DA+2%/Att+4 Vs. Haste +3%/

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » DA+2%/Att+4 vs. Haste +3%/
DA+2%/Att+4 vs. Haste +3%/
 Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 17:02:27  
I just dinged SAM75 some days ago; and, of course, I am aiming towards a 6-hit build with Hagun but still need to cap my STP merits. I worked on that for the past few days and I am now only 25k exp short to cap STP merits (read: a merit pt I may get when I have time to play or few hours of Campaign Battle) so, now it is time for me to think about a serious STP-+11-from-gear build.

As a career PLD (yes, that was my first and is still my most <3 job, probably) I have sattva but after THINKING A LOT ABOUT IT, I am willing to toss sattva and get rajas. I was postponing it until I got full STP merits so, it looks I'll be doing it today or tomorrow or so. I expect rajas to be situational good for PLD too, so, that job will still have its <3 (not to mention NIN and BST!).

Right now, my SAM TP set is the following (REMEMBER I don't have full STP merits yet so, that set is not looking for a 6-hit): Current SAM TP set

If that is relevant, I WS at this moment in: Current SAM WS set (eh, that still lists askar for WS but I think I recently changed that to hachiman feet).

TAKING IN ACCOUNT THAT I DO NOT OWN USUKANE AND DON'T HAVE A SALVAGE LS RIGHT NOW, Usukane feet are out of question for the moment (but yeah, wouldn't that be a dream for my SAM and NIN?).

What I was trying to figure out is about my STP+11 gear. I know most people without usukane go with Brutal (+1), rajas (+5), hachiman feet (+5) for the 6-hit but of course, lose the 3% Haste from Fuma Sune-Ate.

Now THE REAL QUESTION: What about taking off pole grip and Ultralame's Ring (the ring I would use for second slot once I get rajas) and put Rose Strap and lolEcphoria ring? That would still mantain +11 STP (rose +5, brutal +1, rajas +5, ecphoria +1) and give me extra 3% Haste (I am not mentioning lolAGI+3 on purpouse, even if that helps you marginally with eva and... parry? I think?).

I would lose 2% DA and 4 Att from the ring, but I really love the extra 3% Haste. I am a little bit concerned about WS, wouldn't that 2% DA loss hurt very much?

I look forward for your suggestions, and even if my original question is not about gear/tips, I still welcome any comment about it, since this is my first "real melee" job and I am really really loving it.

Input really appreciated! :)

(Edit: trying to fix URLs)
(Edit2: Oh, don't mind my ethereal for melee, I am tossing lolKnight's and getting bushi as soon as I see a DM shout)
(Edit 3: Fixing Rose Strap numbers)
 Cerberus.Jiko
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2009-10-29 17:06:57  
Rose strap is only +4 sTP
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2009-10-29 17:10:28  
Rajas/Rose/Brutal/Ecphoria with Ecphoria swapped to a STR ring on WS is the current optimal SAM 6-hit for somebody with no Usukane. You're doing it right.

2% DA is a 1.7% increase to DPS for a SAM/WAR (10% from JT, 5 from Brutal, 2 from Pole, 117/115) plus a small increase to WS damage (not much at all considering SAM gears for STR rather than ACC - many DAs on WS will miss). 3% Haste is a 3.5% increase in DPS moving from a 13% Haste set to a 16% set (on that note, Walahra Turban > Askar unless soloing, when you can justify it due to defensive stats and no outside Haste). Add Hasso or any outside form of Haste and it gets even better.
 Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 17:10:46  
Cerberus.Jiko said:
Rose strap is only 4 sTP


Duh! You are completely right. Still, Rose Strap (+4), Ecphoria (+1), Brutal (+1), Rajas (+5) = 11.

Editing OP, sorry!
 Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 17:19:31  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Rajas/Rose/Brutal/Ecphoria with Ecphoria swapped to a STR ring on WS is the current optimal SAM 6-hit for somebody with no Usukane. You're doing it right.


Well, then I am glad I thought it well. I am not really a constant forum reader, but last week I have been searching through forums and never saw that 6-hit setup, that's why I started wondering. Thanks for the reassuring!

Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Haste is a 3.5% increase in DPS moving from a 13% Haste set to a 16% set (on that note, Walahra Turban > Askar unless soloing, when you can justify it due to defensive stats and no outside Haste).


