Sam/Rng Agililty Soft Cap?

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Sam/Rng Agililty Soft cap?
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 Cerberus.Novas
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By Cerberus.Novas 2010-02-17 01:23:13  
Hi, I'm trying to learn more about making a good Sidewinder build for Sam/Rng and was wondering when Agility just becomes R.Acc instead of Dmg Multiplier?
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-02-17 01:25:35  
There's absolutely no cap on WS modifiers for any WS ever.

You're better off using STR though regardless, unless it's something like Seiryu's Kote vs. Alkyoneus' Bracelets.
[+]
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2010-02-17 01:48:21  
Cerberus.Novas said:
Hi, I'm trying to learn more about making a good Sidewinder build for Sam/Rng and was wondering when Agility just becomes R.Acc instead of Dmg Multiplier?

From the way you worded it, I'll simply say: Drop the idea and use a polearm with /WAR; more reliable, and overall more versatile too (incase you have to swap to katana on the fly).

The only times you'll ever /RNG are Ballista, the Chains of Promathia 6-4 fight, the final A Crystalline Prophecy BCNM, and last but not least, when looking for Sandworm and Dark Ixion.

Even Yoichinoyumi Samurai don't use /RNG.

BUT, since I'm a nice guy, use this for shooting, and use this for Sidewinder; Fire/Vulcan's Staff if you can't melee for TP at any given time. Behemoth Rings +1 give more R.ACC (two more each), but I use my Merman's Rings since they double-up as magic reduction rings for me, and after all, I literally use /RNG pretty much never (and neither should you, on that note).
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-02-17 01:59:50  
I wouldn't say it's as limited as you say it is, Ironguy. There are more than a few situations where you don't want to be in range should a bad AoE TP move or spell go off, or there's kited fights like Kirin if you don't zerg that yet. And assuming OP doesn't have RNG leveled and/or is a career SAM, that's the next best thing.
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2010-02-17 02:06:50  
Siren.Enternius said:
I wouldn't say it's as limited as you say it is, Ironguy. There are more than a few situations where you don't want to be in range should a bad AoE TP move or spell go off, or there's kited fights like Kirin if you don't zerg that yet. And assuming OP doesn't have RNG leveled and/or is a career SAM, that's the next best thing.

That's the thing though: Due to Samurai's base archery skill and Sidewinder's innate ability to miss frequently, prepare to whiff pretty much every single Sidewinder you throw out, unless you're sporting stupid stuff like dual Preludes and sushi.

By the time you've gone around to support yourself with that much ranged accuracy and shot (at least) five times, you could've literally just stuck to /WAR or /THF (situationally), relied on Meditate alone, and done one run-in (and out) Gekko that would've put that one 300~ Sidewinder to shame, without question; make that two Gekkos if you time your Meditate ticks correctly.

If Samurai had access to Empyreal Arrow, this would be a bit more situational without question, but no word of a lie, it's not worth your time, honestly.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 04:53:31  
Psh I've seen sam/rngs beat rngs in zergs. And definitely beat the sam/wars. *** far as accuracy is concerned. Feint
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By Kujata.Argettio 2010-02-17 04:56:32  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Psh I've seen sam/rngs beat rngs in zergs. And definitely beat the sam/wars. *** far as accuracy is concerned. Feint

But that's a zerg. I think the OP and Iron are referring to general purpose SAM/RNG.
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By Yuffy 2010-02-17 05:55:30  
Siren.Enternius said:
I wouldn't say it's as limited as you say it is, Ironguy. There are more than a few situations where you don't want to be in range should a bad AoE TP move or spell go off, or there's kited fights like Kirin if you don't zerg that yet. And assuming OP doesn't have RNG leveled and/or is a career SAM, that's the next best thing.
After trying SAM/RNG on Ixion, which was probably the only
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Siren.Enternius said:
I wouldn't say it's as limited as you say it is, Ironguy. There are more than a few situations where you don't want to be in range should a bad AoE TP move or spell go off, or there's kited fights like Kirin if you don't zerg that yet. And assuming OP doesn't have RNG leveled and/or is a career SAM, that's the next best thing.

That's the thing though: Due to Samurai's base archery skill and Sidewinder's innate ability to miss frequently, prepare to whiff pretty much every single Sidewinder you throw out, unless you're sporting stupid stuff like dual Preludes and sushi.

