Pachipachio V Hagun

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Pachipachio v Hagun
Pachipachio v Hagun
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 07:52:43  
Hi guys, my first topic in here ^^

Just picked myself up a Pachipachio and am definitley not disappointed ^^ So far from the days use i've had it has risen above my expectations and I feel this GKT is very highly underrated, before today i had been led to believe that is was a piece of ***but now am 100% sure it isn't.

Anyone else converted to Pachi from Hagun? and if so what are your thoughts? I personally never thought i'd get rid of my hagun, but this puppy has changed my mind. If you got full GKT/Overwhelm merits i highly recommend making an effort to secure yourself one of these ^^ STR merits help too obviously =)

Been testing on numerous things, greater colibri, lesser colibri, sea mobs, mamools etc, and Pachipachio seems to come out on top everytime, ws dmg is almost the same, DoT dmg pachi wins out on and Tachi: Rana damage is significantly higher with Pachi also, have yet to try on HNM or Gods yet but if anyone else has done testing i'd like to hear what results you have gotten, parse results be nice to if anyone has done it, i play on xbox so i can't test by parser myself.

Oh did i mention you can have a true 5 hit setup with Pachi too ^^? <3
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 07:55:22  
Quote:
Been testing on numerous things, greater colibri, lesser colibri, sea mobs, mamools etc, and Pachipachio comes out on top everytime, ws dmg is almost the same


Quote:
i play on xbox so i can't test by parser myself.


lol
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 07:57:59  
Doesn't take a genius or math wiz to notice higher numbers on melee hits and ws numbers.... lol, use ya head >.>

Hence why i asked if anyone had parsed Pachi vs Hagun as i couldn't, was just saying from what i have noticed it comes out on top, I never said it was conclusive evidence lol
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-10-28 07:59:10  
I've yet to hear it ws as high as hagun except on rana being multihit and all. The numbers also support hagun doing a bit more on the others. However yes getting to ws a hit earlier is nice. Just about every sam I know ig with one loves it. And I know one that can 3 step light with it without having to hope double attack happens or some crap with just meditate and sekki.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 07:59:48  
"Oh did i mention you can have a true 5 hit setup with Pachi too ^^? <3"
True 5hit on rindomaru is better than Pachi. Same xhit build, less delay and more acc on rindo and possibility of ws dmg+% on rindo as well (and even that loses to hagun)

A) Hagun
B) If you're not going to listen to A, at least use Rindo.
C) Pachi is ***
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:01:12  
Yeah, my friend took out a Marid in 10 seconds by doing 3 step light with his Pachi, mouth was on the floor, he did it so easily lol

Vegetto again, figures the know it all would be trolling the forums...as usual.

I have a 5 hit rindo mate, and it is ***. its got Stp+15 Acc+5 ws dmg+4%

It rarely done better than hagun, RARELY.
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:01:20  
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Doesn't take a genius or math wiz to notice higher numbers on melee hits and ws numbers.... lol, use ya head


HEY

what's accuracy and delay
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 Unicorn.Excesspain
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By Unicorn.Excesspain 2009-10-28 08:02:12  
Isn't it Relic>AV GK(forgot name)>Hagun>The rest?
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:04:31  
Unicorn.Excesspain said:
Isn't it Relic>AV GK(forgot name)>Hagun>The rest?


For the most part, yes, though on HNM, Futsuno Mitama compares to Amanomurakumo due to the fact that Kaiten blows on the harder stuff, and that's what gives Amanomurakumo the normal "edge" to begin with.

PS:
Quote:
Vegetto again, figures the know it all would be trolling the forums


Truthful information =/= Trolling.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:06:37  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Unicorn.Excesspain said:
Isn't it Relic>AV GK(forgot name)>Hagun>The rest?


For the most part, yes, though on HNM, Futsuno Mitama compares to Amanomurakumo due to the fact that Kaiten blows on the stuff, and that's what gives Amanomurakumo the normal "edge" to begin with.


For most of us average joes, Amano and Futsuno Mitama are quite far out of reach, most common choices are Hagun, Ushikirimaru, Shinsoku and Onimaru... to a lesser extent Pachipachio because it is quite rare also.
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:07:04  
Use a Hagun.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:11:51  
Been using one for years, was time for a change, everyone that thinks Hagun > all (barring relic and Futsuno) are *** stupid. Pachipachio may not be the best gkt to use for everything i know that, but Hagun isn't the only one out there worth using, Rindo is best in some situations, as Hagun may be best for other occasions, likewise Pachi will also be good for many situations, glad i have oe cause its awesome, im happy with it.

