Ochain

I wish i could do that but as a Taru i usually use mounted champ+SS+ebon hoof/aquatic ardor idk why ppl say nin better than pld tanking most NINs i know hardly break 2kHP in aby 1 AoE nuke/tp move usually a next round comes after = dead NIN or some NMs that curse and then a bad move BAM! dead NIN

... But my taru thf and blu breaks 2k hp without atmas or food in normal tp gear :(.

Well, yes. you can gather data fairly quicker via hundred fists. But i think I'd just go grab about 20~ chigoes in abyssea attowha. No NMs involved and its constant rapid fire.

But.. before all that.. What are we gathering proc rate data on? When did proc rates even come up? I seem to have missed it.


Out of something like 10+ Pantokrators, I died twice to low HP CS. Sometimes you just get unlucky. I'd say that for the most part, going for increased DMG was worth it.

my nin(nontaru) hits about 2.8k+ in abyssea wit GH/RR/Apoc >.>; also; migiwari is a lifesaver etc.

Well i guess most NINs underappreciate abyssite of merit and furtherance personally im 4/5 on merit and 2/3 on furtherance if the influence is good on heros zones i break 3.3k w/o atmas on my PLD/WAR (i hate to tank /NIN)

Yeah I'm a little one D:

Out of something like 10+ Pantokrators, I died twice to low HP CS. Sometimes you just get unlucky. I'd say that for the most part, going for increased DMG was worth it.[/quote]
2/10+ is alot... and it's just 1 atma what ones were you using that were so important? Also I might add it gives haste and fast cast :)

YAY /highfive btw you are my twin lol just looked at ur char pic ^_^ blonde lil ponytail FTW!

My usual DD atma set is Razed Ruins, Apoc, and Gnarled Horn. I'd say RR and Apoc are non-negotiable if you actually want to have decent DMG output. So that leaves GH. The DD side of GH is the +20% crit rate, which is quite notable. Then there's the reduced TP feed via AGI+, and the counter+.

In any case, those two deaths happened in some of the earlier fights, and it didn't happen again once I started bringing my WHM alt. The other whm could focus on the DDs, and I'd take care of myself.

I'd prefer not to reduce my DMG output unless its absolutely necessary. And it doesn't look like it is.

1. Most ppl say PLD sux because they have never seen a good DD PLD like Martel in action (26%haste tp gear, CDC, skilled, DD atmas, Ochain)
2. If you put MNK and PLD on mob then PLD will tank more because of faster swinging.
3. If you put one DD and PLD on mob and merit Cover like me then PLD will tank almost full fight on 90% mobs because after stagger (w/e which one) the fight usually takes 1 minute and Cover last 35-50sec.
4. If you are lowmanning for yellow then instead of going WHM+DD+BLM you can go PLD+BRD+BLM. You cover more yellow and Almace PLD on double march will out dmg any other DD w/o them.
5. New mobs that SE showed in news clearly wont be in abyssea. I have no idea if the main tp moves that they will have are physical or if maybe they can strip players but there is a big chance that pure DD jobs might have a problem tanking them at least in low man groups.
6. When I think good Ochain+Almace PLD is far from obsolete I really appreciate so much whining from playerbase because maybe my already great for me PLD will be even stronger after SE "fix" it :D

Why isn't the BLM subbing BRD? If you care about !! proc its the most efficient combo. A DD or PLD shouldn't "need" Marches to be functional so I don't see that as a valid argument, sure song buffs help but they help both not just one over the other.

If you have parses of fairly equally geared/skilled/buffed DDs vs. your or any Almace PLD you'd consider good pulling ahead of the DD I'm sure I'm not alone here in wanting to see them.

I think you need to read what you just wrote.
1. BLM can sub brd that's true but with pld he can sub /nin and then PLD can sub /war
2. That's true marches benefit all players but (seriously I have no idea why I even need to explain it lol) in:
- group A: blm/brd+dd/nin(or nin/war)+whm only march you can get is gimped advance march
- group B: blm/nin+pld/war+brd/whm you gaining 2 full buffed marches and have access to /war

Mnk/nin(Veret) with gimped march wont outdd pld/war(ochain+almace) on two buffed march.

Don't need parses to see that Almace Pld won't be pulling ahead of another Empy DD (especially if you're comparing to a Vereth Mnk or Kannagi Nin), and that's with giving the Pld Marches.

