Hand Ws Gear Question

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hand ws gear question
 Sylph.Vincentius
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By Sylph.Vincentius 2010-05-11 00:29:38  
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
so whats my average dmg?

Well, with meat and the setups I have on my page, I average about 1500. Full PA merits. I'm going to say at BEST, you'd average 1100. That's with outside ACC buffs that could be used towards haste instead.

Rice balls are ye olde.
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By Virtuosus 2010-05-11 00:31:25  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Virtuosus said:
Penta can't crit though

Ah, my mistake. Tbh, not really talking out of experience. Back when I was a SAM, it wasn't into the whole polearm craze just yet, lol.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-05-11 01:15:08  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Nightfyre, your two posts above made me burst out laughing. Good show.
I aim to please =D

Dia III on, we'll be generous...

122 STR 103 DEX 18% DA

646 attack with Berserk up, 547 with it down.

Level 81 birds

Zerk up

cRatio = 646/281 - 0.05*6 = 2.2 (capped) - 0.05*6 = 1.9

pDIF MAX = 1.9*1.2 = 2.28
pDIF MIN = 1.9*1.2-0.8 = 1.48

pDIF average = 1.88*1.025 = 1.927

Zerk down

cRatio = 547/281 - 0.05*6 = 1.646

pDIF MAX = 1.646*1.2 = 1.975
pDIF MIN = 1.646*1.2-0.8 = 1.175

pDIF average = 1.575*1.025 = 1.614

Level 82 birds

Zerk up

cRatio = 646/286 - 0.05*7 = 2.2 (capped) - 0.35 = 1.85

pDIF MAX = 1.85*1.2 = 2.22
pDIF MIN = 1.85*1.2-0.8 = 1.42

pDIF average = 1.82*1.025 = 1.865

Zerk down

cRatio = 547/286 - 0.05 * 7 = 1.562

pDIF MAX = 1.562*1.2 = 1.874
pDIF MIN = 1.562*1.2 = 1.074

pDIF average = 1.474*1.025 = 1.51

average pDIF = ((1.927*0.6+1.614*0.4)*0.5+(1.865*0.6+1.51*0.4)*0.5) = 1.762

base damage = 85
fSTR = (122-67)/4 = 13
WSC = floor(floor(122*0.2+103*0.2)*0.83) = 37

You don't use Shadow Gorget, so we can ignore fTP... I can't be assed to do statistics at 2 in the morning, if somebody wants to find the average number of DAs on this by all means. I'm assuming 1 DA.

(85+13+37)*1.762*1.25*6*0.95 = 1687

Ugh. While it's worth noting that your actual number is most likely closer to 1600 (Dia II) or even lower (no Dia), that's still appallingly close to your quoted figure. I'm going to bed.
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 01:18:11  
lol

is that with or without buffs?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 04:06:17  
Nightfyre, you haven't accounted for accuracy at all, let me give you a hand.

Damage:
0hit:0
1hit:282
2hit:564
3hit:846
4hit:1128
5hit:1410
6hit:1694

Chance of landing
Assuming that set + Hunters (350 accuracy or 65% hit rate)
0hit: 0.53%
1hit: 4.88%
2hit: 18.11%
3hit: 33.64%
4hit: 31.24%
5hit: 11.60%
6hit: 3.00%

Assuming that set without hunters (330 accuracy or 55% hit rate)
0hit: 1.85%
1hit: 11.28%
2hit: 27.57%
3hit: 33.69%
4hit: 20.59%
5hit: 5.03%
6hit: 1.10%

Weighted average

With accuracy buff:
967 =(0.0053*0)+(0.0488*282)+(0.1811*564)+(0.3364*846)+(0.3124*1128)+(0.116*1410)+(0.03*1694)

Without accuracy buff:
794 =(0.0185*0)+(0.1128*282)+(0.2757*564)+(0.3369*846)+(0.2059*1128)+(0.0503*1410)+(0.011*1694)

Conclusion

So as people estimated, your actual average is 800-1000 depending on whether you are getting accuracy buffs. With spikes up to around 1600-1700 with 1 DA and 1900 with 2 DA, but due to your frankly rubbish accuracy you will very rarely spike that high, 3% with 1 DA, and less that 1% chance of 2 DAs landing (assuming your getting acc buffs).

And btw Nights maths includes Dia III and Chaos roll. Which is enough to cap your attack, but you would lose ~10% if you dropped to no Dia (which is honestly how most people merit as they most RDM are lazy as hell).
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-05-11 04:22:55  
At most I get a Dia II but that's not very frequent >_>
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 04:36:41  
He is capping attack with Dia III, so dropping it to Dia II would just take out the 'over shoot' and maybe he would lose 1-2%.

When the RDM stops casting Dia at all is when you will really see the average drop.

