Should I Make A Death Penalty Or Liberator?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Corsair » Should I make a Death Penalty or Liberator?
Should I make a Death Penalty or Liberator?
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By superzombie23 2016-07-12 03:19:14  
I've always been a DRK fan, but the game has kinda favored certain jobs over others as of late. I've always had fun on DRK, so naturally I'd lean towards the Lib, but guns do look fun as well. Do CORs always have to melee with Death Penalty for TP gain or can you still own stuff from being far away and just TP gain from shooting? Do CORs do good DPS from far away? Basically I'm saying if I have to be up close, I'd rather be a DRK and not a COR. But I'm looking forward to opinions here ranging from entry-end game to High-End Game content.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-07-12 03:57:42  
I wasn't aware anyone ever used a Liberator for anything.

DP is arguably the most powerful Mythic in the entire game and a solid DP COR can have entire strategies made around it to kill some of the harder bosses in the game.
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 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-07-12 04:31:49  
A highly simplified way of stating it would be this: Is the thing you're fighting weak to magic, particularly darkness? If the answer is yes, DP is the strongest weapon in the game.

To get more into specifics, each weapon has their advantages. Looking at DP first, Leaden Salute is an absurdly powerful WS. DP escalates this even further with the 30% bonus to Leaden damage from the mythic. It also drastically improves Quick Draw damage, another large part of COR's DPS. To my knowledge, melee COR is still a better DD than ranged COR. However, with a DP and AM3, you're looking at exceptionally powerful ranged damage. Combine this with triple shot which, with the corresponding gear and JPs, gives you a 77% chance of firing three bullets, and your DPS skyrockets.

I am not particularly learned on DRK at the moment, but I do know that Liberator is a very powerful weapon. However, it is held back by the fact that scythe WSs are quite a bit weaker than GS right now. Although scythe retains the ability to make 4-5 step darkness SCs, which is made trivial by AM3. Hopefully others can add onto the Liberator discussion, as I don't want to delve into information about which I'm not positive.

If you're looking for endgame, both jobs struggle to find a place there, although COR has a much better chance of getting a spot. Unfortunately, the absolute endgame right now (Reisenjima HELM/T4) requires very rigid setups, consisting of mages, support, and a tank. COR does have a place in these setups as buffers for your mages and to help boost damage with elemental shots, but they're not essential. SE has stated that they're investigating endgame content and possible solutions to job rigidity, so there may end up being a place for melees eventually.

If you're interested in participating in lower-tier content, even up to Reisenjima T3, both are quite viable. It's a cliche answer, but my advice is to take the job you most enjoy and build a mythic for it. In my opinion, a mythic has always been a symbol of your enjoyment of and dedication to one specific job.
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 Bahamut.Badstreak
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By Bahamut.Badstreak 2016-07-12 06:42:24  
Given the effort you should always make the weapon for the job you like the most. Personally I have Kenkonken.

But endgame as always requires specific jobs and for the time being melee is mostly dead. We've managed to melee some of the T3 Reisenjima but HELM tier 4 is utterly insane it's unlikely they will be meleed.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 07:55:44  
If you want to do good DPS from far away look at ranger. If you want to be roll *** play cor. COR is a support DPS it can do decent dps, much like a GEO can in the right circumstances but this best mythic in the game nonsense people are saying makes me roll my eyes. COR is highly gimped in terms of accuracy, attack, tp gain, firing speed (rapid shot and snapshot are multiplicative), job abilities (no velocity shot, and only sharpshot and barrage if sub rng and 1 hours are support abilities not damage abilities, triple shot is a 5 min cooldown ability, double shot is a 3 min cooldown ability and you can get 1k tp with just WS -> 2 ranged attacks so triple shot is an inferior job ability), gear (no Amini Caban +1 [% based attack boost and snapshot] or Arcadian Beret +1 [equivalent of 27 STP per shot] and instead gets things for rolls and support capabilties), Job traits (no dead aim, lower tiers of trueshot, recycle, no conserve tp, no accuracy bonus and instead gets resist traits), merits (no snapshot or rapid shot and merits mostly deal with it's support capabilities), job points (a large chunk goes to support abilities for COR, COR gets 20 acc but ranger gets 40 attack, 80 while sharpshot is active), gifts (COR gets 36 ranged attack and ranged acc from gifts, RNG gets 60 to both), COR has no hate control abilities so if it does start dealing good damage, it can pull hate and die while RNG gets decoy shot, camoflauge, and relic gun as options (both get wildfire but it's not as much hate control lessening the amount of hate it gets), and lastly COR is held back by gear (Even if you melee your tp gain will be extremely hard pressed to match what 3 hit ranger can do these days, a lot of the time it's faster than blue cdc spam and COR has nothing to help it melee tp outside rolls and gear and can't keep up with melee jobs tping either) and that includes ranged weapon selection (Gun has the lowest range for taking advantage of trueshot and not being penalized for distance correction, making you stand just outside melee range to use it exposing you to most AoE moves while using it. Ranger can stay outside of many aoe ranges with both bows and xbows while still getting no penalty to either ranged attack and ranged accuracy and benefiting from about 19% bonus damage for being the proper distance from trueshot that applies to physical ws). And lastly, you have selection of ranged weapons. COR can only use guns, the limits of which I explained for auto attacking, but it is also limited by weaponskill selection. Jishnu's is a better WS than Last Stand on anything you can make a setup for making it hit well (which with RNG accuracy is everything it's just a matter of how much support you need and gear, one exception perhaps the master trial). Speaking of the master trial, the one win I've seen the COR just stood there after rolling, while the rangers did the work. It's a fight limited to 6 players and the accuracy requirements are extremely high.

