as Jobtrait and not against the 40% cap from items.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-11 22:44:52  
Yea, I forgot about that.

Comparing the three sets, Helios has M.Acc +21 over the NQ Amalric set, but the NQ Amalric should even out or pull ahead with INT +32 and MAB +17, plus Magic Crit Damage +8% and Magic Crit Rate +5% when it procs.

Then looking at the HQ set vs the Helios set, you lose M.Acc +10, for the gain of INT+34, MAB+81, and the Crit bonuses.


Edit: Forgot that Amalric Gages also have Elemental Magic Skill+ on them, which help with both damage and M.Acc, which would help pull the NQ set ahead of the Helios set

Edit2: I know this is a BLM forum. But if you are looking at this from a SCH point of view, you can get the JSE staff from Escha-Ru'Ann, and augment it. It natively has Magic Burst Damage+10% on it. This would allow you to go 5/5 on the Amalric set
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By cowardlybabooon 2015-09-12 11:20:55  
Did I miss something in the formula or isn't magic burst bonus the same potency as magic attack bonus? If I'm wrong then I need to get some new rings and earrings, but otherwise shouldn't we consider what we are replacing?
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-12 14:05:30  
Their potency isn't exactly the same, due to being calculated at different points in the damage formula.

Did a fast test as an example, examining three earrings,
Friomisi Earring : "Magic Atk. Bonus"+10 Enmity+2
Barkarole Earring : MP+25 INT+3 Magic Accuracy+8 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+8
Static Earring : MND+2 "Magic Def. Bonus"+2 Bonus damage added to magic burst

All other gear was identical. These are the results I got.

Friomisi Earring / Barkarole Earring
Fire IV - 29213

Static Earring / Barkarole Earring
Fire IV - 29395

Static Earring / Friomisi Earring
Fire IV - 29356
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By Cerberus.Lasareth 2015-09-12 14:10:14  
From my understanding it's a separate multiplier, which makes it considerably stronger than MAB during a burst at high levels of MAB.

E.g. If you have a total +200 MAB then adding 40% burst bonus is about equal to adding 80 MAB ( 1.4 * 200 = 280 )

cowardlybabooon you may be thinking of magical critical hit, which seems to be just more MAB.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-09-12 20:35:33  
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Friomisi Earring / Barkarole Earring
Fire IV - 29213

Static Earring / Barkarole Earring
Fire IV - 29395

Static Earring / Friomisi Earring
Fire IV - 29356
That's alot closer than I thought it would be. Always thought it was • Magic Burst Dmg → Weather/Day Bonus → MAB ± INT

Never put much thought into it other than that but seems most potent multiplier is Weather/Day and not Magic Burst Dmg itself.

Twight Cape > Seshaw no? Even if uncapped MBD.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-12 21:19:18  
Not sure. I'm at work tonight. I'll run that test tomorrow morning, Seshaw vs Twilight in MB situations.

This test was done on SCH, btw, using Immanence SCs > T4.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-09-12 21:31:27  
Appreciate it. Never did get Seshaw and now ya have me curious.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-12 22:26:25  
I remembered to bring my laptop to work and logged in for a fast test of Twilight Cape vs Seshaw Cape in Magic Bursting.

Fire IV using Seshaw Cape
Blanched Mandragora took 29395 damage

Fire IV using Twilight Cape
Blanched Mandragora took 28670 damage

Much greater difference than comparing Static Earring to Friomisi and Barkarole.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-09-12 23:19:56  
With single weather I'm assuming?
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-12 23:20:36  
Double weather. Did the test as SCH main
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-12 23:33:24  
Retest, using Tier 1 Firestorm

Seshaw Cape
Blanched Mandragora takes 27268 damage.

Twilight Cape
Blanched Mandragora takes 24915 damage.
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2015-09-13 03:51:25  
With the burst multiplier getting boosted awhile back, MBD trumps almost everything until the cap, as demonstrated by the earring and back tests Snprphnx performed. When using NQ Amalric, the most common line of thought it "But I lose so much INT and MAB from the pieces I have to swap for MBD now!" NQ Amalric, however, makes up for every INT or MAB you lose- and more, even. I'm just talking about NQ, and HQ absolutely blows it away. Amalric made almost every other nuking piece (for BLM) second rate.

On the topic of "How does magic damage work?", the BG page has a very good (albeit outdated) step-by-step description of how it's calculated. The early tests of new burst damage showed the old multiplier getting doubled (2.6 for 2-step, 2.7 for 3-step, etc). So, for example:

Say you would nuke something for 4000 normal (1600 base with 150 MAB). With no matching/conflicting weather, day, anything like that, MB off a 2-step SC with capped burst bonus (Job Points, Gifts, Trait, Gear) would look like this:
Code
floor(2.61(floor(1.89(floor(1600*2.6)))))
giving you a total of 20519 damage off that burst.