Is there anyone out there that has actually parsed these? i'm really curious to know solid numbers.
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:14:32  
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Is there anyone out there that has actually parsed these? i'm really curious to know solid numbers.


Hagun won. /thread

Oh, and if this is a matter of "not using Hagun" on mediocre targets, use
User submitted image

(or Engetsuto)

+

User submitted image

(or Yellow Curry Buns if you really don't need the accuracy at the time, i.e Nyzul Isle Assault)
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 Hades.Dizzmal
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By Hades.Dizzmal 2009-10-28 08:15:38  
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Been using one for years, was time for a change, everyone that thinks Hagun > all (barring relic and Futsuno) are *** stupid. Pachipachio may not be the best gkt to use for everything i know that, but Hagun isn't the only one out there worth using, Rindo is best in some situations, as Hagun may be best for other occasions, likewise Pachi will also be good for many situations, glad i have oe cause its awesome, im happy with it. Is there anyone out there that has actually parsed these? i'm really curious to know solid numbers.



Tons of people have parsed these. That is why most everyone that has decent gear swears by hagun. If you don't belive it or refuse to listen to someone else, play on PC and parse it for yourself. If you don't want to do that just keep doing what your doing and be happy.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:18:47  
Quote:
True 5hit on rindomaru is better than Pachi. Same xhit build, less delay and more acc on rindo and possibility of ws dmg+% on rindo as well (and even that loses to hagun)

A) Hagun
B) If you're not going to listen to A, at least use Rindo.
C) Pachi is ***


Unless you get insanely lucky (highly doubt it) you want get the stats you want on rindo for quite a long time, i know it took me along damn time, and even then, YGK it sucks, Rana it does good, but it shines /thf, kicks *** in fact. Doesn't mean Pachi is ***in anyway, everything is situational and open to opinion, unless you show me proof what what you claim Veggy boy then gtfo, isn't that what you told me to do when i was talking bout penta builds? Not only are you a hypocrite but you're also a ***.
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 Caitsith.Xiong
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By Caitsith.Xiong 2009-10-28 08:19:18  
I don't have my parses up anymore. But I like competition, so I always parse my merits. As far as Pachi, the parse showed extremely lower numbers. We're talking roughly 20k dmg in about 100 fights against birds, mind you thats 20k less dot than my DRK/SAM. The only SAM's that I've seen keep up with me are 6 hit Haguns. I'll look through my parse logs and see if I can find it, I won't forget who's who either of the party, because its just merit w/ LS mates.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:21:30  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Is there anyone out there that has actually parsed these? i'm really curious to know solid numbers.


Hagun won. /thread

Oh, and if this is a matter of "not using Hagun" on mediocre targets, use
User submitted image

(or Engetsuto)



User submitted image

(or Yellow Curry Buns if you really don't need the accuracy at the time, i.e Nyzul Isle Assault)


Yes i have a Tomoe and a Gondo with a relatively good setup (not as good as veggy boys as he will no doubt brag about) and yes on mediocre targets Penta damage is crazy, but i'm talking about Pachi vs Hagun, leave polearms outta this lol, theres a seperate thread for that.

Hagun wins? you got proof Ironguy? I'd like to see
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:22:56  
As long as your accuracy is uncapped (see: anything about the rating of tough on the gauge), Pachipachio loses that much more ground on Hagun, enough to the point where if it comes down to spamming Rana, Onimaru bypasses it due to the sheer fact of that extra 30 delay actually hurting you in the long run.

...as well as the fact that you're probably using something stupid like Askar Korazin, and/or Hachiman Kote when you already have the sufficient 11 for a 450 six-hit, all strictly to support your mad good five-hit build.
 Hades.Dizzmal
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By Hades.Dizzmal 2009-10-28 08:23:05  
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.
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 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-28 08:23:35  
Why are all of the anti-Hagun people so retarded? I swear...

Okay, get out of here with your "omg u dun agree with me ur trolling" attitude. Secondly, YOU'RE the one who's spitting in the face of a substantial amount of evidence for Hagun's superiority over the years.

The burden of proof is on YOU, not them.
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 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:24:27  

Pachi: Dmg 82, delay 480, acc-6, store tp+2, attack+12

Rindo: Dmg 75, delay 450, acc+5, stp+15, ws dmg+4%

Pachi:
Delay: 1/(480/450) = 93.75% as fast as Rindo

Acc uncapped?

