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SOPA and PIPA
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 14:41:00
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not. Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.
But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?
Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!? Witch hunts are always fun... unless you're the one being called a witch.
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Valefor.Mithano
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 541
By Valefor.Mithano 2012-01-18 14:41:11
Forget the fact that proving yourself innocent goes against the constitution, the shoot first and ask questions later approach, to me anyway, seems totally out of line.
I would argue there are several laws and practices that go against the constitution. Unfortunately, it's OK for Congress to make a law that is later deemed unconstitutional. That part is actually OK in of itself, the problem comes from the damage that is done in the interim between when the law is passed and when the SCOTUS eventually finds the law invalid.
In this case, the amount of potential damage that could be done to the internet is massive. The SCOTUS might eventually reverse the ruling, but by then the damage is done. It's not that it would be irreversible, but there will be a lot of innocent bystanders in the meantime.
By Eugene 2012-01-18 14:42:54
It's not like the copyright holders are defenseless either at this point either. They have a number of tools to stop entities that infringe copyrights within the US.
They are asking for dangerously expanded powers, and as Jaerik says, to trust them in their use of these powers.
Caitsith.Heimdall
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1318
By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-01-18 14:45:02
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not. Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.
But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?
Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!?
see thats the rub sites would be taken down before actually having to prove if they were breaking copyright and in turn this kinda thing leaves the door open for other basic freedoms to be contested when they become inconvenient to someone with enough power. Also it's feasible that a simple banned person for misconduct on a forum could get a whole site shut down by complaining.
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By zahrah 2012-01-18 14:49:10
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not. Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.
But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?
Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!? Witch hunts are always fun... unless you're the one being called a witch.
Meh...I've been called that before. Don't hurt me none! Oh...Wait...That was the other word. :/
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Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2012-01-18 14:55:24
See if your congressman is in support of the bill or not:
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
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Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 14:56:29
Sadly one of the cosponsors of PIPA is in my state.
Already wrote him early this morning though.
Bahamut.Krizz
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3158
By Bahamut.Krizz 2012-01-18 14:56:30
Should've known MS would both be behind it. At least VA is split on it.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 32
By Asura.Draginhikari 2012-01-18 14:58:29
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!" Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA? That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies.
The patriot act was passed in a crisis situation where people were suddenly more willing to give things up because people were scared. When people are scared they are willing to give up about anything to feel safer and will not look a tthe actual problem till it's too late to do anything about it.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2012-01-18 14:59:00
Well, I see your blackout bandwaggoning and raise you by jumping on the complaining bandwaggon and then making one of those annoying pictures of that guy that says "Yo dog, I hear you like bandwaggons, so I jumped on a bandwaggon to complaing about you jumping on a bandwaggon"
And then I am going to go get in my car and run over some mailboxes.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:00:06
One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been writing very many emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.
By aureus 2012-01-18 15:00:22
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.
Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims?
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:01:49
Support for SOPA and PIPA in Congress is wilting pretty hard-core in light of all the internet blackouts, and the massive outpouring of phone calls and petitions against it.
A lot of the original bill sponsors, both Republican and Democrat, are bailing on it.
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 15:04:54
Support for SOPA and PIPA in Congress is wilting pretty hard-core in light of all the internet blackouts, and the massive outpouring of phone calls and petitions against it.
A lot of the original bill sponsors, both Republican and Democrat, are bailing on it. SOPA was already shelved indefinitely. I'm glad though people are still fighting back, since PIPA is still out there.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:05:38
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.
Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims? A court order is different from a hearing. Court orders on such things are typically granted by request, like an injunction. They don't require proof, as they aren't a final ruling. Hence the claim that they will essentially rubber-stamp any claims by copyright holders.
Under the current system, there must be a trial hearing and an actual judgement that the site is in violation of copyright. The defendant gets to be present and show evidence to the contrary. A court order, by comparison, is basically a phone call.
By aureus 2012-01-18 15:06:54
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.
Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims? A court order is different from a hearing. Court orders on such things are typically granted by request, like an injunction. They don't require proof, as they aren't a final ruling. Hence the claim that they will essentially rubber-stamp any claims by copyright holders.
Under the current system, there must be a trial hearing and an actual judgement that the site is in violation of copyright. The defendant gets to be present and show evidence to the contrary. A court order, by comparison, is basically a phone call.
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2168
By Pandemonium.Anookulchandra 2012-01-18 15:07:54
One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been sendingwritingvery a huge quantity of emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.
Serj come play LoL, before it goes down from this bill of Mexican soup. If you do not cease to post, I will continue to correct your grammar!
*edit* I left your above statement falsely corrected btw... on purpose...
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:09:18
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...
Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful/dangerous.
Cerberus.Tidis
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3927
By Cerberus.Tidis 2012-01-18 15:10:22
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7589
By Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha 2012-01-18 15:10:46
I didn't see this thread. :3 But I guess I can share what my uncle said here as well, even though it's all been mostly said. I have been asked by quite a lot of people to explain what SOPA and PIPA are actually all about, what they will do, and why you should be more scared of this than the Zombie Apocalypse.
