Third Atma And WS Gear Help

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Third atma and WS gear help
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-12-28 18:35:45  
Ok, thats all true, I can see that... I'll have to get the SQ atma too then to play with that some... is that the highest STP atma?
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-12-28 18:46:26  
I wish Hedjedjet was up.
Also, Vadleany is an ahole >.>
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-12-28 18:48:33  
don't you get it off Hedjet or w/e its called...the popped T2 NM?
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-12-28 18:53:36  
Hedjedjet is the standing t3 scorpion NM that drops items for +2 armor.
Shaula gotta be at 100% for it to pop, and Shaula's ??? requires Vadleany 100% and Akrabs 100% to be visible.
 Quetzalcoatl.Kouryuu
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kouryuu 2010-12-28 19:00:17  
i see someone with that Vougiers (sp) lance in your gear set.. could you shed some light on what drops that please.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-12-28 19:02:30  
damn Fred that is absolutely confusing as ***lol.. i haven't messed around much in heroes except for the bosses and Caturae lol
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-12-28 19:04:31  
Dominion.
Basically, to pop Hedjedjet:
1) Dominion the sh*t out of Akrabs (normal scorpions) until they reach 100%.
2) Spam Vadleany (has to be manaburned - anything else is too slow, inefficient, or doesn't work) until 100%
3) Shaula's ??? pops. Spam the sh*t out of it until it's at 100%.
4) Hedjedjet pops.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-12-28 19:05:28  
ahhh, and how do you tell when an NM is at a certain %? (Shaula sounds like an NM)
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-12-28 19:08:12  
Shaula is the "first" scorpion NM, yes.
 Leviathan.Korialstrasz
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By Leviathan.Korialstrasz 2010-12-29 01:27:39  
Quetzalcoatl.Kouryuu said:
i see someone with that Vougiers (sp) lance in your gear set.. could you shed some light on what drops that please.
Drops from Empousa in Abyssea - Uleguerand.
 Lakshmi.Vitali
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By Lakshmi.Vitali 2010-12-29 08:30:01  
Caitsith.Linear said:
I haven't fought Heroes NMs, as I haven't gotten the expansion as of yet. But no one in my LS has mentioned horrible hit rate, either. So I was basing it off my experience with high end Scars NMs at 85. As for OAT weapon, I don't actually have it. Blobdingnab is a major cockblock and I don't have the funds to pay for people to merc it for me. However, it's similar to Love Halberd, which despite many beliefs, rivaled Gungnir in terms of overall damage back at 75 and 80 cap. WS damage suffers a bit, but the rate at which you gain TP is absolutely amazing. I'll see if I can dig up an old Einherjar parse where I came in second to a pimped out NIN against bones with Love Halberd.

Something else to consider, though. You're still speaking in terms of exp mobs. Fighting the newer NMs, you want to control the amount of TP you feed them. Sure, it's cool you can get tp fast, but that also means you're feeding the mob a lot more tp too.

I still question weither or not the OAT are comparable. You theorize the WS frequency will outweight the gimped damage, but that's without having ever used it (and having used love halbred, I don't believe that claim either).

I'll have to see if anyone on my server actually has one of these OAT, and maybe we can get some real tests.
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-12-29 11:12:17  


My gear was fairly "meh" back then. Johnrambo played just as aggressively as I did, except he used Thalassocrat and had better gear overall.
 Bismarck.Luces
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By Bismarck.Luces 2010-12-29 11:33:05  
High my names math: So usually on drg I'm at 50% critical hit rate in abyssea. 50% critical hit rate vs 53% critical hit rate is an increase in frequency of critical hits by hundredths of a percent and you think that's better then an actual noticeable increase in damage? I think a majority of y'all should take statistic, if you can handle the math gaming statistics, and realize that if you took that as a business model to a company and told them you wanted a 3% increase on something that is already as high as 50% at the cost of loosing a constant increase in profits. They wouldn't just laugh at you they would fire your *** and you would be like the rest of the US right now unemplyed probably longer then everyone else if you think that 53% is uber good compaired to 50% + damage increase. I also never found a passage saying which WS gearing/atma he needed help on. I would assume drakesbane, but what about for the empy. ws or penta thrust(I know plenty of people not on floor 100)?
[+]
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-12-29 11:37:32  
I'm sorry, I stopped even trying to take your post seriously at "high".
[+]
 Diabolos.Piraal
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By Diabolos.Piraal 2010-12-29 11:47:31  
Yeah... i'm not sure where your coming up with this math Luces. Where is this 3% coming from, and what gear, or atma is your argument for to replace it.
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-12-29 11:48:06  
Penta Thrust is ***and Camlanns Torment is only as good as Drakesbane outside abyssea.