I usually find your posts pretty informative Atoreis and don't want to get into a ***fest, but a few things you're leaving out:

DoT of Almace Pld is still pretty shitty, even with ODD (nothing compared to Mnk or Nin, or especially War). CDC also hits lower average WS damage than Smite/Fury, though similar to Blade: Hi.

In your Pld/Brd/Blm setup you're also not accounting for the Pld having to cure themselves (Ochain reduces 85% of the standard melee damage taken, but you're still taking WS/AOE/magic damage and cure 4 takes time to cast and multiple casts to make up the large HP in Abyssea.

Ochain/Almace does help Pld be more than a waste of space (by contributing to actual DPS of the fight), but you're still not putting out the same DPS numbers of a good DD that was already tanking -everything- just fine without you.

That's not to say I don't expect to see Pld take a more front seat again once we move to the newer non abyssea content (Voidwalker), but you'll have to account for not having 80% crit rate then as well (which will hurt other DDs just as much as it will hurt CDC Plds). I'm keeping my Pld capped out on gear for this reason, but that doesn't mean that I kid myself in thinking bringing out Almace/Aegis is anything more than something to do to change things up every once in a while when I'm bored with Mnk/Nin/War/etc.

This is something no Pro-PLD person accounts for. Barring the fact that you're requiring *two* empyrean items to try and match up to 1 from a proper DD.

Using your "group B" replace the PLD/WAR with a MNK/WAR or a NIN/WAR(and have the BLM/RDM for Dispel or /WHM for another Cure IV)
In both of my alternative options you up the damage dealt and still get similarly effective, if not better results.

I guess you could argue the 800-1k HP from PLD's Cure IV + BRD's Cure IV combined is needed but at that point I'd bring a WHM. If this is the argument then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Everything it's true but I will say it's highly dependent of what mob you fight (I should have said it at start). For example on back tanking wyrms when all damage is physical (BLM can easily stun all damage spells) with Ochain (I'm not sure of that because I will have Ochain tomorrow but I believe it is like this) even BRD solo can handle curing (btw I'm not sure but isn't /nin very important for blm if doing wyrms via back tanking?). Maybe I'm poor MNK but as Galka on Azdaja after dispel I need to full time PDT gear because curse->spike is dead meat otherwise (it still can be in pdt) and even petri 2 crits or w/e other combo including 2-3 hits taken + spike is end of story (ofc you could use spellcast or risk changing to pdt everytime you see you are cursed or petrified). I also need to sub /blm (havent try /drk) because taking -ga on chest followed with spike (pretty common if you TP it while it casting) is also end of fight (again probably very fast whm or spellcast could help if you throw cure VI between ga and spike).

What I'm trying to say is like I forgot account time spent on curing myself (or rather I forgot to mention it depends on mob) you forgot that MNK will spend far less time in TP gear then PLD.
I have also no idea how higher tier NMs resist enlight but avg 35damage added effect on hit that avg do around 100 is worth to mention.

Some mobs like Bukhis and Ironclads are another story. Ochain PLD will be almost never stunned or get amnesia on Ironclads which alone pull him ahead of other DD probably. Same goes for cruor buffs on Bukhis. Losing them will hurt a lot for damage and even more important put most DD in great danger of dieing from ruinous scythe -> hit (gogo 102 max hp :D).

There are also mobs like Orthrus when WAR and MNK can go all out almost full time and then PLD will fall behind by fair margin.

NIN and MNK also have ODD on main/sub hand only which really is significant loss.

Summing up: Abyssea is easy but it's not like NIN,WAR,MNK will spend all the time TPing in best (damage vise) equip when PLD will.

PS. This post is not related to PLD+BLM+BRD party. I was saying about PLD overall here.

I don't know too many PLD's like Martel, that's for sure. I'm not just saying that because we're friends (anyone on Ragnarok can tell you how grossly critical I can be). Your point is still valid though.

As long as PLD's enmity doesn't decay, the enemy's object of affection will continue to bounce between them and the DDs, Empyreans or not. Once you reach cHate cap and vHate cap, as long as you hit fast enough to keep vHate capped, the monster will turn to you. Empyrean DDs reach this cap faster but that's irrelevant if the fight lasts longer than one minute. If Almace is on par with Kannagi, PLD will reach the hate cap rather quickly (Though not as early as other Empyrean users). They won't keep hate, no one will in fact, but they'll be the heartiest tank there is.