Basically what it will do is empower the Motion picture and Music industries the ability to black list websites they feel infringe on their copyright, with government enforcement.
To be technical, they want to tamper with the DNS (Domain Name Server) system to give them access to block or remove Internet Domains with the click of a mouse.
So, if you have a website, and you have a link on your website, or a user posts a link on your website, to a site that they feel infringes on their copyright, your website will be blocked.
In doing this, they will effectively break the internet.
And, since over 95% of all websites in the world are registered in the US, this means that your website will be blocked from access world wide.
This is the same censorship technique that China and Afghanistan employ.
Now, to delve further, say you own a Social Media site like Facebook. One of your users posts a link to a song or video on YouTube, your website is now infringing on "copyrighted" material, and can be effectively removed from the internet.
Another example is Monster Cable, the company that makes those horribly overpriced yet terribly inferior cables and wires, supports this bill, their argument being that Craigslist and Ebay infringe on their copyright, because people can buy used cables at a discounted price instead of buying new ones at full price. Yes, they want to remove your right to buy used products. The Motion Picture and Music industries are against Ebay and Craigslist for the same reason, as well as Netflix because people can watch their movies without buying them new.
Newscorp owner Rupert Murdoch (Wall Street Journal,Fox News), is on board because he want to shut down websites where you can read the news for free, like AZcentral.com, CNN, Wired, etc. and ESPECIALLY....Google, the place you can find out anything you want if you know how to look, and has links to nearly every website in the world.
So, while they are saying this is to prevent Online Piracy from overseas websites that sell bootleg DVD's,(which, by the way has almost ZERO effect on the income of the entertainment and media industries) their real intent is to shut down or censor Google, Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, YouTube, Netflix, Craigslist, Ebay, Amazon, CNN, Wikipedia, and literally hundreds of thousands of other sites.
There it is in a nutshell.
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By Eugene 2012-01-18 15:10:49
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...
Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful. A court order is an official proclamation given by a judge that lays out how certain proceedings will take place. An injunction is a court order ordering you to stop doing something. A TRO is a type of injunction.
source
source2
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Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:11:13
Pandemonium.Anookulchandra said: »One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been sendingwritingvery a huge quantity of emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.
Serj come play LoL, before it goes down from this bill of Mexican soup. If you do not cease to post, I will continue to correct your grammar!
*edit* I left your above statement falsely corrected btw... on purpose...
Can't, am busy atm. Pretty frustrated over all of this and my efforts going unanswered if you can't tell.
Ragnarok.Neonracer
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Ragnarok.Neonracer 2012-01-18 15:13:13
Jaerik, I've done some little reading and here is some info about Canadians and this SOPA thing.. just wanted to put it out there for some of us Canuckians and how it would affect us.
Sopa & how it will effect Canadians
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Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:13:22
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...
Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful. A court order is an official proclamation given by a judge. An injunction is a court order ordering you to stop doing something. A TRO is a type of injunction.
source
source2Gotcha. Thanks Eugene.
Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:14:54
If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>
Just fyi.
By Eugene 2012-01-18 15:15:08
Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA. If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>
Just fyi.
Yeah, I figured that in the spirit of better understanding how the laws would affect us, wiki wouldn't mind me peeking at them.
Bismarck.Markas
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 506
By Bismarck.Markas 2012-01-18 15:17:25
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!"
Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA?
That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies. nobody believed that these affected them directly
Caitsith.Heimdall
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1318
By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-01-18 15:17:40
Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha said: »I didn't see this thread. :3 But I guess I can share what my uncle said here as well, even though it's all been mostly said. I have been asked by quite a lot of people to explain what SOPA and PIPA are actually all about, what they will do, and why you should be more scared of this than the Zombie Apocalypse.
Basically what it will do is empower the Motion picture and Music industries the ability to black list websites they feel infringe on their copyright, with government enforcement.
To be technical, they want to tamper with the DNS (Domain Name Server) system to give them access to block or remove Internet Domains with the click of a mouse.
So, if you have a website, and you have a link on your website, or a user posts a link on your website, to a site that they feel infringes on their copyright, your website will be blocked.
In doing this, they will effectively break the internet.
And, since over 95% of all websites in the world are registered in the US, this means that your website will be blocked from access world wide.
This is the same censorship technique that China and Afghanistan employ.
Now, to delve further, say you own a Social Media site like Facebook. One of your users posts a link to a song or video on YouTube, your website is now infringing on "copyrighted" material, and can be effectively removed from the internet.
Another example is Monster Cable, the company that makes those horribly overpriced yet terribly inferior cables and wires, supports this bill, their argument being that Craigslist and Ebay infringe on their copyright, because people can buy used cables at a discounted price instead of buying new ones at full price. Yes, they want to remove your right to buy used products. The Motion Picture and Music industries are against Ebay and Craigslist for the same reason, as well as Netflix because people can watch their movies without buying them new.
