The Great Debate 2

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The Great Debate 2
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 Odin.Karusan
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By Odin.Karusan 2009-09-06 21:17:47  
The idea of this thread is to discuss and debate topics in a mature environment with evidence to support ideas. We are a group of people covering multiple countries and beliefs, with differing age groups and worldly experiences, this is an opportunity to share your ideas on topics that comprise the world today.

Things to remember:
No attacks on other posters. If you have an opinion that is different to someone else, say so and provide evidence to support your opinion.
No one is wrong in their opinions, it's an opinion. If you post however please expect people to make responses to what you say. This means keep an open mind. If you're not prepared to have someone think differently to you maybe it's best if you don't post.
It's OK to have fun in this thread, just not at someone else's expense.

The last debate was a bit of a soft one to try and see how we would go with it. Most people had ideas on the subject and it was managed very well by all. This time it's going to be a bit more controvertial. While this is a debate, it's about explaining your way of thinking, not trying to manipulate others to think the way you do. I will repeat myself, do not ruin this thread for the rest of us.

Following the last successful debate on school uniforms comes this weeks topic from one of our posters:

Should same-sex marriages be allowed?
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:22:17  
Yes, what does a piece of paper saying two people are joined affect anyone else? I'm personally not gay and would never consider doing so, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have the same rights as anyone else.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:23:10  
Oh snap,

Ok well, Imho I think sure why not, 50% of men + women can't keep a marriage together, why not give them a shot, not like it effect's me personally, Let them be normal people(which they are) and let them be happy, and I was/am a church goer and believe in God, and have read the Bible and gone to a private christian school( I say this because many people that don't like this idea seem to do these things as well), they are people and thus should have the same inalienable rights as all other people in this country, the land of the free and the home of the brave.
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2009-09-06 21:24:08  
With that logic...that means I better be allowed to marry 3 girls +a boy...after all...how does me marring 4 people affect anyone else?
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:24:42  
Ludoggy said:
With that logic...that means I better be allowed to marry 3 girls +a boy...after all...how does me marring 4 people affect anyone else?


I said give them equal rights as us ;o

Edit**

And sure go ahead I personally don't care if you do or not >.>;;

Though I think you'd need to move to Montana.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-09-06 21:27:44  
That peice of paper gets you special considerations and tax write offs which does end up effecting everyone else. Also notice I'm not offering an opinion as I'm not really sure myself on this one. Just saying it will make a difference.
Also I like Lud's idea minus the boy part or really that many.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-09-06 21:28:45  
Rumaha said:
Ludoggy said:
With that logic...that means I better be allowed to marry 3 girls +a boy...after all...how does me marring 4 people affect anyone else?


I said give them equal rights as us ;o

But they do have the same rights as us. I'm straight and still can't marry a guy. And before you get into the whole that's not what they mean that was the point Lud was making.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:29:03  
Ludoggy said:
With that logic...that means I better be allowed to marry 3 girls +a boy...after all...how does me marring 4 people affect anyone else?

Gives more people tax benefits than should be really getting them.
 Seraph.Caiyuo
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By Seraph.Caiyuo 2009-09-06 21:29:14  
Perfect timing, dearest Eyeball-san!

I'll start by saying that I do think same-sex should be allowed, but understand that in a religious setting the word "marriage" feels like it's being marred or twisted because of personal beliefs that being gay is a sin. I do not agree with this, but understand it. It is very slowly being adopted by individual states in the US where it is more like recognition of gay partnerships as opposed to marriage, but it differs from state-to-state I believe.

Basically, my biggest gripe with the opposition to same-sex marriage is why they feel gay people should be treated as 2nd class citizens and not receive the same benefits as their heterosexual counterparts simply for being gay. Sure there's blind hate for the gay community for some, but I think in general this is just a social stereotype held because people are afraid to do something that may look bad in the eyes of their religion, despite what is best for their country as a whole. In this same way, because this is a political matter that is decided by elected officials, no one will risk their necks by voting for same-sex marriage if there's even an inkling of doubt that it'll cost them an election. That's the way I perceive it to be, anyway. How can we take ourselves seriously and as such expect others to when we treat a hefty percentage of our nation like lesser, undeserving people? It extends out to gay rights in general, with the most controversial in my eyes being "don't ask, don't tell" which I think is horribly shameful in our day and age.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:29:42  
Unless all those girls are crazy submissive, why would you want to deal with more then like 2 women ~_~
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2009-09-06 21:33:14  
Caiyuo said:
It is very slowly being adopted by individual states in the US where it is more like recognition of gay partnerships as opposed to marriage

Name 1 state that they made gay marriage legal by having the people vote, not by a few law makes or judges.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-09-06 21:33:47  
Rumaha said:
Unless all those girls are crazy submissive, why would you want to deal with more then like 2 women ~_~

Lol exactly why I said to many.
As far as why theres still that stimga aside from religon... well it wasn't that long ago that being gay was consider sexually deviant on par with child molestation. Theres still alot of people alive from that time. Also there might be that whole raising a kid thing blah blah who cares.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:34:15  
So if there were a state that voted the legal age of consent 12, that'd be it? The vote decides all?
 Seraph.Caiyuo
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By Seraph.Caiyuo 2009-09-06 21:34:59  
Ludoggy said:
Caiyuo said:
It is very slowly being adopted by individual states in the US where it is more like recognition of gay partnerships as opposed to marriage

Name 1 state that they made gay marriage legal by having the people vote, not by a few law makes or judges.