The point is, in a 'perfect' merit party (Chaos and Dia III full time) his average will be under 1k, a far cry from the 1.7k he said on the other page.
 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-05-11 04:40:54  
Friend of mine thought he averaged around 2000 or something...
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 05:56:01  
can doubleattack proc on every hit in penta thrust?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 06:15:39  
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
can doubleattack proc on every hit in penta thrust?

Some argue you can only DA twice, some say you can DA more.

But that doesn't really matter as you would have less than a one in 10,000 change of landing all 8 hits (< 0.0001)
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 06:25:36  
I liked how you showed the damage/chance of landing a hit chart up there Argettio~
What would it be like with
11 of hunters chaos and fighters roll (all with respective jobs in party) hasso, tonosama riceballs enhanced effect x2 and berserk?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 06:46:58  
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
I liked how you showed the damage/chance of landing a hit chart up there Argettio~
What would it be like with
11 of hunters chaos and fighters roll (all with respective jobs in party) hasso, tonosama riceballs enhanced effect x2 and berserk?

All that extra attack will do nothing, as you are capped, so the only way your going to increase the damage at each point is more STR or DEX.

Hunters won't affect the max damage, only the average (65 acc if you have an 11 and RNG in the party)

Fighters will increase your DA rate, so make it more likely you will land the DAs (as you are swinging more).

Hasso would give a little bit from the 10 STR, but I don't have time to redo all the maths for the damage, but you can assume it would add maybe 1-2%.

Damage
0hit:0
1hit:282
2hit:564
3hit:846
4hit:1128
5hit:1410
6hit:1694

Chance of landing
Chance of 0 hits 0.00%
Chance of 1 hits 0.01%
Chance of 2 hits 0.36%
Chance of 3 hits 4.45%
Chance of 4 hits 27.45%
Chance of 5 hits 67.72%


Chance of 1 DA 15.56%
Chance of 2 DA 20.00%


Weighted average

1962 =(F2*0)+(F3*282)+(F4*564)+(F5*846)+(F6*1128)+(F7*1410)+(F12*1694)+(F13*1974)

conclusion

To make that work you just need 2 CORs, both rolling 11s on 3 rolls at the same time, with a WAR and RNG in the party.

Note, that all the extra damage came from the Hunters and Fighters rolls (mostly from the hunters fixing the crappy acc), not the rice balls. As I have said attack is capped (due to choas, zerk and dia) so the rice balls are just giving a few DEX and 2 DA.

Sushi is a far better choice for a pole arm SAM at birds, Get your haste from BRD and RDM, your attack from zerk, dia and choas and your accuracy from food.
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 06:53:42  
cool~ yeah i know with that setup i got pretty cheesy acc.
but again, it was 4:00 something in the morning and all i could get was 2 cors. So got to make the best of it i suppose :/
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 07:03:36  
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
cool~ yeah i know with that setup i got pretty cheesy acc.
but again, it was 4:00 something in the morning and all i could get was 2 cors. So got to make the best of it i suppose :/

I wasn't referring your party set up, I was referring to your choice of food/gear.

A sushi + normal gear would beat the hell out of what you use atm.
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 07:04:33  
what is considrered "normal" gear for polearm setup?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 07:25:06  
Basically what you use with a few minor tweaks and sushi.

TP
* Rose or Pole instead of Axe. Which one depends on sTP.
* Black Tath or T.Sting instead of RSE ammo
* PCC ideally (any one who wants to be taken seriously as a DD should have this)
* Hollow/Fowling earring in stead of Aesir (depending on accuracy)
* Haste shoes (this is why rose is hot)

WS
* Moogle helm or Shura (as accuracy should be ok due to sushi), but tbh a pretty good head option
* Gorget
* O.kotes (maybe, depends on buffs)
* Byakkos

You aren't a million miles from the right gear, just a few odd choices and a bad choice of food is holding you back. There are a few obvious upgrades (new haste belt, PCC etc) but not bad.
 Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
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By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2010-05-11 07:27:39  
I got moogle helm: str 4 weaponskill acc 15, attk 5 acc 10
(or did i fudge that one up too...)
Why o.kotes instead of AF hands +1/b.kotes
why byakko's over shura?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 07:38:25  
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
I got moogle helm: str 4 weaponskill acc 15, attk 5 acc 10
(or did i fudge that one up too...)
Why o.kotes instead of AF hands 1/b.kotes
why byakko's over shura?

The ideal moogle hat is 4STR, 15WSACC, 2%DMG. But the 25 acc hat is ok. But you won't need 25 acc if you are using sushi, which is where Shura/wyvern maybe worth it (depending on accuracy).

O.kotes is situational, for good gear and a good set up (BRD, COR and Dia casting RDM) you will probably cap attack so AF+1 are best. If you are missing any one of those then you may find yourself with attack uncapped at which point Okotes will beat AF+1. To decide for your you need to check your attack and see what the RDM is up to.

