SOPA And PIPA

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SOPA and PIPA
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 14:41:00  
zahrah said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not.
Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.

But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?

Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!?
Witch hunts are always fun... unless you're the one being called a witch.
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 Valefor.Mithano
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By Valefor.Mithano 2012-01-18 14:41:11  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Forget the fact that proving yourself innocent goes against the constitution, the shoot first and ask questions later approach, to me anyway, seems totally out of line.

I would argue there are several laws and practices that go against the constitution. Unfortunately, it's OK for Congress to make a law that is later deemed unconstitutional. That part is actually OK in of itself, the problem comes from the damage that is done in the interim between when the law is passed and when the SCOTUS eventually finds the law invalid.

In this case, the amount of potential damage that could be done to the internet is massive. The SCOTUS might eventually reverse the ruling, but by then the damage is done. It's not that it would be irreversible, but there will be a lot of innocent bystanders in the meantime.
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By Eugene 2012-01-18 14:42:54  
It's not like the copyright holders are defenseless either at this point either. They have a number of tools to stop entities that infringe copyrights within the US.

They are asking for dangerously expanded powers, and as Jaerik says, to trust them in their use of these powers.
 Caitsith.Heimdall
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By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-01-18 14:45:02  
zahrah said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not.
Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.

But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?

Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!?

see thats the rub sites would be taken down before actually having to prove if they were breaking copyright and in turn this kinda thing leaves the door open for other basic freedoms to be contested when they become inconvenient to someone with enough power. Also it's feasible that a simple banned person for misconduct on a forum could get a whole site shut down by complaining.
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By zahrah 2012-01-18 14:49:10  
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
zahrah said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Any private copyright holder could basically get FFXIAH.com knocked offline just by accusing us of violating copyright. It would then be up to us to prove that we're not.
Someone asked this in a similar thread, and I wasn't sure about it.
I thought as much.

But is just accusing the site is really enough under these proposed laws to get the site taken down? Or would they require that you prove your innocence first?

Oh great! Internet McCarthyism?!?
Witch hunts are always fun... unless you're the one being called a witch.

Meh...I've been called that before. Don't hurt me none! Oh...Wait...That was the other word. :/
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 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2012-01-18 14:55:24  
See if your congressman is in support of the bill or not:
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 14:56:29  
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
See if your congressman is in support of the bill or not:
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
Sadly one of the cosponsors of PIPA is in my state.

Already wrote him early this morning though.
 Bahamut.Krizz
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2012-01-18 14:56:30  
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
See if your congressman is in support of the bill or not:
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
Should've known MS would both be behind it. At least VA is split on it.
 Asura.Draginhikari
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By Asura.Draginhikari 2012-01-18 14:58:29  
Valefor.Vandell said: »
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!" Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA? That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies.

The patriot act was passed in a crisis situation where people were suddenly more willing to give things up because people were scared. When people are scared they are willing to give up about anything to feel safer and will not look a tthe actual problem till it's too late to do anything about it.
 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2012-01-18 14:59:00  
Well, I see your blackout bandwaggoning and raise you by jumping on the complaining bandwaggon and then making one of those annoying pictures of that guy that says "Yo dog, I hear you like bandwaggons, so I jumped on a bandwaggon to complaing about you jumping on a bandwaggon"

And then I am going to go get in my car and run over some mailboxes.
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:00:06  
One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been writing very many emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.
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By aureus 2012-01-18 15:00:22  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.

Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims?
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:01:49  
Support for SOPA and PIPA in Congress is wilting pretty hard-core in light of all the internet blackouts, and the massive outpouring of phone calls and petitions against it.

A lot of the original bill sponsors, both Republican and Democrat, are bailing on it.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 15:04:54  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Support for SOPA and PIPA in Congress is wilting pretty hard-core in light of all the internet blackouts, and the massive outpouring of phone calls and petitions against it.

A lot of the original bill sponsors, both Republican and Democrat, are bailing on it.
SOPA was already shelved indefinitely. I'm glad though people are still fighting back, since PIPA is still out there.
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:05:38  
aureus said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.

Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims?
A court order is different from a hearing. Court orders on such things are typically granted by request, like an injunction. They don't require proof, as they aren't a final ruling. Hence the claim that they will essentially rubber-stamp any claims by copyright holders.