Newscorp owner Rupert Murdoch (Wall Street Journal,Fox News), is on board because they want to shut down websites where you can read the news for free, like AZcentral.com, CNN, Wired, etc. and ESPECIALLY....Google, the place you can find out anything you want if you know how to look, and has links to nearly every website in the world.
So, while they are saying this is to prevent Online Piracy from overseas websites that sell bootleg DVD's,(which, by the way has almost ZERO effect on the income of the entertainment and media industries) their real intent is to shut down or censor Google, Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, YouTube, Netflix, Craigslist, Ebay, Amazon, CNN, Wikipedia, and literally hundreds of thousands of other sites.
There it is in a nutshell.
oh ya these bills is a job creator well sept where it would shut down companys employing hundreds of thousands of people combined without due process or any real warning..
Carbuncle.Ianpyst
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 231
By Carbuncle.Ianpyst 2012-01-18 15:19:20
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!"
Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA?
That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies. nobody believed that these affected them directly
Well, the NDAA doesn't effect any American citizen. So Vandell's comment is just that of ignorance.
By zahrah 2012-01-18 15:22:22
Forgive my ignorance, but I just find the timing of this all oh so convenient. Funny that this blossomed on the cusp of an election. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but out of all of the problems in this nation right now, why is this an issue in the first place?
/sigh
I'm very disappointed in our government.
You may have noticed a number of sites around the internet either going offline, or blacking themselves out today, in protest of two bills in the US Congress that were recently set to pass with nearly unanimous consent of both Republicans and Democrats. An enormous opposition movement has popped up among tech, game, and internet companies, and the bills are now stalled pending further review, but the Democratic (Senate) and Republican (House) leaders are still set on moving forward with them at some point, so it's still important to mention.
Here's a description of what these bills do in a nutshell, and why our users should be concerned.
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Probably the most important provision of online copyright law is something called the DMCA Safe Harbor Provision. This legal provision says that someone who hosts a site that allows user content (example: Google, which links to other sites, FFXI, which allows user chat, or even our site, which allows forum posts) is a legally separate entity from their users, as far as copyright violations are concerned.
In plain English, this means that if one of you decides to make a forum post linking to or re-posting copyrighted content, you are legally responsible. You can be sued. But as long as we make a good faith effort to remove the content as soon as we're notified, we (meaning Scragg, Cliff, and I) cannot be held personally responsible, nor directly sued for violation of copyright ourselves.
Similarly, Safe Harbor means that we cannot be held responsible for sites that we link to, should those sites violate copyright. In other words, if gamerescape, or wikia, or any of the sites linked in our item pages violate copyright somewhere on their own pages, that's their problem -- not ours.
The only way for a copyright holder to take legal action against FFXIAH.com is if they take us to court, and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we purposely and actively engaged in the violation of copyright ourselves. Which is a pretty high bar to reach.
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SOPA and PIPA essentially remove the Safe Harbor provision. In other words, if one of you decides to link to copyrighted content on our forum, we are now directly and personally responsible, and can theoretically be sued for copyright violation as though we were the ones doing it ourselves. Similarly, if a site we link to (like wikia) decides to violate copyright, we can also be held responsible just for linking to them.
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court ruling. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.
Copyright holders argue this is necessary because they lose money for every second a site is allowed to link to, or feature, copyrighted content. They argue they need ultimate power to knock sites off the internet immediately, and only deal with the burden of proof later.
They promise to only use their new powers "sparingly" and "responsibly." I'm sure you can all guess how that one will end.
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This makes the internet a very dangerous place to operate. Google could be held responsible for returning links to any sites that could even possibly feature copyrighted content. (Which is most of them.) We could be forced to pre-censor all forum and user content for copyright violations before we could even put them online. Arguably, MMO's couldn't even allow users to speak freely in chat, as they might mention something copyrighted, which would make the MMO companies themselves legally responsible, and capable of being knocked offline without trial at the first complaint. Sites like Wikipedia, which are based entirely on user content, probably couldn't operate at all due to the inherent dangers. The effects would be widespread and very chilling to how the internet operates.
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Having worked in the games industry for 15 years, I'm acutely aware of the financial damage done by online piracy. This thread is not the place to argue the virtues or moral pitfalls of pirated content.
That being said, these bills are deeply flawed. They were written by major copyright holders (the recording and movie industries) to give them carte blanche ultimate authority over the internet. They comprise a massive overreach, and our elected representatives (who are too old to even understand how VCRs work, let alone the web) are too clueless to realize what's actually in them.
If you have a second, please sign one of the (many) online petitions in protest of SOPA and PIPA, and/or contact your representative or senator and urge them to oppose the bills. This is not a Democrat or Republican thing -- both parties have been equally supportive of the bills and both parties are responsible.
The massive outpouring of opposition from tech companies has caused many people in Congress to change their minds, and the White House has also now expressed reservations about signing the bills in their current form. But the battle isn't done yet. The bills still live, and will still be brought up in the next Congressional session.
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Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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