And most increases in this game are all barely noticeable by themselves.
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-12-29 12:18:11  
Lakshmi.Vitali said:
Something else to consider, though. You're still speaking in terms of exp mobs. Fighting the newer NMs, you want to control the amount of TP you feed them. Sure, it's cool you can get tp fast, but that also means you're feeding the mob a lot more tp too.

I still question weither or not the OAT are comparable. You theorize the WS frequency will outweight the gimped damage, but that's without having ever used it (and having used love halbred, I don't believe that claim either).

I'll have to see if anyone on my server actually has one of these OAT, and maybe we can get some real tests.

I have OaT Corsesca +2 and it is absolutely amazingly broken... I don't even have 5hit for it yet (properly anyway, I have a VV-assisted one... fu DRG AF3+1 body for being so hard to get). 94D is hardly gimped and you still put up Drakes numbers in the 3-4k+ range on non-piercing weak mobs. Higher the base DMG of your weapon, the less the same base damage difference means (which is to say, 10 of 40 is greater than 10 of 100, say); so the 94D isn't as bad as you'd expect.

Combine that with the fact that Drakesbane is a high WSC WS and the base damage during weaponskill means the difference in DMG becomes even less significant. During TP the damage difference from DMG is some ~20% (but ~40% extra DoT from the OaT on the polearm) and about 10-15% during WS (but ~40% extra WSs from the OaT on the polearm). Noting of course that multihit Atmas weaken the OaT lance relatively but not enough to change the hierarchy.

This lance is monstrous.
 Lakshmi.Ryanx
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By Lakshmi.Ryanx 2010-12-29 12:48:23  
for your 3rd atma u want atma of the apocalyps gives tripple attack quick magic 10% chance for that to proc and auto RR 3 u get it from shinryu
 Lakshmi.Vitali
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By Lakshmi.Vitali 2010-12-29 13:09:16  
Raenryong, do you have any parses to share?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-12-29 13:12:35  
Why do you care about parses?
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2010-12-29 13:25:48  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Lakshmi.Vitali said:
Something else to consider, though. You're still speaking in terms of exp mobs. Fighting the newer NMs, you want to control the amount of TP you feed them. Sure, it's cool you can get tp fast, but that also means you're feeding the mob a lot more tp too. I still question weither or not the OAT are comparable. You theorize the WS frequency will outweight the gimped damage, but that's without having ever used it (and having used love halbred, I don't believe that claim either). I'll have to see if anyone on my server actually has one of these OAT, and maybe we can get some real tests.
I have OaT Corsesca +2 and it is absolutely amazingly broken... I don't even have 5hit for it yet (properly anyway, I have a VV-assisted one... fu DRG AF3+1 body for being so hard to get). 94D is hardly gimped and you still put up Drakes numbers in the 3-4k+ range on non-piercing weak mobs. Higher the base DMG of your weapon, the less the same base damage difference means (which is to say, 10 of 40 is greater than 10 of 100, say); so the 94D isn't as bad as you'd expect. Combine that with the fact that Drakesbane is a high WSC WS and the base damage during weaponskill means the difference in DMG becomes even less significant. During TP the damage difference from DMG is some ~20% (but ~40% extra DoT from the OaT on the polearm) and about 10-15% during WS (but ~40% extra WSs from the OaT on the polearm). Noting of course that multihit Atmas weaken the OaT lance relatively but not enough to change the hierarchy. This lance is monstrous.

I thought you were moving to Ragnarok with me!

Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Ifrit.Eikechi said:
well didn't you just say you're over TPing anyways? so how would 20 STP beat 15% trips? if its all over kill anyways? since the trips can proc on WS
Not what I meant. Assuming you're playing aggressively, you have the following scenarios: 1) No DA/TA proc. You hit 100 TP and promptly WS, wasting no hits. 2) DA procs. If it procs on the hit that would have gotten you to 100 TP anyway, the additional hit does not contribute to WS frequency. Thus, some of its potential impact on your DPS is wasted. 3) TA procs. Same deal as DA, but it can also proc one hit early and still cause over-TP. It is "lossier" than DA in this respect. Store TP doesn't influence the number of hits/round, so as long as you're playing aggressively then you'll get most of the benefit out of it (barring rounds where DA/TA causes you to overTP rather than just not paying attention). Conservative or lazy playstyles will get more benefit (relatively) out of Apocalypse and less out of Scorpion Queen because Store TP isn't doing much if you're constantly WSing at 120+ TP.

