Uguisumaru

Because its not just a damage comparison, 1% more is ALWAYS MORE.

If increasing damage is the goal, why would you try to think your way out of stone cold math? There are no diminishing returns, 1% DA is ALWAYS 1 more attack per 100 attacks.

Basically it works like this

If you have 50% DA and want to add 3 DA, = 2% increase

If you have 0% DA and add 3% DA = 3% increase

The main difference this makes, is that in the first scenario, the gear you're comparing the DA to would only need to give you a 2.01% increase or higher to be the better option.

In the second scenario, the gear you're comparing the DA to would need to give you more than a 3% increase to win.

The number of attacks isn't diminishing.

When people say double attack has diminishing returns, they're not talking about the number of attacks. They' talking about the damage you gain from adding DA gear.

Again, nobody gives a flying *** about the number of attacks. They care about what they're going to gain from adding X piece of gear over Y piece of gear.

That's not the way it works. 3% DA is not a 3% damage increase...

If someone doesn't know if they'll get an increase with one piece of gear over another, they need to use Mot's sheets. These arbitrary and incorrect examples are going to give them the false impression they're gaining something or losing something when they may not.

It is when you have 0% DA to begin with.

Again, for simplicity, attack for 1 dmg/attack.

100 attacks @ 0% DA = 100 dmg
100 attacks @ 3% DA = 103 dmg

103/100 = 3% increase.

If you want to use other numbers, let's say our average attack/hit is 67.2

100 attack rounds @ 0% DA = 6720 damage
100 attack rounds @ 3% DA = 103 attacks = 6921.6 dmg

6921.6/6720 = 3% increase in damage

its QA > TA > DA for which has precedence right?

No, just no...

lets say ALL attacks do 1 damage and there are no such thing as weaponskills or crits or buffs, then you can make the comparison of attack = damage, but that is NOT how it works.

More DA means more attacks per round, means more weaponskills, more crits, more ODD attacks, etc etc etc. 1%DA is VASTLY removed from 1% damage.

Correct, then Zanshin then lastly OA weapons.

Yes, 3% more ws than before, 3% more crits, 3% more ODD

3% in every damage category is a 3% increase overall.

*facepalm*

Attacks = 1 dmg
ODD = 2 dmg
Crits = 3 DMG
WS = 21 dmg

0% DA in 100 attack rounds

80 melee attacks = 80 dmg
10 ODD = 20 dmg
10 crits = 30 dmg
32 ws = 672 dmg
=802 dmg

3% DA in 100 attack rounds
82.4 melee attacks = 82.4 dmg
10.3 ODD = 20.6 dmg
10.3 crits = 30.9 dmg
32.96 WS = 692.16
= 823.66 dmg

826.06/802 = 1.03 = 3% increase in damage.

Though, showing me differently would be more effective than facepalming

For Saeval: Just finished a morimar farm, no accuracy buff but hasso(rcb as food):

hit/miss: 592/33 acc%: 94,72 %

Also DA favor 2 hit ws more than single hit ws.

Jassik: This argument seems to come up every year or two, by someone who can't quite grasp how the math works.

Simple answer: You're correct in the most simplistic sense, but wrong in any meaningful sense. Simply accept that, and try to figure out why things are described the way they are. Tigerwoods has written several posts that very clearly show the issue.

In particular:

This is factually incorrect. Ignoring the issues with TA/QA, it's equivalent to claiming that, if you had 10% DA beforehand, and attacked over 1000 rounds, such that you made 1100 attacks, adding 1% DA will add 11 more attacks.


Approaching from a different angle, do not try to think of 3% DA as 3% more attacks, think of it as an arbitrary modifier to your current build that can increase your damage by some unquantified amount. The only thing that matters is how much damage you do without the 3% DA, and how much damage you do with the 3% DA.

The amount you gain from the 3% DA depends on every other piece of gear you're wearing, as well as any buffs you're getting. All of those other items put together give you your overall damage output capability (generally described in terms of DPS). You then add the 3% DA and see what the new DPS value is, and divide B/A to find your percent gain.

