Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Warrior » Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!
Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!
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 Bismarck.Vize
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By Bismarck.Vize 2019-04-30 03:05:00  
I already have one of these and am 1/3 of the way to the other.

Discuss in your opinion which you like better and why, for me at the moment i really like the white damage from my emp when its up .
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 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-30 03:39:10  
If you're doing something that requires SCing, such as Apex or maybe some of the HTBP, then you would want to use Aeonic.

For content with lots of Amnesia, or where you can't SC easily (WS spam, or even MBs), you want Empy.

In most situations, the Empy will be more useful due to white Dmg boost. For longer fights, Empy is better. For high burst damage (due to TP bonus), I tend to find Aeonic better. [Such as on Ou]. So it is really situational.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 03:46:22  
Both would be probably used in different scenario. Chango when you need WS frequency and self SC or SC in general. Ukon when you don't need WS frequency, you might be afraid of being animation locked and/or with possible amnesia treat.

Also Chango is very popular and you can find a lot of testimony from people using it. Ukon is not. I dont think we even know whats the optimal way of using Ukon for DPS, because imo its white damage focus TP gear with AM3 and holding TP for 2000+ Upheavals, but I dont have time to calculate it or weapon to check it in practice. I was only calculating white damage potential of Ukon and it's on par or above max stacked Impetus Veret AM3 monk and way above if you use Blood Rage, so its safe to say it's highest white damage setup in game.
 Asura.Yojimmbo
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By Asura.Yojimmbo 2019-04-30 05:00:24  
Naegling
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2019-04-30 05:25:50  
Bravura!
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-30 06:43:27  
Odin.Senaki said: »
In most situations, the Empy will be more useful due to white Dmg boost.

No.

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Bismarck.Vize said: »
I already have one of these and am 1/3 of the way to the other.

Discuss in your opinion which you like better and why, for me at the moment i really like the white damage from my emp when its up .

R15 Chango is currently the best DPS weapon WAR has right now followed by Shining One and Dolichenus. Ukons is bad because the WS it's attached to is bad and the stat bonus it has doesn't help the our best GAXE WS anyway.
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By Taint 2019-04-30 08:03:13  
WARs WS frequency really leans towards Chango as well. Every WS benefits from the TP bonus and Upheaval gains 10% going to Rank15.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-30 09:09:03  
Asura.Saevel said: »
R15 Chango is currently the best DPS weapon WAR has right now followed by Shining One and Dolichenus.

Damn, really? I have both Ambu weapons but haven't used either on WAR. Is it really THAT good, better than other R15 REMA? I knew it was good, but didn't think by that much.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2019-04-30 09:11:50  
bronze axe +1

/discussion
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-30 09:20:38  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
R15 Chango is currently the best DPS weapon WAR has right now followed by Shining One and Dolichenus.

Damn, really? I have both Ambu weapons but haven't used either on WAR. Is it really THAT good, better than other R15 REMA? I knew it was good, but didn't think by that much.

Ukon sucks, Conq isn't much better and Bravura is situational, no exactly that much to be better then. Shining One is about WS spamming Impulse Drive at 1500 (1750 with Moonshade) or higher. Dolichenus is stupid powerful but requires a different TP set then most will have.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 09:22:26  
Taint said: »
WARs WS frequency really leans towards Chango as well. Every WS benefits from the TP bonus and Upheaval gains 10% going to Rank15.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Ukons is bad because the WS it's attached to is bad

I understand this logic, but unless I got proven wrong, by either math or practical tests (video or screens in case of Saevel, because he is biased too much in this topic), I will disagree.

On papper MNK highest DPS with Impetus down comes from holding TP to 2500 and WSing with Raging Fists. It's because white damage is that high, damage from WS at 1000TP is that low and damage from WS at 2500TP is that high. It's not because one of those, but all of those.

Now Ukonvasara WAR is very similar. The white damage with AM3 is even higher, the WS at 1000TP is low damage and WS at 2500 (Upheaval) is high damage. That would logically suggest that Ukonvasara WAR should be played like that for optimal DPS and every time it got compared to other options, it was with spamming Ukko's Fury in mind, which is not optimal and comes from stereotype that higher WS frequency is always better no matter what, when it actually matters what.
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 Asura.Grievance
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By Asura.Grievance 2019-04-30 09:28:00  
Have access to both r15. My chango hands down beats the uko everytime.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 09:32:37  
Asura.Grievance said: »
Have access to both r15. My chango hands down beats the uko everytime.