Actually, it would be moving from +16% (byakko's 5%, swift 4%, dusk 3%, askar 4%) to 19% with fuma (or 20% if I used walmart turban, which as you pointed out I probably should, but I am just too tired of it!).

Anyway, more stacked haste proves it even better, no?

Thanks a lot for the input.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2009-10-29 17:22:42  
Heh, that's what I get for posting on the run. I neglected Swift Belt (though I used Walahra). 16->19 is a 3.7% increase and adding Walahra Turban to that (+1% Haste) is another 1.25% increase.
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By Seraph.Greyfin 2009-10-29 17:23:43  
Drop the Sattva, there are better rings for PLD, including Bomb Queen and Blood bead for HP, Mermaid and Hercules for Enmity, and Rajas and a ACC+ ring for Atonement Idle. Although 2x ACC+ rings would probably be better depending on your accuracy.

Rajas is pretty pimp for your SAM, and NIN too. I personally would go with Hachiman Hands and fuma feet if you get the rajas. This way you can still keep your Double attack grip.

Until you get usukane feet(i have the 35...no 15 or 25 D: )you will have to sacrifice one of the haste spots. If you choose to go with the hachiman feet route, you will probably need to ws in those too.

Hope this helps :)
Oh Btw, Hauby +1 > Askar Body since I see you have both, I'm glad you did not consider that a option for a optimal 6 hit build.

May Koki Bless you with lots of future drops~
[+]
 Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 17:33:58  
Seraph.Greyfin said:
Drop the Sattva, there are better rings for PLD, including Bomb Queen and Blood bead for HP, Mermaid and Hercules for Enmity, and Rajas and a ACC ring for Atonement Idle. Although 2x ACC rings would probably be better depending on your accuracy.


Not trying to make an argument about "sattva vs. any other thing" here (since this week I have read a lot of those!), I already made my choice and I *will* toss sattva and get rajas, I have all the other rings you mention, except Blood bead but meh... just wanted to point out that I wouldn't consider mermaid's ring (enmity +2) better than sattva (enmity+3, plus many other goodies), but overall yeah, sattva is replaceable.

Seraph.Greyfin said:

Rajas is pretty pimp for your SAM, and NIN too. I personally would go with Hachiman Hands and fuma feet if you get the rajas. This way you can still keep your Double attack grip.


This is what I was wondering and posted in the first place, if DA is worth it over the 3% Haste, but it seems it is not, according to Nightfyre's calculations. Not that I "want to keep my double attack grip", I am trying to find what is better for my SAM.

Seraph.Greyfin said:

Until you get usukane feet(i have the 35...no 15 or 25 D: )you will have to sacrifice one of the haste spots. If you choose to go with the hachiman feet route, you will probably need to ws in those too.


Do I? really? (serious non-sarcastic question).


Seraph.Greyfin said:

Oh Btw, Hauby 1 > Askar Body since I see you have both, I'm glad you did not consider that a option for a optimal 6 hit build.

May Koki Bless you with lots of future drops~


Hehe yeah, I wanted Askar Body mainly for town but I have had some fun with it also on Campaign Battle and fighting DC/T mobs, trying to break latent for :Rana. It is fun, but I wouldn't use it on serious matters, since I desperately need the acc from hauby (I don't have any GKT merits and I am capped on that merits section, would need to erase other merits which would be so ouchie for me!).

Thanks for the input!
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2009-10-29 17:50:21  
From my research into double attack you get decreasing returns from it where as haste the more you stack the greater you DPS is, not to mention added benefits from /nin situations.

Been trying to dig up graphs I saw comparing the two but no luck finding them. Honestly, if you have brutal earring that's all the DA you need on SAM. Pole grip is great when you're not /war or don't have other DA gear on but with rose strap stacking haste would be better.

My SAM uses Greyfins setup atm and it works pretty well, but if I wasn't so lazy I would have upgraded to rose strap and get more haste which would help when i'm tanking stuff like serket SAM/NIN.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2009-10-29 18:04:03  
Leviathan.Celestinia said:
From my research into double attack you get decreasing returns from it where as haste the more you stack the greater you DPS is, not to mention added benefits from /nin situations.

Been trying to dig up graphs I saw comparing the two but no luck finding them.