On a note relating to both of these posts: I normally jump immediately following my WS (with drakesbane the animation is still occuring). I start with soul jump and should a double attack or OAT attack "proc" it will put me directly over the 100% mark with little to no overspill. I will usually meditate and immediately weaponskill a second time with a spirit jump during the animation and attempt to follow up with a last drakesbane (usually followed by seigan/thirdeye or super jump back in the day). I think you really learn to manage TP based on how its coming in whether youre aggresive or not.
 Valefor.Setsugekka
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By Valefor.Setsugekka 2010-12-29 14:11:28  
OAT Polearm +2 is amazing. What I usually do is RR/GH/SS. I am not liking any double or triple attack since I have 40% DA from my weapon already, anything else will be only half the benefit for TP, so I don't like Apoc in this particular setup. VV is ok, but I feel like the regain is too inconsistent to rely on as a hit build fix, DA is not as good for OAT, and STR is good but not nearly as beneficial when you critical 75% of the time. With RR and GH, my critical hit rate should be at 74% during tp, and likely 84-90% during WS depends on how much critical hit rate bonus Drakesbane give at 100% tp. So the 30% critical hit damage increase from SS is at the least a 20% increase in my overall damage (jumps will take full 30% benefit). The HP is also sweet when you are soloing for breath trigger.

Also agreed to the earlier post about base damage of the weapon doesn't effect Drakesbane damage as much thanks to the high WSC, which dilutes the weight of your D value. At this moment, OAT polearm IMO is definitely the best weapon a DRG can have, that includes relic, mythic, and empyrean.
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-12-29 14:34:01  
Quote:
Raenryong, do you have any parses to share?

I don't sadly. I'm one of only two DRGs in my shell and the other DRG doesn't enjoy playing the job much at the moment due to gear limitations etc (which shall be remedied in time). Given the fact that Abyssea is largely chaotic, I don't normally parse a lot of stuff (need to hold to proc blue/red/gryellow? Okay, stop fighting. Too much TP spam? Okay, take some melee off. Get an add? Non-tank DDs can kill it), etc; not to mention varying mob types, Stalwart's up/down, buffs etc etc...

I know that makes my stuff little better than eyeballing in terms of my personal experience with the weapons (though math should be accurate assuming the base models we use to make the mathematical approximations is accurate, which it is to the best of our knowledge), but it does feel ridiculously powerful. I was using a 5hit sTP Stingray +1 before and this absolutely rapes it.

Ragnarok.Ashman said:
I thought you were moving to Ragnarok with me!

Naw, FINALLY managed to finish the bloody thing. Well worth the effort.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2010-12-29 14:44:46  
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Naw, FINALLY managed to finish the bloody thing. Well worth the effort.

I'm glad to hear. I came up with a plan that I had forgotten to share with you :<

For anyone else working on this lance and stuck on blob: When you are about to start, or have just finished, an event in Abyssea - Grauberg or Altepa; ask your ls mates if they can donate 5 minutes to pop your VNM. If you farm your own pops for him, with a friend or two, you can do this easily in only a couple days and with 18 bodies pre or post event it should take no effort at all :D
 Valefor.Setsugekka
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By Valefor.Setsugekka 2010-12-29 15:01:57  
The hardest thing about OAT lance is the VNM, and I think Blob is actually the easy part. It is the freaking LL that IMO is the hardest part. And trust me, I can duo it with ease with the help of terrain, but the amount of time it needs to kill the thing and have it turn into brown color is annoying.... I went 1/9 on color change on my last baby blob. After I was done, I was glad that I didn't have to do any LL anymore. Unfortunately I am recently working on Caladbolg and it needs 6 x LL...... good thing is that it is just 6 kills instead of 6 color changes, and luckily killed it 6 times without it changing color so I got all 6 done in a few hours.