Let's say 94% hitrate Rindo, that puts pachi at 88.5% hitrate

Pachi:
88.5/94 = 94.14893617% the number of landed hits as Rindo

DMG TP phase:
Pachi:
82/75 = 9.33333333% increase in dmg/hit

Attack TP phase:
Assuming 500 attack and mamool
((512/332)-.35)/((500/332)-.35) = 3.1266285% increase to dmg/hit

DMG WS phase:
assuming 135 str for ws
DMG = 83+75 = 158 rindo, 83 + 82 = 165 pachi
165/158 = 4.43% increase to Y/G/K Damage
Rindo gets +4% ws dmg, leaves pachi .43% increase
(Rindo's)Acc/(Pachi's)attack are both negligible here due to their huge boost from being a single hit ws.


TP phase is about 30% of a sam's damage. WS phase is about 70% of a sam's damage

Rindo TP phase
1.031266285 (attack) x 1.0933333333 (DMG) = 12.7517805% increase. Applies to 30% of your total damage x .30 = 3.82553415% increase to total damage

Rindo WS
.43% increase, applies to 70% of your total damage
.43 x .7 = .301% increase to total damage.

Looking at capped acc, only the delay applies to Rindo's advantage

In terms of rindo
1.0382553415(tp DMG/attack) x 1.00301 (ws dmg) x .9375 (delay) = 97.62942094% of the damage that you get from a Rindomaru

If acc is uncapped, same numbers, but the acc applies
1.0382553415(tp DMG/attack) x 1.00301 (ws dmg) x .9375 (delay) x .9414893617% = 91.917706121% of the damage of Rindomaru.

Quote:
I have a 5 hit rindo mate, and it is ***. its got Stp+15 Acc+5 ws dmg+4%

If Rindo is ***, then pachi is shittier ***.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:24:29  
Caitsith.Xiong said:
I don't have my parses up anymore. But I like competition, so I always parse my merits. As far as Pachi, the parse showed extremely lower numbers. We're talking roughly 20k dmg in about 100 fights against birds, mind you thats 20k less dot than my DRK/SAM. The only SAM's that I've seen keep up with me are 6 hit Haguns. I'll look through my parse logs and see if I can find it, I won't forget who's who either of the party, because its just merit w/ LS mates.


Thanks mate, yeah i'd imagine overall in meripo might not come out on top, but i wouldn't use GKT on birds pt in most situations anyway... id rather use tomoe or gondo...have you parsed on anything else? just curious.
 Unicorn.Excesspain
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By Unicorn.Excesspain 2009-10-28 08:24:37  
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Hagun wins? you got proof Ironguy? I'd like to see

Do you have proof Pachi wins?
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:26:50  
Correction: You wouldn't use katana in any merit party period, because even over on the good old Mamool Ja, polearm still wins as long as you down a pizza.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:26:59  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Why are all of the anti-Hagun people so retarded? I swear...

Okay, get out of here with your "omg u dun agree with me ur trolling" attitude. Secondly, YOU'RE the one who's spitting in the face of a substantial amount of evidence for Hagun's superiority over the years.

The burden of proof is on YOU, not them.


Did i say Pachipachio is better than Hagun in every circumstance? I really dont remember typing that, in fact i asked for people that had parses show me so i could see them, im not a hagun hater, i been using one for years and it has never let me down. And yes, Veggy does troll, everytimr ive posted something on here he replies almost straightaway lol
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-28 08:29:31  
Quote:
Hagun wins? you got proof Ironguy? I'd like to see


You stated that Pachi > Hagun in some situation and I honestly can't think of a single one where this would be the case.

Meditate => TP favours Hagun (unless you do it at 300% each time <_<)
In a standard melee fight, Hagun will win
If you're spamming Rana, why are you using GKT? etc...

I respond to a lot of things too :P posting truthful information isn't trolling though...
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-28 08:30:16  
No offense, but learn what a troll is please before using the term.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:30:53  
Veggy, not everyone can get those stats on my Rindo, in fact most ppl that use it don't.....

raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone.
 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:31:23  


You tell me what your definition of troll is?
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:32:13  
My point still stands, anytime you want a 5hit gkt build, Rindo > Pachi. By a smidge in capped acc, by a ton in uncapped acc.
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