You can graph it out yourself working with the following equations:

DA increases the number of hits generated, so you're comparing increasing values. As I noted above, with Pole Grip a SAM/WAR with Brutal Earring and Pole Grip has 17% DA, without Pole Grip it's 15%. Thus, if you swing 100 times you would on average get 117 and 115 swings, respectively. 117/115=1.7% increase, you can do this with higher and lower values of DA to assure yourself it has decreasing returns.

Haste has increasing returns because it decreases time between swings. Thus, the formula for calculating Haste's benefit is (1-oldHaste)/(1-newHaste), with Haste as a %.

Quote:
Honestly, if you have brutal earring that's all the DA you need on SAM. Pole grip is great when you're not /war or don't have other DA gear on but with rose strap stacking haste would be better.

10% DA is still a 9.5% increase (with Brutal only) in DPS before taking into account WS DAs, plus there's Berserk for Polearm SAM or GKT SAM when pDIF is uncapped. SAM/DRG is popular at meripos because you're getting a lot of Haste (Wyvern Earring is more powerful) and Berserk is relatively worthless there (30% DPS increase when active, 18% average, worthless on YGK on merit mobs due to pDIF being capped, 30/70 TP/WS split -> 18*.3=5.4% increase to DPS). So where WAR is a ~15% increase to DPS in a meripo, 20% gear + 10% Hasso + 20% March + 15% Haste = 65% Haste where 5% more is a (1-65)/(1-70)=16.7% increase. /WAR is still valuable on more difficult mobs when not required to /NIN, of course.
 Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 18:04:19  
Leviathan.Celestinia said:
not to mention added benefits from /nin situations.


Honestly I didn't think about the marginal increase in ichi/ni recasts but yeah, seeing that now most SAMs for events (not merit) are asked /NIN, even a better argument in favor of haste +3%.

(Of course, I have heard of the weird concept gear macro-in for shadows but... yeah :P)

I am finding more and more opinions in favour of rose/ecphoria, will surely grab that ugly ring as soon as I get home.

Thanks for the input :)
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-29 18:18:37  
First of all I'd like to say that it's wonderful to find someone willing to go the extra mile reading up on their job :)

I'll make a quick graph comparing DA and Haste for ya. It's quite simple.

User submitted image

There we go. Note that it is adding 1% there, so just multiply the magnitude of increase by 2 for 2% DA, 3 for 3% DA etc.

It's clear to see that Haste > DA quite comfortably. Note this deals purely with the TP phase as well and ignores WS damage increase.

EDIT: Yes, I know DA is unlikely to go to 80, but it's to conform with the Haste cap stuff.

EDIT2: Saw the question on your item sets page; Osode for anything weak, Hauby+1 for anything strong. Y/G/K, notably Gekko, receive basically an "Attack bonus" which means that on anything merit level or below, your Attack will generally always effectively be capped during WS, rendering additional attack pointless.

On endgame targets, this attack multiplier actually swings the other way and makes the Attack on the pieces very powerful (since 16 Attack becomes 32 Attack with Gekko's effective 2x Attack etc).
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 18:28:54  
Would be interesting to see a "zoom in" of that graphic at around 5% (min DA) to 20% (max haste currently available for my SAM from gear) but yeah, overall I get the idea pretty well.

Don't we all <3 that math people? :D

My mind is set now, thanks a lot again!
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-29 18:34:40  
Lol :( knew I should've saved that excel document!

You have to remember as well of course that your Haste will be added to by March and the Haste spell significantly, giving an even bigger lead to the Haste stat. This is far more common than Fighter's Roll which is the only buff which affects DA%.
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 18:34:58  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:

EDIT2: Saw the question on your item sets page; Osode for anything weak, Hauby+1 for anything strong. Y/G/K, notably Gekko, receive basically an "Attack bonus" which means that on anything merit level or below, your Attack will generally always effectively be capped during WS, rendering additional attack pointless.

On endgame targets, this attack multiplier actually swings the other way and makes the Attack on the pieces very powerful (since 16 Attack becomes 32 Attack with Gekko's effective 2x Attack etc).


Sorry for double posting. Was answering previous post when you ninja-edited (j/k :P) the answer.

Very interesting. What would you consider "anything weak"? Same criteria I use for Askar Body vs. Hauby +1? (Campaign / TW / EP / DC / EM / T mobs).