Byakko's will give more damage due to the 15 DEX. 15 DEX is 3 WSC, whereas 5 STR is only 1 fSTR and 0 WSC (as STR isn't a mod for penta). 3 is bigger than 1, so Byakko's win

Obviously you can't look at each item in isolation, you need to look at the set as a whole, so its hard to nail down exactly what to use in each slot (head for example).
 Titan.Wombat
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By Titan.Wombat 2010-05-11 08:31:23  
Penta mod is 20% STR 20% DEX
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-05-11 09:06:27  
Damn, I honestly just assumed he at least had enough to cap accuracy with Hunter's Roll... should've checked that. Sorry I didn't mention the use of Chaos Roll; in all honesty you'd be better off with Corsair's Roll for the other buff if you're going for EXP/hr but I had a feeling you run Hunter's/Chaos so I went with that.
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-05-11 09:11:10  
Valefor.Argettio said:
Basically what you use with a few minor tweaks and sushi.

TP
* Rose or Pole instead of Axe. Which one depends on sTP.
* Black Tath or T.Sting instead of RSE ammo
* PCC ideally (any one who wants to be taken seriously as a DD should have this)
* Hollow/Fowling earring in stead of Aesir (depending on accuracy)
* Haste shoes (this is why rose is hot)

WS
* Moogle helm or Shura (as accuracy should be ok due to sushi), but tbh a pretty good head option
* Gorget
* O.kotes (maybe, depends on buffs)
* Byakkos

You aren't a million miles from the right gear, just a few odd choices and a bad choice of food is holding you back. There are a few obvious upgrades (new haste belt, PCC etc) but not bad.

Wouldn't Hissho Hachimaki be better than Shura head for Penta, assuming you can't use Moogle head?
 Bismarck.Rellz
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By Bismarck.Rellz 2010-05-11 09:33:30  
Im sure my gear has flaws and needs upgrading but this is generally what i use

TP:


WS (I generally only use 1 macro for gear i just find multi swap macros annoying)
Edit: Since this is talk about penta setups figured id make one of what i use
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 09:38:23  
Titan.Wombat said:
Penta mod is 20% STR 20% DEX

My mistake, I thought its was 20% DEX only.

Either way, Byakko's is still 3 WSC, and Shura is 1 WSC and 1 fSTR (most of the time). 3 is bigger than 2, so Byakko's win.

If you happen to get 2 fSTR from Shura (which will depend on other gear and the mob and be quite unlikely) then Shura would be better.

Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
Wouldn't Hissho Hachimaki be better than Shura head for Penta, assuming you can't use Moogle head?

Situational, if attack is capped then Shura or Moogle is better.

Attack should cap with decent gear 'zerk, Chaos and Dia II or III. Sushi should have the accuracy covered.

But when zerk is down, choas rolls low or your RDM gets lazy then Hissho is probably is your best bet.

Depends how OCD you want to get about it, using Hissho for all Pentas would probably be the best if you are only using 1 set.
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By Ramuh.Lorzy 2010-05-11 09:42:31  
looks good to me if you don't need acc for tp. (pretty standard pizza/weak mobs build i think?)

ws is pretty good, i think what some people do is macro the gorget into the ws itself, separate from the str gear, if that helps. some use smilo +1 if att is capped, i probably wouldn't bother. obvious upgrades are obvious: tp neck, alky's, could use another str ring and str earring/aesir?
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 09:53:14  
Just to explain this attack capping thingy I keep harping on about.

In the context of pink birds (which was what we were talking about) you need the following to cap attack:

No Dia: 720
Dia II: 650
Dia III: 610

A decent Polearm SAM should be hitting ~650 with 'zerk and choas (that 420ish before buffs).
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-11 11:51:35  
Relz not sure if you are using a console

Tp in dusk gloves over askar, unless you need the +dex from askar. Fowling Earring is a better choice than Ethereal. Strength ring over Ulthalam's Ring for YGK.

For pentra you can use Ochimusha Kote, Myochin Kote +1 or Enkidu's Mittens. Depends on your accuracy what food you are eating and what rolls you are getting. Oh and leave Byakkos on for pentra. Tiphia Sting in the ammo slot.
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By Bismarck.Rellz 2010-05-11 11:56:51  
I use askar over dusk gloves for the little extra acc and the eva (bescause im sure to get hate)
I had a fowling but i was told ethereal was better. (because of the att and eva im guessing.
was gunna upgrade to aesir eventually anyway. as for penta i am working on getting the items for AF Hands +1
And for tiphia sting i dont like the -eva plus i like to have a bow just in case.
Been wanting to farm items for gorgets. too, but ive had no modivation.
 Seraph.Rafik
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-11 12:02:57  
Shouldnt be worrying about evasion sam has high parry and seigan third eye is your friend when you get hate.
 Bismarck.Rellz
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By Bismarck.Rellz 2010-05-11 12:05:12  
my parry isnt capped sadly. but you make a point. but still seigan third eye usually wears before hate is gotten off me / mob dead so i end up taking a few hits b4 third eye is up again. Every bit of eva helps imo
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-11 12:06:14  
Don't forget your PDT gear.