But yea, the hardest part is definitely LL.... Blob itself is cake tho it always make you want to kill yourself when no baby drops.... I own 3 OAT weapons, GS, Scythe, and Polearm, and Polearm is by far the hardest one to finish thanks to LL.
 Quetzalcoatl.Natlow
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By Quetzalcoatl.Natlow 2010-12-29 15:15:50  
Bismarck.Luces said:
High my names math: So usually on drg I'm at 50% critical hit rate in abyssea. 50% critical hit rate vs 53% critical hit rate is an increase in frequency of critical hits by hundredths of a percent and you think that's better then an actual noticeable increase in damage? I think a majority of y'all should take statistic, if you can handle the math gaming statistics, and realize that if you took that as a business model to a company and told them you wanted a 3% increase on something that is already as high as 50% at the cost of loosing a constant increase in profits. They wouldn't just laugh at you they would fire your *** and you would be like the rest of the US right now unemplyed probably longer then everyone else if you think that 53% is uber good compaired to 50% + damage increase. I also never found a passage saying which WS gearing/atma he needed help on. I would assume drakesbane, but what about for the empy. ws or penta thrust(I know plenty of people not on floor 100)?

I think he's trying to talk about whether the 3% crit rate on Zahak's Mail is worth it (presumably over Twilight Mail). He seems to be speaking in derp though.
 Lakshmi.Vitali
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By Lakshmi.Vitali 2010-12-29 15:19:05  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Why do you care about parses?

Because it's imperical data, which is much more credable than someone's anecdote of how omfg amazing it is. I'm not against the polearm, I just want proof that it's worthwhile before I invest my time in the trial. I'm sure you've noticed, but a majority of the posters on this, and most other FFXI forums are retarded.

It would be nice for someone to show their gear setup, then post a parse of them alongside another drg using a high damage polearm, showing their WS average, frequency, etc. Some amoutn of control would be required (same atmas, same haste, etc).

I would happily do this if I knew someone on lakshmi that had the polearm done but at the moment, I do not. Most drg I come across on this server are terribly geared (looking at you, full perle).
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-12-29 15:28:40  
Valefor.Setsugekka said:
But yea, the hardest part is definitely LL.... Blob itself is cake tho it always make you want to kill yourself when no baby drops.... I own 3 OAT weapons, GS, Scythe, and Polearm, and Polearm is by far the hardest one to finish thanks to LL.

I dunno. I had a lot of trouble getting people to halp with Blob whereas I only need myself for LL. I went 1/~30 on my first colour change but I was supremely lucky with the others, never going higher than 1/3. I did Shoggoth too though which sped up the process considerably.
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2010-12-29 15:29:42  
Lakshmi.Vitali said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Why do you care about parses?
Because it's imperical data, which is much more credable than someone's anecdote of how omfg amazing it is. I'm not against the polearm, I just want proof that it's worthwhile before I invest my time in the trial. I'm sure you've noticed, but a majority of the posters on this, and most other FFXI forums are retarded. It would be nice for someone to show their gear setup, then post a parse of them alongside another drg using a high damage polearm, showing their WS average, frequency, etc. Some amoutn of control would be required (same atmas, same haste, etc). I would happily do this if I knew someone on lakshmi that had the polearm done but at the moment, I do not. Most drg I come across on this server are terribly geared (looking at you, full perle).

Hey full perle is where it's at! Ragnarok had ONE OF THE BEST dragoons to grace vanadiel who sported full perle with his gungnir until a couple weeks ago! He has a relic so he is clearly the expert. :D
 Lakshmi.Vitali
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By Lakshmi.Vitali 2010-12-29 15:33:01  
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Lakshmi.Vitali said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Why do you care about parses?
Because it's imperical data, which is much more credable than someone's anecdote of how omfg amazing it is. I'm not against the polearm, I just want proof that it's worthwhile before I invest my time in the trial. I'm sure you've noticed, but a majority of the posters on this, and most other FFXI forums are retarded. It would be nice for someone to show their gear setup, then post a parse of them alongside another drg using a high damage polearm, showing their WS average, frequency, etc. Some amoutn of control would be required (same atmas, same haste, etc). I would happily do this if I knew someone on lakshmi that had the polearm done but at the moment, I do not. Most drg I come across on this server are terribly geared (looking at you, full perle).
Hey full perle is where it's at! Ragnarok had ONE OF THE BEST dragoons to grace vanadiel who sported full perle with his gungnir until a couple weeks ago! He has a relic so he is clearly the expert. :D

Lakshmi has much of this with Apocalypse.