Under the current system, there must be a trial hearing and an actual judgement that the site is in violation of copyright. The defendant gets to be present and show evidence to the contrary. A court order, by comparison, is basically a phone call.
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VIP
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By aureus 2012-01-18 15:06:54  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
aureus said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court hearing. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read through the text of the bill, and I'm just not seeing any mention of this in there. The bill actually explicitly mentions requiring court orders.

Is there anywhere that has sources for these claims?
A court order is different from a hearing. Court orders on such things are typically granted by request, like an injunction. They don't require proof, as they aren't a final ruling. Hence the claim that they will essentially rubber-stamp any claims by copyright holders.

Under the current system, there must be a trial hearing and an actual judgement that the site is in violation of copyright. The defendant gets to be present and show evidence to the contrary. A court order, by comparison, is basically a phone call.

I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...
 Pandemonium.Anookulchandra
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By Pandemonium.Anookulchandra 2012-01-18 15:07:54  
Bahamut.Serj said: »
One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been sendingwritingvery a huge quantity of emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.

Serj come play LoL, before it goes down from this bill of Mexican soup. If you do not cease to post, I will continue to correct your grammar!

*edit* I left your above statement falsely corrected btw... on purpose...
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:09:18  
aureus said: »
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...

Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful/dangerous.
 Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2012-01-18 15:10:22  
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
 Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha
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By Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha 2012-01-18 15:10:46  
I didn't see this thread. :3 But I guess I can share what my uncle said here as well, even though it's all been mostly said.
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By Eugene 2012-01-18 15:10:49  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
aureus said: »
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...

Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful.
A court order is an official proclamation given by a judge that lays out how certain proceedings will take place. An injunction is a court order ordering you to stop doing something. A TRO is a type of injunction.

source
source2
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:11:13  
Pandemonium.Anookulchandra said: »
Bahamut.Serj said: »
One of my *** senators introduced PIPA. I've been sendingwritingvery a huge quantity of emails and letters to that *** head. None have gotten to him, only generic response emails have been returned.

Serj come play LoL, before it goes down from this bill of Mexican soup. If you do not cease to post, I will continue to correct your grammar!

*edit* I left your above statement falsely corrected btw... on purpose...

Can't, am busy atm. Pretty frustrated over all of this and my efforts going unanswered if you can't tell.
 Ragnarok.Neonracer
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By Ragnarok.Neonracer 2012-01-18 15:13:13  
Jaerik, I've done some little reading and here is some info about Canadians and this SOPA thing.. just wanted to put it out there for some of us Canuckians and how it would affect us.

Sopa & how it will effect Canadians
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:13:22  
Eugene said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
aureus said: »
I see. How does this differ from a TRO though? That's a court order, and seems like it'd serve the same purpose...

Not sure, but some of the argument seems to be that the copyright holders aren't taking action against the site itself. (Like they would be with a restraining order.) Rather, they are simply forcing DNS to nuke the IP of the site, and force search engines to de-list them. This "death by 3rd party" strategy is part of what makes it so powerful.
A court order is an official proclamation given by a judge. An injunction is a court order ordering you to stop doing something. A TRO is a type of injunction.

source
source2
Gotcha. Thanks Eugene.

Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA.
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:14:54  
If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>

Just fyi.
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By Eugene 2012-01-18 15:15:08  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA.
Bahamut.Serj said: »
If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>

Just fyi.


Yeah, I figured that in the spirit of better understanding how the laws would affect us, wiki wouldn't mind me peeking at them.
 Bismarck.Markas
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By Bismarck.Markas 2012-01-18 15:17:25  
Valefor.Vandell said: »
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!"

Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA?

That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies.
nobody believed that these affected them directly
 Caitsith.Heimdall
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By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-01-18 15:17:40  
Quetzalcoatl.Yomisha said: »
I didn't see this thread. :3 But I guess I can share what my uncle said here as well, even though it's all been mostly said.

oh ya these bills is a job creator well sept where it would shut down companys employing hundreds of thousands of people combined without due process or any real warning..
 Carbuncle.Ianpyst
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By Carbuncle.Ianpyst 2012-01-18 15:19:20  
Bismarck.Markas said: »
Valefor.Vandell said: »
It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!"

Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA?

That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies.
nobody believed that these affected them directly

Well, the NDAA doesn't effect any American citizen. So Vandell's comment is just that of ignorance.
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By zahrah 2012-01-18 15:22:22  
Forgive my ignorance, but I just find the timing of this all oh so convenient. Funny that this blossomed on the cusp of an election. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but out of all of the problems in this nation right now, why is this an issue in the first place?

/sigh

I'm very disappointed in our government.
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