I agree it changes drastically based on what you're fighting. I could see Almace(or excal)/Ochain Pld doing substantially better on Iron Giants, and even Azdaja especially. I didn't want to come off as saying "lolPld, it can never compare", I was more trying to reign in some honest comparison between the job classes (you'll find me one of the longest Pld job champions when it comes to defending the job and it's merits/ability, even though I don't post on BG anymore lol).


I think on average both Pld and Mnk (or Nin) will spend about the same amount of time "out of standard TP gear". For instance, my Pld spellcast:

1. Swaps in MDB during Spells cast on me (or resist set if I'm in my resist SC group).
2. Swaps in Spell interupt/fast cast/sheild gear during utsu.
3. Emnity/fast cast/haste during casting.
4. PDT/Shield during TP moves (I need to run some tests with Ochain to see how much shield skill effects the block rate, but I need a ton on Aegis to cap it out on anything tough).
5. Emnity/JA gear for any JAs.

While my Mnk spellcast swaps in:

1. MDT during casting.
2. Spell interupt/haste during utsu (if /nin).
3. PDT during enemy TP moves and low HP.

Nin has a few more rule sets since I swap between evasion DD sets and pure DD sets based on my shadow absorption rate and the mob I'm fighting, as well as the swaps for Ninjitsu, Spells, PDT, etc.

But the point remains: Pld will be swapping just as much out of their TP gear, and I didn't even factor in curing. The major advantage goes to Pld when the other Melee are being inhibited significantly via status effects (Giants, Azdaja, etc, however when Mnk/Nin, I never found Azdaja that bad (if the healer was on the ball)).

As for Enlight, it's not bad, but the decaying damage over time makes it less than amazing, especially having to stop and reapply it so often, and it does resist to ***on most notable things.


Mentioned Ironclads and agree with ya on them. As for Bhukis I've never had a problem with him on Mnk or Nin with buffs being dispelled (and have done about half a dozen bhukis weapons with friends). However I would say not having to *** walk back to the cruor NPC after every *** fight would be great.


Agreed, I've not seen Almace come within half the damage of Vereth/Ukon on things they can go all out against.


It is and it isn't honestly. You're only getting ODD from one hand, but you also get the added benefit of off hand bonuses (Mnk's h2h skill/damage calc that gives it stupid amounts of DoT, Nin's Dual Weild and added off hand weapon bonus like 10% crit damage bonus for example). Almace/Ochain Pld gets the added shield block TP bonus ofcourse, but that's limited to how fast the enemy is attacking and still leaves something to be desired in your TP phase.


Think this is where we disagreed, but I addressed it up top.

Didn't mean such a long response, just wanted to talk through a few things. I'm optimistic about what Pld will become up to 99, and it will probably always be my favorite job. I'm just currently a bit depressed about it (with Ochain taking up a lot of what I wanted Aegis to be, and me not getting to play Pld very much even when it's damn well geared). My biggest concern with Almace at the moment is that for Pld to "really come back", we need to move outside Abyssea or really change the job. Moving outside Abyssea means losing a lot of the buffs tha make CDC great (crit rate, crit damage, TA). I may just spend some of the gil I've been hoarding and finish Excal, but I'm curious to see what they're doing about the Excal trials and how Dynamis changes will effect the currency market, before jumping into the next money pit.


This from twitter or just wishful thinking?

Not that I disagree with the overall point here, but the way this is phrased seems to imply that you wouldn't be blocking the WS and AoE dmg. And if said WS/AoE dmg is magical then you certainly wouldn't be. But for any physical WS you'll be getting that very same dmg reduction as on melee hits. Not to mention preventing whatever nasty added effect said WS might have.

If that wasn't what you were trying to say, and I'm just picking up on a quirk in your turn of phrase then, please, disregard.

And, yeah. Curing to full HP in abyssea can take a long time with cure IV. Cure V for PLD SE? Or a PLD unique High enmity high potency cure spell? I'd be happy either way really. Just let me cure for more in less time.

I took it as sarcasm personally (or "trolling" as the kids say).

Ok now i need to strongly disagree.
PLD/war Ochain+Almace in abyssea especially solo dd/tanking will be in this Your text to link here... for 99% of the time. no need to sawp for any enmity,fastcast,spell interrupt. Swaps only for pdt/shield or mdt/mdb for a 1 sec during spell or tp move. That's remind me NIN need to cast spells which from I remember was slowing a fight a lot on mobs with good acc.

Ya was referring to AoE magic TP moves (which are pretty prevalent), and any TP moves that can't be blocked by Shield.