Played like I described? 3000TP Ukko for AM3, then Upheavals at close to 2500TP and white damage focused TP set with 100%DA with fighter roll and not counting skillchain damage?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-30 09:37:16  
Asura.Saevel said: »
but requires a different TP set then most will have

Meaning? HQ Emicho Hands(DW)/Body is the only pieces I would imagine people wouldn't have for Dolich, unless you're referring to Digirbalag?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-30 10:34:12  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
but requires a different TP set then most will have

Meaning? HQ Emicho Hands(DW)/Body is the only pieces I would imagine people wouldn't have for Dolich, unless you're referring to Digirbalag?

Needs to be augmented along with a Suppa. Lately lots of people don't have Suppa since they came back and never bothered to do DM2 for it. The Digi needs decent augments, thankfully Decimation WS set is basically a Resolution set. Also you really want Fighter's Roll as it will let you hit 100% DA in your WS set and that ends up with hilarious results.
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By Taint 2019-04-30 11:09:38  
SimonSes said: »
Asura.Grievance said: »
Have access to both r15. My chango hands down beats the uko everytime.

Played like I described? 3000TP Ukko for AM3, then Upheavals at close to 2500TP and white damage focused TP set with 100%DA with fighter roll and not counting skillchain damage?


The WS frequency and warcry skew this back in favor Chango.

MNK leans on white damage more, very different than WAR rocking a 5hit with 100% DA.

Upheaval is also your best WS, where as MNK it varies based on impetus but it’s never SS. It’s a great thought but both jobs are played very differently.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-30 11:14:17  
"White damage" focused WAR is complete fail sauce, the job does far too much damage with it's WS. If you want a job that does great melee damage but has absolutely terrible WS damage, then switch to MNK.
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By Afania 2019-04-30 11:40:49  
Asura.Grievance said: »
Have access to both r15. My chango hands down beats the uko everytime.


Can you make a video with equipviewer and scoreboard on like Ejiins shining one tests? That would be more valuable data than 2 people pop on the forum and made a statement about it.

I do think Chango will do more dps in most of the situation since we often play DD by engage with a TP set post on forums and WS spam at 1000 tp. But that isn't the only playstyle/situation ever available in game.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 11:51:19  
Taint said: »
SimonSes said: »
Asura.Grievance said: »
Have access to both r15. My chango hands down beats the uko everytime.

Played like I described? 3000TP Ukko for AM3, then Upheavals at close to 2500TP and white damage focused TP set with 100%DA with fighter roll and not counting skillchain damage?


The WS frequency and warcry skew this back in favor Chango.

MNK leans on white damage more, very different than WAR rocking a 5hit with 100% DA.

Upheaval is also your best WS, where as MNK it varies based on impetus but it’s never SS. It’s a great thought but both jobs are played very differently.

Logical, but that stereotypes. You can easily take off stp and replac eit with crit damage and rate and make WAR more white dmage focused. Again Ukon WAR ahs higher white damage per sec than Impetus MNK. It has same or lower WS dmg at 1000TP but it scales very nice and does way better at 2000+ TP.

I'm not saying that Ukon played like that is the best thing ever, but all I hear in response is guessing, similar to mine.

Blood Rage counters Warcry btw and skews damage back to melee (beside Shining One setup).

Few things I did math out:
1. White dps with AM3/fighter roll/capped pdif on Ukon with 20 fSTR (far from cap) and floored ddex is around 5900
2. This goes up to 7200 with Blood Rage.

That's only melee DPS, not including Upheavals at 2500TP.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-04-30 11:59:42  
DA 100
CHR - 98
CHD - 27
DAD - 31
DAA - 20

Crit - 399*4.95*.98*1.27*2 = 4916
Crit DA - 419*4.95*.98*1.27*2*1.31 = 6763
No Crit - 399*3.95*2*.02 = 63
No Crit DA - 419*3.95*2*1.31*.02 = 86
Average Damage/Round = 11828

Fighter/Rogues Roll
Blood Rage
Floored dDex
Quickly pieced together set, room for optimization.