I also play a COR, but it's to support, as a support DPS sometimes I get to DPS too but it's rare. Some people will take COR to an extreme gear level, and do good dps, compared to undergeared players on other jobs even beat them. But an extremely well geared DD job will out DPS COR very easily, the one boost it has over other jobs in a pure DPS standpoint is it's rolls, but even hunter's roll itself doesn't make up the difference in ranged accuracy for example that ranger gets just for being ranger, over COR (not even close, hunters roll is max 65 acc, ranger gets 73 from traits, sharpshot boosted by gear, and relic bow and gun options. Mythic aftermath for accuracy is max 50, the ranger relic gun and ammo combo have 90 ranged accuracy and the bow with aftermath and ammo has 125 accuracy, and the ranger mythic gets 50 ranged acc over death penalty before including the extra 50 you can get from aftermath). COR is tied to its rolls, it's not a primary DD, though on low enough content and right setups it can serve as one if well geared the same as a GEO, BRD, RDM, RUN can do the same thing. The only thing COR has they don't is a very big magical WS, but they ahve to be creative in how to come up with TP over Ranger or other jobs.

If you're thinking of doing DP for endgame and COR because of endgame then I'd re-examine that choice. Mythic gun will mostly just up your quickdraw damage on a few mobs (since quickdraw does no damage with dark shot and many mobs are death setup), and most LS would rather have the COR hold WS while SCH reliably self skillchains and not having to wait on them to put a separate set of rolls on themself just to be able to have tp at all. What I'm saying is, endgame COR is there for rolls and the support capabilities of quickdraw (increase int down on burn, dispel, and 25% damage boost from empy feet to next damage source of same element on the first nuke of a burst). There will be very few situations you'll even get to use it unless your LS is willing to work around all that with you and imo at least the payoff wouldn't be worth it, while you're putting a 2nd set of rolls on yourself for regain and misers, sch will prob be self chaining anyway. COR is a fine support if you like gambling for your buffs, but even it's buffing capabilities is tedious imo. Most jobs cast a buff and it's on but COR can spend up to 3 minutes for one roll (I maintain 11's on all rolls as long as there is time). The only other thing COR brings is job ability resets and it is the only job in the game that can do that so it is very good at it. To be perfectly honest, not a fan of COR, but acknowledge its usefulness as support. Both my RNG and SMN want one in party to maximize their potential. My THF doesn't really care though SAM + Chaos is nice. If doing endgame actually get all your roll gear, I get really tired of seeing COR that are like look at my bad leaden salute damage and then have 6 min roll duration. You can have 9.5 min rolls now and always have 11s play your job right D: Worse is COR that don't even know you can do things like keep 11's up all the time, or clear buffs off yourself to reroll the same buff on different people by busting another roll intentionally while you have an 11 already active, or do things like get ASA legs or even have an idle DT set so you aren't a liability when things go wrong. For some reason most COR only care about damage, and say they want to play COR for endgame, and have their priorities *** backwards if they want to do endgame on COR. You're there for strong rolls (so get those 11s, rolls distance, potency, duration and recast gear and keep the 11s going), quickdraw (get empy feet and use them), job ability resets (get your JA gear and Job points), and to not be a liability (come able to take care of yourself, whm is busy enough use DT sets full time, use -enmity gear in your job abilities so you don't pull hate cor spams a ton of job abilities and job abilities have a lot of CE). These are the things you should worry about as endgame cor, not your rarely if ever used magical ws. If you're not picking cor for endgame then do whatever you want, but there's cheaper ways to obtain similar damage than DP on low end content.
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By Ramyrez 2016-07-12 08:10:15  
"Yes."
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By Afania 2016-07-12 12:14:46  
I'm going to sound like an *** but it has to be done. If you aren't using leaden salute darkness SC in endgame you are doing wrong.