Caiyuo said:
In this same way, because this is a political matter that is decided by elected officials, no one will risk their necks by voting for same-sex marriage if there's even an inkling of doubt that it'll cost them an election.
Hey you with the eyeballs, use'em.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:35:15  
Ludoggy said:
Caiyuo said:
It is very slowly being adopted by individual states in the US where it is more like recognition of gay partnerships as opposed to marriage

Name 1 state that they made gay marriage legal by having the people vote, not by a few law makes or judges.


Nothing(as far as I know) actually happens through people voting personally because electing officials that are supposed to vote like we would, "saves time" then they don't vote like we would and do w/e they want. I think they should just do a direct democracy >.>;; Literally do what the country wants, not what you think they want.
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2009-09-06 21:35:31  
Vegetto said:
So if there were a state that voted the legal age of consent 12, that'd be it? The vote decides all?

That's kind of how a democracy works...
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:35:56  
In before "the bible says"
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2009-09-06 21:36:19  
Rumaha said:

Nothing(as far as I know) actually happens through people voting personally because electing officials that are supposed to vote like we would, "saves time" then they don't vote like we would and do w/e they want. I think they should just do a direct democracy >.>;; Literally do what the country wants, not what you think they want.

Thats why the people of California had to say twice they dont want gay marriage.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:37:27  
Vegetto said:
So if there were a state that voted the legal age of consent 12, that'd be it? The vote decides all?


If majority rules, in that state yes.

Vegetto said:
In before "the bible says"


I already did that and went against it ._.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:38:15  
The bible also said something about selling your daughter into slavery and something about screwing a sheep? Also, slavery is ok!

The bible says and there it must be so.

Edit: not directed at you in particularly, but just in general to anyone who wants to use that as their argument.
 Garuda.Littledarc
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By Garuda.Littledarc 2009-09-06 21:47:02  
personally i think they should be allowed to marry, call it a marriage, and have all the same rights.
 Midgardsormr.Tousou
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By Midgardsormr.Tousou 2009-09-06 21:47:38
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I'll try to keep this short...

0/2 so far on something I have a real standpoint on, but what does it really matter? I stand by marriage being a decision based on love, and wanting to be with one person for the rest of your life. Find a religious figure willing to perform the rites, and viola! You're married. Or is it more of the State recognition thing?
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:48:48  
Littledarc said:
personally i think they should be allowed to marry, call it a marriage, and have all the same rights.


Vegetto said:
Yes, what does a piece of paper saying two people are joined affect anyone else? I'm personally not gay and would never consider doing so, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have the same rights as anyone else.


Wut?

Edit: boo you edited. Before it said something about asking me why I think gays shouldn't be allowed to marry.
 Garuda.Littledarc
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By Garuda.Littledarc 2009-09-06 21:48:55  
i don't think marriage should automatically be religious. just saying...
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:50:11  
Littledarc said:
i don't think marriage should automatically be religious. just saying...

Did you read my first post?

And my bible post was being sarcastic, thus the mention of slavery, *** your sheep, and selling your daughter to being ok.
 Pandemonium.Aravol
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By Pandemonium.Aravol 2009-09-06 21:51:23  
I think, due to the split controversy of same sex marriage, that states should vote on this. If the state votes yes, then yes. If they vote no, then no.
In a decision like this , i think it should go to the majority to make it fair.
I am against it but i think it should be a fairly decided situation.
I dont know what gays feel or think so i try not to judge them for that.
Thats fair i guess.
 Garuda.Littledarc
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By Garuda.Littledarc 2009-09-06 21:51:23  
hey dude, some people actually believe every word in the bible should be followed...sorry if i didn't automatically think you were being sarcastic in a DEBATE forum.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-06 21:52:08  
Vegetto said:
The bible also said something about selling your daughter into slavery and something about screwing a sheep? Also, slavery is ok!

The bible says and there it must be so.

Edit: not directed at you in particularly, but just in general to anyone who wants to use that as their argument.


Oh, I was just contrasting with the bible cuz having read the majority of it and gone to a Christian School and believing that God is there, when I say that I think gays should get married they are like "Wut?, bible wut?" I try to base arguments based on what I feel and think, not based on what people think I am supposed to feel and think.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:52:19  
Littledarc said:
hey dude, some people actually believe every word in the bible should be followed...sorry if i didn't automatically think you were being sarcastic in a DEBATE forum.

now in most cases I don't expect everyone to read every post, but mine about gays should have the same rights as everyone else was the first damn reply lol.

Anyways its np.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-06 21:54:01  
Rumaha said:
Vegetto said:
The bible also said something about selling your daughter into slavery and something about screwing a sheep? Also, slavery is ok!

The bible says and there it must be so.

Edit: not directed at you in particularly, but just in general to anyone who wants to use that as their argument.


Oh, I was just contrasting with the bible cuz having read the majority of it and gone to a Christian School and believing that God is there, when I say that I think gays should get married they are like "Wut?, bible wut?" I try to base arguments based on what I feel and think, not based on what people think I am supposed to feel and think.


Ok, so I do understand that you are against gay marriage. You are not going to get married to another man that's for sure. But your standards for yourself, why do you feel the need to hold these same standards to everyone else? They're going to fk each other whether they're married or not, so what difference does it make, really?
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