I don't care to go into things much deeper, but that isn't fail sauce white damage.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 12:07:41  
Asura.Veikur said: »
DA 100
CHR - 98
CHD - 27
DAD - 51

Crit - 399*4.95*.98*1.27*2 = 4916
Crit DA - 399*4.95*.98*1.27*2*1.51 = 7423
No Crit - 399*3.95*2*.02 = 63
No Crit DA - 399*3.95*2*1.51*.02 = 95
Average Damage/Round = 12497

Fighter/Rogues Roll
Blood Rage
Floored dDex
Quickly pieced together set, room for optimization.

I don't care to go into things much deeper, but that isn't fail sauce white damage.

Rogue roll is going a little overboard I guess, but I guess it's valid if people already use it for Shining One for example. Btw for white damage on WAR you would use relic +3 legs and Ambuscade cape. That's a total of +31% double attack damage and since we have 100% DA, that's +31% white damage (well almost because I would still use Niqmaddu ring and maybe Hetairoi ring, so some rounds would not be DA)
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-04-30 12:09:33  
I'm aware. I misread the DA JP effect though, adjusted my post to reflect that.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 12:31:22  
Asura.Veikur said: »
I'm aware. I misread the DA JP effect though, adjusted my post to reflect that.

Hmm but I think you multiply just one hit with this 31% bonus? It works for both swings.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-30 13:24:08  
"double attack+" is only on the second attack of a double attack just like triple attack+ is only on the 2nd and 3rd.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 13:34:53  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
"double attack+" is only on the second attack of a double attack just like triple attack+ is only on the 2nd and 3rd.

Its not true for both cape, legs and not even for empy augment.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-30 13:47:55  
Guess bg says its both. nevermind then.
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By SimonSes 2019-04-30 14:03:02  
Quote:
Enhances Double Attack damage by 5% (on both swings).
This line on bg wiki on relic legs is unchanged since 2014

This link that shows double damage augment on empy set workign for both swings is from 2006.

Now augment on empy THF onyl works for 2nd and 3rd hit, but I can't find anything conclusive about "triple attack" damage+

So if you apply that for Veikur calculations, we are getting 8000 DPS with just white damage.

This is the set that I would use for TP if I would want some fun with Ukon:

ItemSet 365744

I would replace body to relic+3 (or valorous feet with 5% crit damage and acc) if I would need more acc/att.
This set will also be way better with +3 empy.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-04-30 16:26:49  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
but requires a different TP set then most will have

Meaning? HQ Emicho Hands(DW)/Body is the only pieces I would imagine people wouldn't have for Dolich, unless you're referring to Digirbalag?

Needs to be augmented along with a Suppa. Lately lots of people don't have Suppa since they came back and never bothered to do DM2 for it. The Digi needs decent augments, thankfully Decimation WS set is basically a Resolution set. Also you really want Fighter's Roll as it will let you hit 100% DA in your WS set and that ends up with hilarious results.

No reason not to pick up a Suppa. The BCNM is a joke.

IIRC they even changed the conditions on full moon fountain filling up. You no longer need clear weather iirc. Just need to keep an eye on the moonphase.

If somebody can put effort into Ambuscade and obtaining/farming gil for a pulse weapon; they can go to the fountain at the right time and get the KI.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-04-30 16:53:02  
Perhaps I'm overlooking something, and agreed that it's no big ask to say people can go get a Suppa...

But why would you need Suppa for DW axe? /NIN (w/ capped gear/magical haste) needs 11 DW to hit a perfect 80.0% delay reduction. Reiki Yotai (DW+7) and Eabani Earring (DW+4), right?

I'm not a person who throws a fit over overcapping DW by 1% and whatever miniscule TP/hit loss that entails, so I mean, Suppa's also fine if you can't get Eabani to drop. But if you can, why not use the choice that gives you perfectly capped delay reduction, HP+45, and some bonus Meva? If for some reason you wanted a DW sword build instead of Fencer (IDK why you would, but if you did), I could see Suppa's sword skill being worth choosing over Eabani and the slightly overcapped DW though.
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By Lili 2019-04-30 16:57:38  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
But why would you need Suppa for DW axe? /NIN (w/ capped gear/magical haste) needs 11 DW to hit a perfect 80.0% delay reduction. Reiki Yotai (DW+7) and Eabani Earring (DW+4), right?

Thing is, losing Ioskeha +1 hurts a ton. Hence why Suppa + Emicho hands (path D have DW 6) is the best option. WAR does not have exceptionally good hand options, anyway. Skill is useless and not a factor at all.
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