Why do 100k dmg per burst when you can do 200k instead.....or 300k per burst with cor + blm.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 12:26:30  
Well I'm glad that works for you and I'm not saying it can't be done but it's definitely not the norm and does take more coordination. Also Afania you are a career COR this is kinda your thing :P I still don't think making mythic for endgame cor is the right way to go about it or the right priority though. Most bring you for rolls and job ability resets. That's some nice leaden tho :D I'm assuming you either spam tp wings or have to tact roll yourself after doing casters or warlocks then wizards so wizards stays on yourself while you have tact roll yes? I'm also going to guess that's more a 3k tp leaden than a 1k.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-07-12 12:38:57  
Might want to double check your roll values in that wall of text.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 12:45:26  
Can add the roll bonus in for +5 more acc. Whoopdy doo >.> It already assumes you have RNG in party or you get lucky with your gear that has a change to include it even if there isn't one. But yes, 70 max.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-07-12 12:49:22  
I don't think you understand how rolls bonuses work. It's similar to how +Geomancy works.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 12:56:07  
What is the point of cherry picking one point? +25 isn't going to make a difference in my statement, or points.
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By Ramyrez 2016-07-12 13:00:28  
Verda said: »
What is the point of cherry picking one point? +25 isn't going to make a difference in my statement, or points.

...clearly you're new to the internet.

Pedantry is an inescapable force. It is the gravity of the internet.
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By Afania 2016-07-12 13:03:03  
Verda said: »
Well I'm glad that works for you and I'm not saying it can't be done but it's definitely not the norm and does take more coordination. Also Afania you are a career COR this is kinda your thing :P I still don't think making mythic for endgame cor is the right way to go about it or the right priority though. Most bring you for rolls and job ability resets. That's some nice leaden tho :D I'm assuming you either spam tp wings or have to tact roll yourself after doing casters or warlocks then wizards so wizards stays on yourself while you have tact roll yes? I'm also going to guess that's more a 3k tp leaden than a 1k.


It is 3k yes, 3k is also *** easy to get since you can start with 3k and have pt member do wing rotations. Reisen T3 can't survive more than a couple of 200k to 300k sc, by the time you run out of wings it's already dead. If you go lowman, first burst can probably push below 50% hp.

Considering people make Idris for endgame all the time, or bandwagon almace which isn't used in endgame, I'm surprised DP isn't being bandwagon more.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-07-12 13:06:11  
But isn't the point that was trying to be made, which is kind of being obscured: that DP outside of DPS doesn't do much to enhance the support role aspect of the job, which is the main reason people take a COR.


That's not discounting the ridiculous #s DP pumps out with LS.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 13:10:03  
It is often used to weaken another's statement or view without having to actually reply to it. It's not new to the internet it's existed forever. My question to Kyte was whether he was just trying to help correct for the point of accuracy, or if he had other reasons, and a valid question. The internet or how long I've been on it have nothing to do with anything. Pedantry is easy, if used for that effect, but still dissapointing. If Kyte just likes accuracy though then I'm for that even appreciate him pointing it out, thank you Kyte.

Afania said: »
It is 3k yes, 3k is also *** easy to get since you can start with 3k and have pt member do wing rotations. Reisen T3 can't survive more than a couple of 200k to 300k sc, by the time you run out of wings it's already dead. If you go lowman, first burst can probably push below 50% hp.

Considering people make Idris for endgame all the time, or bandwagon almace which isn't used in endgame, I'm surprised DP isn't being bandwagon more.