Agree with you though, I'd kill baby penguins for high emnity, high HP restoring cure spell for Pld. Honestly that alone would make me pick up the job more.


Guess I was still accounting for you casting Flash, Enlight, self cures, and Reprisal. Also I was assuming /nin for Azdaja since his normal hits still include added effect (even if you're blocking added effect during his WSs).

PDT/MDT swaps are more like 3-5 seconds (based on your latency, spellcast rules, and the move/spell).

And yes Nin will have their DPS lowered a lot by having to cast significantly more to keep their shadows up, so Pld/War has a large advantage there when comparing to something that will take shadows on a Nin frequently.

I'm not arguing that Ochain Pld can't stay in that TP set significantly more than a non Ochain Pld, but you're still doing the same swaps in gear for each action (based on your sub).

edit: Martel already responded.

Melee hits can't fire while casting, and on JA use there's a brief delay afterwards before your melee rounds continue. So there really no reason not to be swapping in gear for any actions. And swapping in fast cast reduces casting time, so your spell will resolve sooner and you can get back to DD'ing.


I'd love to do some block rate tests myself, but short of doing it manually, and marking down blocked and unblocked, I'm not sure how I could accurately test it. This would drive me completely nuts. And it'd be slow as hell since you can't just get several mobs at a time to speed up the hit rate.

I've tried parsing, but the dmg ranges for blocked and unblocked always seem to overlap and I can never tell where to stop counting hits as blocks as the dmg goes up. If anyone more math savvy than I am knows a good way to analyze block rate via parse data, do tell.

Also, you mentioned 85% dmg reduction for Ochain. Was there a good precise test for this? I haven't seen any and the only test I've done wasn't a very good one, although the results were pretty similar.

Edit: Didn't want to double post.

Just used 85% as an estimate based on a guessed modal result of ~90% block rate with standard abyssea NMs that are lvl 95~. I've yet to see quality data to give a real number.

The way I did Aegis block rate tests was to take about 5000 samples from mobs with known lvls (50 to 85, back when I was 75), and examine the modes of the solution space.

With the two options being shield block and non shield block (for damage taken), you would expect a bi-modal distribution of your data, with two statistically normal curves around the two modes.

As you've already stated though, the curves do overlap due to the normal distribution of SE's damage calculations. However once you extract the mode, and relate it to your lvl and the mob's lvl, along with shield skill. You can estimate (with decent certainty) the shield block rate at each instance.

Basically: If you parse ~4000 hits on various mobs (preferably with known lvls) at various lvls of shield skill, I can examine the data for ya and do some statistical analysis.

The hard part with Aegis was having to do repetitive runs (i.e. take a few thousand samples of a lvl 50 mob with +10, 20, 30, 40 sheild skill), then repeat for lvl 60, 70, etc. etc. Basically finding out what the "base block rate for a enemy that is equal in level", and how that curve decays around your level cap, and how much shield skill is needed to shift that mode more towards the shield block cap).

For Ochain I suspect the mode for it's block rate is just substantially higher, and thus you don't need tons of shield gear until we start seeing much higher lvl enemies (and even then it should still beat the max block rate of an Aegis user sporting all shield gear). Very curious though as to what the actual numbers are =/.

Hmmm. At the moment, the only parse sample of that size I have lying around would probly only be good for a block rate cap test. It would be nice to find out if Ochain's block cap is 95%, like alot of thigs in FFXI.

Its 5k+ hits sample of EP murrain chigoes. No PDT, no buffs, 369 shield skill(base+merits). Originally I wanted to use it to figure out Ochain's DMG reduction on block. But I realized afterwards that since they hit for so little per hit it wouldn't be very accurate. Too many hits getting capped at 1 dmg. I took a twin sample with creed hands +2 on in an attempt to figure out the shield defense bonus increase, but it'd have the same accuracy issues as the other test.

Hmmm, I also have a rather huge sample from a very painful Hydra solo attempt. It probly wouldn't help for a shield kill test since I was swapping in skill for casts, but it might be usable as a dmg- test. Or just as a Basic Ochain vs lvl 80 mob test.

Well, if you think the data would still be useful/usable I can post or PM it.

For future testing I think my main issue would be finding mobs of a static, known lvl that aren't nasty NMs of some kind.

I think greater colibri are the most mapped out stat-wise mob in the game. I don't know this to be fact, but I remember most parsers containing their info etc.