By the time you've gone around to support yourself with that much ranged accuracy and shot (at least) five times, you could've literally just stuck to /WAR or /THF (situationally), relied on Meditate alone, and done one run-in (and out) Gekko that would've put that one 300~ Sidewinder to shame, without question; make that two Gekkos if you time your Meditate ticks correctly.

If Samurai had access to Empyreal Arrow, this would be a bit more situational without question, but no word of a lie, it's not worth your time, honestly.
Pretty much.

Last thing i tried SAM/RNG on was Ixion and even with sushi and more racc that the shooting set adviced, i couldnt hit it, neither on regular ranged or 300TP Sidewinder. I hardly see any situation where Sidewinder would beat a Gekko, zerg included and where you would want to be out of range to avoid AOEs, the skill is way too low to do anything.

Career SAMs replaced their ranged gear by more useful things nowadays.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 06:03:24  
Kujata.Argettio said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Psh I've seen sam/rngs beat rngs in zergs. And definitely beat the sam/wars. *** far as accuracy is concerned. Feint
But that's a zerg. I think the OP and Iron are referring to general purpose SAM/RNG.
True but say in xp you aren't dealing with huge amounts of evasion to overcome. In alot of lower lvl events they mobs are even easier to hit.

If you want to look at it this way. A polearm sam has pretty similar base acc then a bow sam has racc. polearm gets the 4/3 dex to acc and 10 more skill. /rng gets 22 from accuracy bonus II.

Pot au feu is awesome though hasn't been fully tested. So saying it only gives the lower amounts of racc/ratt (15%-25%) and say a sam/rng has base agi of about 60. And assuming capped merited archery. A sam/rng could cap racc against great lolibri with only the food (which is giving ratt too) with just a small number of peices of equip most of which are good for dmg too.

This set gives actually like at least 5racc over the cap while still giving +40 str, +52 agi, 32ratt, and 15wsacc. And whatever the food is giving you



As far as hard targets go. Chances are you were just running in for ws or are zerging anyways. Case 1 well better than waiting on meditate. Case 2 racc not a problem. It's not a completely useless job combo by far
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By Kujata.Argettio 2010-02-17 06:10:47  
I am not disagreeing that SAM can hit merit/limbus/nyzul type mobs.

But there is a lot more to it that just hitting. You have to either deal with poor damage WSing in melee range or move back to WS at the right distance and waste time.

You are far better off just busting out penta spam in a situation where you don't need the accuracy or the mob are weak to piercing.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 06:13:31  
Ws dmg will be lower without moving true. But you are also getting tp rediculously faster. If it wasn't for that you'd just put a vulcan staff on and shoot for tp and not have to move.

Idk guess not many people really gear for it or merit for it.
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By Vaashe 2010-02-17 07:20:10  
If SAM could wear Anwig Salade, that'd be an awesome build =D
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 07:33:08  
Whoops wrong one. Well whatever the sam one is!
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2010-02-17 12:51:11  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
True but say in xp you aren't dealing with huge amounts of evasion to overcome. In alot of lower lvl events they mobs are even easier to hit.

The rule of thumb is: If you can't beat a target's EVA (and/or DEF) with Penta Thrust, then you're better off using Hagun. If you can, then polearm is the way to go by far.

It's true that you'd be able to land Sidewinder more consistantly on easier targets (and most likely cap in somewhere such as Nyzul Isle), but from what I'm hearing from you, I don't believe you've ever truly ran into a Samurai that knew how to use a polearm (or alternatively, at least had it merited 8/8). Now I may have some exaggerated equipment, but let's just say, +1.5k average Penta Thrust with Berserk up on climbing floors in Nyzul Isle was a very common thing.

Sidewinder, even if you were able to land on those very same targets, would only be able to barely break 1k I'm sure, simply because also when you can manipulate STR/R.ATK on Samurai, the damage is still lacking, since your selection of equipment is limited, and Overwhelm doesn't kick in on ranged attacks.

On an outgoing note, yes, I've tried SAM/RNG zerg before too (Feint allows you to land no problem of course the moment it's applied), and that there was one Dynamis Lord, and now? I polearm zerg him every time, because in the end, it's more reliable, even in a zerg, since the moment Feint begins to fade, you begin to whiff Sidewinders again.