I would be np to have both pieces on my macros and just put the one I am not using in Satchel, as I do with Askar Body (god bless satchel!).

I didn't know about that Gekko Att calculations, it enlightened me. I just wish Gekko didn't miss so often! :(

(Edit: on anything merit level or below: I think you already mentioned that and I just failed to read it :S. Still pops the question, since "merit level" could be IT mamools or VT birds, so...)
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-29 18:39:31  
Haha that's just bad luck :P it'll have 95% accuracy in any realistic situation where you are not accuracy debuffed (blind, flash etc). It's just your eye will notice the misses more than the hits, and you WS a LOT on SAM.

Basically: merit mob/limbus normal mob/einherjar normal mob/sky or sea normal mob/city dynamis mob or below ~ Osode.

Endgame bosses (sky/sea gods, einherjar bosses etc), Hauby+1. Note if said bosses are being Angon'd, then you will probably want Osode back, likewise if you're buffed up to zerg (Bahamut v2 for instance).
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By Leviathan.Celestinia 2009-10-29 18:45:58  
Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq said:
I just wish Gekko didn't miss so often! :(


You'll probably notice less of that when you get your Bushi, shame you don't have capped GKT merits either Snow gourget should help though. My WS acc was much improved after getting that lot done.

Oh and thanks for putting up that graph math isnt my strongpoint lol
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By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2009-10-29 18:51:11  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Haha that's just bad luck :P it'll have 95% accuracy in any realistic situation where you are not accuracy debuffed (blind, flash etc). It's just your eye will notice the misses more than the hits, and you WS a LOT on SAM.


May be the case, of course, but for some reason I don't recall missing on any Yuki or Kasha, just Gekko. Oh well, I'll shut up unless I had proof of it :).

Bahamut.Raenryong said:

Basically: merit mob/limbus normal mob/einherjar normal mob/sky or sea normal mob/city dynamis mob or below ~ Osode.

Endgame bosses (sky/sea gods, einherjar bosses etc), Hauby+1. Note if said bosses are being Angon'd, then you will probably want Osode back, likewise if you're buffed up to zerg (Bahamut v2 for instance).


Got it!

Leviathan.Celestinia said:

You'll probably notice less of that when you get your Bushi, shame you don't have capped GKT merits either Snow gourget should help though. My WS acc was much improved after getting that lot done.


Right! I forgot to mention that sea organs farm raid is on the way, so I get those nifty gorgets asap! (poor of my friends, I pity them for having to join me for endless hours farming organs :P).

About full GKT merits... I know SE will NOT increase the maximum number of merits from that category and I am also aware that 8 lolsword merits aren't as good for PLD as full GKT merits for SAM, but still... it hurts to erase them! :(
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-29 19:00:31  
Redid graph along with your request (sorta); this time it's 100% correct:

User submitted image

User submitted image
 Fairy.Koryuu
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By Fairy.Koryuu 2009-10-29 19:46:44  
Im not sure I understand this graph correctly
additional Double attack % DECREASES damage? I know Haste > DA but you cant tell me that an extra free swing lowers DPS
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By Ramuh.Haseyo 2009-10-29 19:49:37  
DA is inconsistant, though.
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-29 19:51:14  
Koryuu said:
Im not sure I understand this graph correctly
additional Double attack % DECREASES damage? I know Haste > DA but you cant tell me that an extra free swing lowers DPS


The graph describes the increase to dmg from increasing your haste or da%.

It simply shows that the more DA% you put on the less of an impact that makes.

If it showed a decrease in dmg the graph would pass the X axis and since that never happens we can conclude that we are not dealing with negative numbers.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2009-10-29 19:51:15  
It doesn't lower DPS, but the % increase to your DPS from each successive point of DA will decrease. Hence, diminishing returns. Still increasing, but at a progressively slower rate. Check the range on the y-axis again, there's no 0 displayed.
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By Fairy.Koryuu 2009-10-29 19:53:31  
kk I got it thanks for clearing it up
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-10-29 19:59:52  
Mithra DRG!!!

Also I notice the first graph is a little bit ambiguous as to the y value of x = 79, it is exactly 5 though the graph looks like it could be higher still.

1/(100-(x+1)) for x = 79 = 1/20 = 5%.