Over time people have realized that the result of B/A is most notably dependent on how much DA you already have. As you add more DA to the A portion, adding a fixed quantity of additional DA to the B portion yields a smaller and smaller B/A ratio. Thus: diminishing returns.

Since you also brought up haste, it works exactly opposite that. As more and more haste is added to the A portion, adding a fixed quantity to the B portion -increases- the B/A ratio. Thus: increasing returns.

this post become full *** retard real fast.
oh wait that was like 3 pages ago.

I said nearly exactly this, just not nearly as well. My point was that something like Duplus is only 1% more than Pole, and while that might mean less of a damage increase when you already have 30% DA than it does when you have 0, its always 1% more. More is more, and there's no amount of double attack below 100% that makes it not better.

I also gave haste as an example of how the idea of diminishing returns doesn't apply to everything.

Pretty sure what Taint was after from the OP were sets to boost overall damage, not go OCD and stack as much DA as possible. Any idiot that can add knows that 50%DA +1%DA=51%DA, although apparently not all know that there is a point at which more DA= bad choice. DA is one of many many factors in overall damage. How did this discussion get sidetracked off on this tangent again? Oh wait...

I know someone's asked this before but I can't find it - to what rank should I be taking Uguisumaru at the very least? I'm not entirely sure I want to blow 30+ mil on fully upgrading it, considering I have 99 Masa/Amano and I'm still hoping SE will fix my R/Es sooner rather than later.

i would just do rank 2 but i'm cheap

ItemSet 155129

Beats the recommended set:
ItemSet 299677

Sure it's by a minuscule amount, 57.237 Total Damage and 4.3 dps, but it also includes +12 Acc, while unfortunately dropping 16 attack. Plus it looks a hell of a lot better than using Unkai body.

Even putting Oneiros ring on the recommended set or Candent Ring on my set, the set I posted, beats it. Again let me say, by a minuscule amount.

Also, have a question, since my spreadsheet doesn't seem to want to work properly when I try to use Usu+1 hands.
Can anyone work out, replacing Tenryu+1 Aug and Dynamic+1 with Usu+1 hands and I guess Phos Belt(to hit 26% or you could keep Dynamic+1 and sit at 25%)?

Kind of a budget way of not being able to get Tenryu+1.

Edit** New at this spreadsheet business, pretty much looking for critique on the Usu set.

What kind of mob? What kind of buffs? What is the ACC comparison?

Simply saying it beats a set doesn't help without the details of how

Sorry, I was actually thinking that as I posted, but assumed Delve Fodder was the norm.

Buffs: RCB, Hasso, Zerk/Agg,Haste, 2x March

ItemSet 155129
967 Att
642 Acc

ItemSet 299677
987 Att
630 Acc

Turning marches off/on and/or turning minuets on/off, still shows the Usu set as winning by 4-10 dps and 50-100 total damage

The only way set one wins is with Oneiros ring, which no DD is going to use. (no DD worth a ***atleast)

Its pretty much 4% crit vs 10% Zanshin.

Both sets cap ACC, both require some ACC in the WS set. With SAMs TP overflow not accounted well in the spread sheet, set two is still the clear winner, but they are close. Usukane+1 body is reserved for boss lvl content with Fighters roll. Where Zanhasso is diluted and the crit bonus is magnified and even then is probably not worth it.

Ah, I see what you mean with ZanHasso and I agree they are very close to each other. As for the Oneiros ring, switching it out with Candent in the UsuBody set still tips in favour of the UsuBody set. But again, the comparison of both sets is so minuscule it doesn't really matter.

How about the UsuBody set with Usu+1 Hands and Phos belt(or Dynamic+1 with 25% Haste)? Unfortunately the dps Spreadsheet is broken and doesn't calculate the values properly and gets errors when equiping Usu+1 Hands. Just looking for an alternative to Tenryu+1 that will compete with the UnkaiBody set.

Just manually add the hands.