Oh, and sorry about the wicked-late response, on that note; had to though.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 12:55:13  
Just saying it's generally easier to get racc then acc. And the theoretical setup I made up stacks +40 str, +52 agi, 32ratt and is still over the racc cap and gets another 15wsacc. This is assuming the lower 15% racc instead of the higher 25% since still haven't figure out where in there it is

Not sure but can a polearm sam stack that much att and fstr/ws mod dmg and still get capped acc on penta?
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2010-02-17 13:14:13  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Just saying it's generally easier to get racc then acc. And the theoretical setup I made up stacks alot of str ratt and agi. Not sure but can a polearm sam stack that much and still get capped acc?

If polearm ever lacks the accuracy in a situation where it can beat the defense by default (Einherjar prime example), Marinara Pizza (+1) fixes that problem.

Sidewinder on the other hand, when you eat sushi only gets (ranged) accuracy, and nothing attack-wise, so food's the first one-up polearm has on archery. Secondly is the two-hander calculation adjustment, which not only provides more accuracy, but also attack, yet again.

So not only is archery usually about +70 attack behind polearm, but also about 30~ accuracy at least, not even considering merits; this is even after accounting /RNG's ranged accuracy bonus.

Now this isn't exactly in comparison to archery, but here's what most fresh out of the box Samurai usually think about polearm.



Which then results in (with me using a Yellow Curry Bun and not even being hasted 24.7, from KParser),



Albeit, not "1.5k average" like I claimed earlier, but you want to know why? That's because Penta Thrust usually out-right one-shots whatever you decide to poke it with (while climbing floors, bar NMs), which simply cuts my average to a shorter number than it should be.

...oh, right, forgot to mention we ended up booting that Masmune guy from the party on the third floor up just because he was doing less damage than the Thief.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 14:16:20  
As far as dmg let's do a theoretical lolibri. Now sam in that gear with merits and capped skill will have 253 skill. Doing the math shows that gear puts you over the fstr cap so replacing a flame ring with Jalzahn's Ring and and changing food to HQ but assuming it gives the same amount of racc/ratt just 1 more agi/str.

Now lets assume say 60 base agi and 70 base str. That set gave +41 str, +52 agi, 38ratt and +2% ws dmg and 11racc over the cap on them +15ws racc. And +10 str from hasso.

So your you would get another 60ratt from str. As well as another 15% ratt and 4agi/str so another 2ratt. That puts your stats at 125 str 116 agi 405 ratt.

Lvl 82 Lolibri have Defense 327, VIT 67.

So fstr2=(dSTR + 4) / 2
(58+4)/2= 32 since that bow caps at 32 so awesome.


Base dmg on ws is weapon dmg+fstr2+wsc.

The ammo+bow is 110

Sidewinder is 25% agi 16% str with a .83 lvl correct.

So int(.25*116+.16*125)*.83= 40.67 or 40


ftp is 5.0

Ratio= ratt/def
405/327=1.238

Ranged Cratio= Ratio - 0.025 x level difference
1.238 - .025 X 7= 1.063

Min pdif= -3/19 + 20/19 x cRatio
-3/19 + 20/19 x 1.063= .961

Max pdif= cRatio
1.063.

So dmg would be ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF
(110 + 32 + 40) * 5.0 * .961= 874

(110 + 32 + 40) * 5.0 * 1.063= 967

Factor in the +2%ws dmg on hat. The +25% peircing weak and the +0-5% randomization.

874*1.02*1.25*1.0= 1114
967*1.02*1.25*1.05= 1294.

This is completely unbuffed cept food and mob undebuff assuming the worst out of said food. Can you average that under those conditions with penta? Dia III alone would raise dmg by 21-24% which in retrospect means I probably should've focussed on ratt a little more since the pdif is so low.

On a zerg you should be getting double SV min at a minimum so that would put your ratt up to 653. Assuming a mob vit of around for ease of math 125 and lvl 85 and def of say 500 and which would go down to 325 with agon and dia III you should still get 1295-1412 sidewinders. Assuming you don't switch food to like curry since it's evasion is gunna be lol. I have actually seen sams do that and more. So 200% sekk double sidewinder 2hr 3 more. Barrage into 1 more and meditate into another. Should get about 10k dmg before feint wears off. This is slightly off since you will be using a vulan staff instead of soboro. Hows that compare with polearm or gkt?
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2010-02-17 14:41:47  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
This is completely unbuffed cept food and mob undebuff assuming the worst out of said food. Can you average that under those conditions with penta?