That's cool Afania, my last question then is this viable on t4 as well? Albumen, Teles, WoC, and Schah would be the big bads you'd use death on, and before the fight is over those mobs run out of MP for aspir. When this happens, spamming TP wings for the BLM is one way you keep going. So my question is have you used it on those and if so what do you do for MP once the mobs run out of mp?
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-07-12 13:11:05  
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
But isn't the point that was trying to be made, which is kind of being obscured: that DP outside of DPS doesn't do much to enhance the support role aspect of the job, which is the main reason people take a COR.

Maybe not, but the COR isn't giving up any roll functionality by using DP, either. The extra damage is pure gravy, which is what makes it so good. If there were a roll potency gun, it'd be a different story.

That said, I agree that if you're going to make a mythic, you should make the mythic for the job you want to play. It's simply too large a personal undertaking to allow metagame min-maxing (which can always change, of course) to supersede what you actually like playing.

Quote:
Considering people make Idris for endgame all the time, or bandwagon almace which isn't used in endgame, I'm surprised DP isn't being bandwagon more.

People make Almace because BLU is a powerful job that performs well in most of the content people end up doing for fun. DP is more useful for harder stuff, but since the COR is never taking the lead in that content the persona payoff for making it is much less satisfying.

I never use my DNC in real endgame stuff but I have no regrets about AG'ing a Terpsichore because in the wide variety of events I DO use DNC in, it has a huge impact, and is a lot of fun.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 13:16:29  
There is a roll duration gun, compensator, it's not potency as you said but the less you have to reroll, the longer potent rolls stay in effect. It can also be a potency issue for Crooked Cards. With all duration gear you're very close to the recast of Crooked Cards and can use its bonus. Otherwise, I agree with you Scaevola.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-07-12 13:20:14  
Verda said: »
It is often used to weaken another's statement or view without having to actually reply to it. It's not new to the internet it's existed forever. My question to Kyte was whether he was just trying to help correct for the point of accuracy, or if he had other reasons, and a valid question. The internet or how long I've been on it have nothing to do with anything. Pedantry is easy, if used for that effect, but still dissapointing. If Kyte just likes accuracy though then I'm for that even appreciate him pointing it out, thank you Kyte.

The latter. You cared enough about exact accuracy values enough to list everything out so evidently they did matter to you.
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By Darksparksnot 2016-07-12 13:22:23  
Dis cor vs rng thing is getting old.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 13:25:27  
Darksparksnot said: »
Dis constant job balance discussion for 14 years is getting old

FTFY
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2016-07-12 13:41:51  
Verda said: »
There is a roll duration gun, compensator, it's not potency as you said but the less you have to reroll, the longer potent rolls stay in effect. It can also be a potency issue for Crooked Cards. With all duration gear you're very close to the recast of Crooked Cards and can use its bonus. Otherwise, I agree with you Scaevola.

Yeah, Compensator came to mind, but you're using that as a macro piece pre-fight, right? I mean, with all the gear you're looking at 8 and a half minute rolls; nobody's going to sit with a lame gun like Compensator that long even if they have to reset TP to reapply rolls when they run out.
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By eliroo 2016-07-12 14:31:01  
Can I chime in on this heated discussion to discuss the viablility of Armageddon?

How well does it fair as a Empyrean weapon and is it better than Death Penalty in some aspects?
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-07-12 14:34:14  
Laeden Salute is just so powerful of a magic weaponskill that Wildfire with Armageddon can't compare/compete with Death Penalty's 30% boost?
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-07-12 15:21:15  
Armageddon does have benefits that DP does not provide. Firstly, it has much higher base damage, making it a better gun for Last Stand. The 50 AGI also contributes approximately 37 ranged accuracy, of which DP has none. To my understanding, Armageddon and Fomalhaut are quite close for the second best Leaden Salute gun. They both also have the advantage of being used on RNG as well as COR.

Wildfire is not a bad WS. With good gear, it's actually quite competitive. But on anything that doesn't resist darkness, Leaden just outshines it. 100% AGI mod against 60%, and Leaden damage scales exceptionally well with TP, where Wildfire has an enmity- effect for TP scaling. Leaden also has access to powerful affinity based items, Pixie +1 and Archon ring, where Wildfire does not outside of elemental staves.