Let's change the example slightly and factor in matching day with obi. Let's still use 4000 base, same SC conditions, swapping out Twilight Cape and Seshaw:

Twilight Cape + Obi:
Code
floor(2.5(floor(1.15(floor(1.84(floor(1600*2.6))))))) = 22005
Seshaw + Obi:
Code
floor(2.61(floor(1.1(floor(1.89(floor(1600*2.6))))))) = 22571

In this case, and almost every case, Seshaw Cape wins when burst cap isn't met yet.

Nuking is all about your opponent and your surroundings. It's easy to sit there and say "Seshaw wins when I test this or that" but it really has to be more customized to the circumstances of the nuke. What makes Seshaw so powerful is the MAB+11 as well as the MBD+5%. If you don't need the MBD, Seshaw ends up losing to Twilight or even Toro, depending on the circumstance.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-13 04:44:19  
Yes. That's correct. I was not stating "In all cases, Seshaw will beat Twilight." If you are already capping Magic Burst Damage elsewhere, then you look at your options overall, and see which gives you the most MAB and INT, while still capping MBD.
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2015-09-13 20:03:00  
Kind of an aside from the main point of the topic, but I'm reading on the JP wiki that the MBD on the amalric gages is in the same category as mujin band so it should count above the 40 cap. Could anyone confirm that? (I don't have the gloves so can't do it myself)
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-09-13 20:18:15  
Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
Kind of an aside from the main point of the topic, but I'm reading on the JP wiki that the MBD on the amalric gages is in the same category as mujin band so it should count above the 40 cap. Could anyone confirm that? (I don't have the gloves so can't do it myself)

I don't have them either. That would be rather awesome if that's the case.
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2015-09-14 11:13:36  
My initial tests seem to confirm the theory of them being cap-breaking.
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By geigei 2015-09-14 11:27:06  
Bahamut.Tychefm said: »
My initial tests seem to confirm the theory of them being cap-breaking.

My recent test shows only mujin breaking cap.
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2015-09-14 11:39:02  
geigei said: »
Bahamut.Tychefm said: »
My initial tests seem to confirm the theory of them being cap-breaking.

My recent test shows only mujin breaking cap.

Well ***, need more tests then.
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By geigei 2015-09-14 11:48:26  
I could be wrong, i didnt looked specifically over gages but adding wretched coat over 45% didnt add dmg so i assume gages are part of the 40 cap.
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2015-09-15 06:16:43  
Amalric Hands found to have capbreaking +MB damage confirmed. Knew I wasn't going crazy:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108196-Random-Facts-Thread-Magic?p=6517163&viewfull=1#post6517163
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By geigei 2015-09-15 06:53:13  
Time to dust helios feet and lose static? looks like best option for blm.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-09-15 23:50:54  
That actually kinda sucks that those hands break cap ( for BLM ). Atleast atm until we receive another accessory with MBD+5~10% that means x2 Helios is required to reach max MBD. So can't use either body or feet Amalric. Before Seshaw covered but it's now bk to Twilight.

10% - Helios head
10% - Mizu. neck
5% - Static earring
5% - Locus ring
10% - Helios body or feet
_________________
Breaking Cap
5~6% Amalric hands
5% Mujin ring
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-09-16 00:04:23  
If we're considering HQ amalric, it's better to use HQ feet(assuming set bonus is active) and stay uncapped at 36% than to switch to helios feet/wretched coat.

On BLM, not counting cap exeeding JT/JP/Gifts/gear:

Thunder5 in Amalric nails +1 and Static earring(36% total MBD): 58578

Thunder5 in Helios and Friomisi earring(40% total MBD): 57926
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By Siren.Akson 2015-09-16 00:16:54  
With all do respect, I know only you even have such, but I think you are mistaken.

Losing Amalric+1 feet is minus 19 MAB 5 INT which includes the Set Bonus.

So that vs MBD+10% and no way Almaric+1 boots wins vs Helios.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-09-16 00:22:24  
Siren.Akson said: »
So that vs MBD+10% and no way Almaric+1 boots vs Helios wins.

It'd actually only be 4%. You can get 36% MBD while maintaining 4/5 amalric +1.

ItemSet 338001

I understand the rarity of amalric +1 at the moment, but that doesn't mean it should be totally excluded. Also, OP specifically asks about amalric +1.
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