Easily.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 15:10:29  
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Just saying it's generally easier to get racc then acc. And the theoretical setup I made up stacks alot of str ratt and agi. Not sure but can a polearm sam stack that much and still get capped acc?
If polearm ever lacks the accuracy in a situation where it can beat the defense by default (Einherjar prime example), Marinara Pizza ( 1) fixes that problem. Sidewinder on the other hand, when you eat sushi only gets (ranged) accuracy, and nothing attack-wise, so food's the first one-up polearm has on archery.

Nope just as melees recentlyish got pizza pew pewers got Pot-au-feu which gives 3str/agi and 15-25% ratt/racc. Also really outside of zerg and fighing EMs an lower when doesn't a sam (even a full usu sam) need some more acc except on something like T or lower? I mean even in full usukane, cuch mantle, rajas/sniper+1, PCC, minuet earring you are still 24 acc shy of hitting acc cap on birds. A sam/rng can actually hit the racc cap on birds without food. Pretty much only thing gotta change in that set is racc rings, racc legs, put in racc head. Not sure if being able to use curry instead of pot au feu because of that would make up for the lose of like 20str. Especially at normal ratts
Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Secondly is the two-hander calculation adjustment, which not only provides more accuracy, but also attack, yet again. So not only is archery usually about 70 attack behind polearm, but also about 30~ accuracy at least, not even considering merits; this is even after accounting /RNG's ranged accuracy bonus.
Assuming nekkid except for weapon and no food and 60 dex and 60 agi and no merits and 70+10 str:

a sam/war will have with tomoe will have 286acc and 310 att.

a sam/rng with demon arrow/shigeto would have 292racc 270 ratt.

Pizza will end up adding about the same amount of att as pot au feu will ratt assuming the lower amount on pot. Though obviously with more str thrown into ws set the difference will get a little bit bigger.

Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
Which then results in (with me using a Yellow Curry Bun and not even being hasted 24.7, from KParser), Albeit, not "1.5k average" like I claimed earlier, but you want to know why? That's because Penta Thrust usually out-right one-shots whatever you decide to poke it with (while climbing floors, bar NMs), which simply cuts my average to a shorter number than it should be. ...oh, right, forgot to mention we ended up booting that Masmune guy from the party on the third floor up just because he was doing less damage than the Thief.

Lol not even close to 1.5k average. I seriously doubt you were 1 shotting most things in there. The mobs generally range from ep-T. Most pets at that lvl range from 1300-1800hp. Most normal mobs are more like 2k-4k. Some like imps and ramparts are a bit lower but meh. Seeing as your max penta is 2k...

For example whenever I have tp I like to go up and self skillchain a mob. There is little outside of those 2 mobs my selfskillchains can kill outright. Like only little birds I'd say that sounds about right. And I do about 300-400 ws 600-1500 disservement with half of that going to disortion. The huge dmg range is partly cause lol 5 hit so yeah sometimes it fails hard and high is well birds without misses. The big birds will survive the higher amounts with a good 10% hp usually.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt I would say that you kept pentaing on mobs that were at less than 50% Though seeing as your average melee hits are only 136 even if you account for another for your average 5hit penta to be 1.5k even if you weren't over killing you would need to over double your base dmg. Which means even if you add like 50 ftsr and have like 350 combine dex/str. While 1k fits in right with what your normal melee hits were doing + a little. Of course this is assuming 5 hit which seeing as you have a 90% acc the odds of that are only 60%

Really though all boils down to have you really really built a good sam/rng set? With merits and the right food and not throw rediculously more racc than they need at it? I've seen some sam/rngs that have do rediculous dmg.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2010-02-17 15:14:18  
I 1 shot things quite quite often in Nyzul, and a ***load of times I do closer to death and it only does 3ish hits, you notice the 400 low and 2k high? I'd say he really does avg about 1400.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 15:49:39  
Bahamut.Rumaha said:
I 1 shot things quite quite often in Nyzul, and a ***load of times I do closer to death and it only does 3ish hits, you notice the 400 low and 2k high? I'd say he really does avg about 1400.
Meh I'd like to see this often 1 hitting thing. Been doing nyzle for awhile now and don't get to see it that often. This is with sams, blus, drks, loldrg, rngs. The sams usually needed 2ws and a couple of melee hits to kill even ramparts. Gratned rarely bring a brd and only had cor for awhile. But still based on my own self skillchaining I'd put the vast majority of the non-imp mobs I've faced over 2k hp.