Both weaponskills have their uses, but if all things are equal, Leaden will come out on top.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-07-12 16:25:57  
I had to make this choice last year. In the end it had to be Lib, and I'm going to CP with it real soon. Get a Liberator, it's too much fun.
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By Afania 2016-07-12 16:59:20  
eliroo said: »
Can I chime in on this heated discussion to discuss the viablility of Armageddon?

How well does it fair as a Empyrean weapon and is it better than Death Penalty in some aspects?

Arma excels at mid tier content when extra racc helps tp generation, it's also useful when you fight NM that needs fire dmg. Ranged dps from am3 also matters in such content so arma may perform better.

But if you do high lv content with blm death rotations, dp is the way to go. Leaden just works well with death mb. It's both dark elemental so accession Voidstorm works on both blm and cor, so does gambit. Death gains extra mb bonus from extra sc step if not hitting dmg cap. Both blm and cor benefits from regain roll, and cor can keep doing high dmg sc with no cool down until pt run out of wings. IMO leaden darkness sc mb death increase the "dmg cap" of every sc so you're not capped at 100k dmg per blm.

I'm not here saying people should or should not build this or that mythic. But IMO DP is a decent end game weapon.
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-07-12 20:37:03  
Verda said: »
Some people will take COR to an extreme gear level, and do good dps, compared to undergeared players on other jobs even beat them. But an extremely well geared DD job will out DPS COR very easily

you must not play with many good cors, as a main cor i have consistently done far more dmg than every average player i end up with, just the other day i was helping a friend mess around in lowman delve with his AG relic Gax war, in the end he was only aprox 5-10% higher than i was in total dmg(45%ish vs 55%ish) and all i had was molybdosis. just like how every job has its places where it shines cor has its moments, comming into a cor thread to say cor just does its rolls and sits there sounds more like a troll( or you really shouldn't be playing it). Cor is not like geo, there are no setups i know of where Geo is your main DD, however i have been THE main DD in many events including a SR run where i did aprox 80-90% of the total dmg.
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By FaeQueenCory 2016-07-12 21:11:58  
Sylph.Oraen said: »
Armageddon does have benefits that DP does not provide. Firstly, it has much higher base damage, making it a better gun for Last Stand. The 50 AGI also contributes approximately 37 ranged accuracy, of which DP has none. To my understanding, Armageddon and Fomalhaut are quite close for the second best Leaden Salute gun. They both also have the advantage of being used on RNG as well as COR.

Wildfire is not a bad WS. With good gear, it's actually quite competitive. But on anything that doesn't resist darkness, Leaden just outshines it. 100% AGI mod against 60%, and Leaden damage scales exceptionally well with TP, where Wildfire has an enmity- effect for TP scaling. Leaden also has access to powerful affinity based items, Pixie +1 and Archon ring, where Wildfire does not outside of elemental staves.

Both weaponskills have their uses, but if all things are equal, Leaden will come out on top.
One other thing to point out, all ranged magic WSs are weird.
You see, in WS damage formula there's a Δstat term. For physical it's always what we call ƒSTR (hence why stacking STR in STR based WSs is triple goodness).
For magic, with few exception, it's always some form of ƒINT.
Except for ranged magical WSs.
For some ungodly reason SE decided those should be pAGI-tINT.
Meaning that adding AGI for WSs like Wildfire and Leaden Salute is doubly effective. (As they don't benefit from any additional acc as they are magical.)

Meaning that Armageddon can quite potentially out do Death Penalty.
At least in their "121" forms.
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Laeden Salute is just so powerful of a magic weaponskill that Wildfire with Armageddon can't compare/compete with Death Penalty's 30% boost?
Higher base damage AND +50 AGI... That's a massive boost to Leaden Salute (screw Wildfire, ain't no use except for fire damage and AM).
I dare say that that can quite likely give you better numbers than the 30% DP gives. (Or at the VERY least so comparable that it's the same.)
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-07-12 21:42:36  
FaeQueenCory said: »

Meaning that Armageddon can quite potentially out do Death Penalty.
At least in their "121" forms.

Higher base damage AND +50 AGI... That's a massive boost to Leaden Salute (screw Wildfire, ain't no use except for fire damage and AM).
I dare say that that can quite likely give you better numbers than the 30% DP gives. (Or at the VERY least so comparable that it's the same.)

50 Agi is a good boost but base dmg means nothing for magical WSs so its more likely (will have to check sheets for different builds) DP Salute will win.
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