I also notice the average melee hit of 136.

So assuming a 86dmg weapon with say meleeing in average of 4 fstr that would put his average pdif around 1.511.

Let's say he gets 120 str and 100 dex and somehow still maintains acc for penta and that that would cap his fstr at 17. That puts his base dmg at 139 which would put his average 5 hit penta at about 1042.

His high melee hits of 278 assuming that was a bird since that would exceed pdif limits that would put his pdif at 2.471. Which means a 5 hit penta on that would do 2146.

Both of which actually come pretty dang close but a little higher than his max/average. Then again I probably assumed too much ws mods and fstr
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By Ragnarok.Zephyran 2010-02-17 16:14:39  
Looks like you would've done more damage just using Gekko, Ironguy, Lol.

Replace those 27 Penta Thrusts with 27 Tachi: Gekko's and you'd get an overall Gekko damage of 28,458. 3,261 more damage. (Assuming you're confident in your accuracy and don't miss a Gekko or three.)

I played around with Sam/Rng as soon as I got my Soboro to have some fun with it. I used some pretty ghetto equipment, Hachiman Domaruuuuuuuuu for one, and the feet/pants. On Greater Colibri my Sidewinders weren't doing all that much, about the same damage as you'd see from an average Corsair's Slug Shots.

The only issue I had while Sam/Rng was when using my Soboro. TP Feeding it a lot increases it's chance to use Feather Tickle, and gaining hate from it's multi-swings increases chances that I'd get Feather Tickled. So in the end, it wasn't all that worthwhile, but it was a fun experience.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2010-02-17 16:16:50  
Ragnarok.Zephyran said:
Looks like you would've done more damage just using Gekko, Ironguy, Lol.

Replace those 27 Penta Thrusts with 27 Tachi: Gekko's and you'd get an overall Gekko damage of 28,458. 3,261 more damage. (Assuming you're confident in your accuracy and don't miss a Gekko or three.)

Nope, his high Gekko was clearly a Double Attack, around 1500, Low of 800ish, with only 5 WSs since Gekko doesn't range like that, his avg would be maybe 900, in those 5 WS maybe he even DA'd 2 or 3 making it hugely skewed, too small a sample.
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By Ragnarok.Zephyran 2010-02-17 16:20:10  
Which is still an average, as he more then likely had a DA proc on his Penta Thrusts, which is 5 (or 4 times? <,<) times more likely than Gekko.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2010-02-17 16:27:16  
Ragnarok.Zephyran said:
Which is still an average, as he more then likely had a DA proc on his Penta Thrusts, which is 5 (or 4 times? <,<) times more likely than Gekko.

15% DA chance, happening at a 30% Avg is not an avg. More Gekko's and that avg would have plummeted.
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By Ragnarok.Zephyran 2010-02-17 16:31:49  
Needs more dataz.

Ironguy, go parse yourself doing Gekko's onry (at least 27 times) in another Nyzul and let's see what the average comes out to be :O!
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 16:32:40  
While the 1500 had to be a double att or 200% tp and alot of str. Without it assuming hagun and ws gorget at 100% tp it would've still done 971 dmg.

Hitting 1500 without double att at say capped fstr hagun and gorget and 100% tp with capped high pdif would require 253 str... so yeah not possible. At 200% tp that would mean 162 str needed. Granted in nyzle isle you can hit that especially with +str floor and food and drink.

Well I guess he could've been fighting a doomed/hound which are weak to slashing.

Though to make it fair double attack will help gekkos dmg alot more than penta.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2010-02-17 16:33:06  
Quote:
So 200% sekk double sidewinder 2hr 3 more. Barrage into 1 more and meditate into another.

1 problem here though, as far as I know you cannot gain TP*From attacks with Meikyo on, so Barrage is out.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-02-17 16:35:16  
Meh take it off manually. Or 2hr after idk. Though if you use dusty wing its like another 3 ws lol
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2010-02-17 16:37:02  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Meh take it off manually. Or 2hr after idk. Though if you use dusty wing its like another 3 ws lol

Last time I used, you got no TP from swings also.
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