Possible Use For PLD?

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Paladin » Possible use for PLD?
Possible use for PLD?
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 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 11:30:34  
Cerberus.Finalvegeta said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
SAM only needed a brd and a rdm @@;
Depends on what you were fighting and how much healing you ended up needing. A rdm needed nothing :)
Oh, I read that wrong. Silly manaburns.
Hey magic dmg is still the best dmg dealt to tp given out there!!! Which might become important again
MBs are the ***!
What's a MB...? ;)

Err yeah that too... though really the slots needed to setup the MB is probably better spent just putting another blm in. Plus eww meleeing
 Fenrir.Fearforever
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By Fenrir.Fearforever 2011-02-24 11:30:43  
MBs make BLMs die which is good :D
 Cerberus.Finalvegeta
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By Cerberus.Finalvegeta 2011-02-24 11:38:43  
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Cerberus.Finalvegeta said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
SAM only needed a brd and a rdm @@;
Depends on what you were fighting and how much healing you ended up needing. A rdm needed nothing :)
Oh, I read that wrong. Silly manaburns.
Hey magic dmg is still the best dmg dealt to tp given out there!!! Which might become important again
MBs are the ***!
What's a MB...? ;)

Err yeah that too... though really the slots needed to setup the MB is probably better spent just putting another blm in. Plus eww meleeing




Nin+whm (many ppl duo like that) + thf + blm for proccing. Normal lowman setup.

THf and NIN get tp in about the same time. Duo SC everytime you can > BLM MBs. Profit! Too bad most ppl don't do that these days :/ so much damage.

There is a lot of potential in Mbing since BLMs are usually needed to proc and if you are lucky with the SCs (in my case it was Mercy>Hi then you can do some serious damage. Ofc if you play like ppl used to do it... then it sucks. Ie waiting 1 minute for the other guy to get tp to do a lvl1 sc so blms can MB. yay.
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 Sylph.Rorrick
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By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-02-24 11:50:20  
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
True. But on average it will be better...

And sure drk/nin was decent. However some things it just wasn't as good at. Like anything that would take shadows down before recast. Survivability sometimes did matter.

Liked nin/drk better anyways. They generally had more of a clue what they were doing. And overall I generally fought rather low man with the intent to have the mob rarely tp and pretty much the only dmg the tanks would take is from tp moves.

It's kinda a trust issue really. I've known pups that cure really well. No way I'm going to say people should use them as a main healer even though there is one or 2 I would trust with that and would possibly be better than the others outside of abyssea

What mob would take shadows down before recast besides like Byakko? NIN/DRK was in fact a better tank on that (though if you had 2 tanks it didn't matter), but lol Byakko. Srs cats are srs.

Tyger is sort of a *** too.
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 11:52:38  
Well yeah I'm thinking outside of abyssea where the more you melee the more support jobs you need. Plus not really needing procs
 Sylph.Rorrick
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By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-02-24 12:01:51  
PLD is outclassed outside and has been since the 75 cap.
 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2011-02-24 12:01:57  
I can see SE changing the game and adding !! procking for all NMs inside/outside of abyssea.

Well prolly only Grellow and Blue!

gogogo increased Wlegs drop rate!
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 12:07:22  
Bahamut.Zorander said:
I can see SE changing the game and adding !! procking for all NMs inside/outside of abyssea
I proc'd red!! In WoE...
 Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-02-24 12:09:15  
My favorite part of this thread is where people continually say "just fix enmity in the game" as if making an in game mechanics change like this would be so simple. So many things would need to be accounted for in making even the slightest tweak to enmity it could easily make detrimental changes that would alter the game in a terrible way.
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-02-24 12:11:35  
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
My favorite part of this thread is where people continually say "just fix enmity in the game" as if making an in game mechanics change like this would be so simple. So many things would need to be accounted for in making even the slightest tweak to enmity it could easily make detrimental changes that would alter the game in a terrible way.
Like the RDM spell nerf?
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 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2011-02-24 12:15:05  
I don't think they meant to nerf rdm as much as they did..it changed alot and ruined Nin/Drk in the process.

What I can't figure out is why they did it in the first place. Did that many ppl really complain about Nin/drk and Rdm/nin tanks?

 Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-02-24 12:17:06  
Ramuh.Krizz said:
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
My favorite part of this thread is where people continually say "just fix enmity in the game" as if making an in game mechanics change like this would be so simple. So many things would need to be accounted for in making even the slightest tweak to enmity it could easily make detrimental changes that would alter the game in a terrible way.
Like the RDM spell nerf?

i was either on my 2 year break or my 3 year break when they did that nerf so i dunno >< when did they do it like 2008ish?
 Asura.Arkanethered
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-02-24 12:30:39  
It was fairly recent before the release of Abyssea. iirc.

Hurt drk/nin as well... but not as much.
 Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-02-24 12:32:03  
aww ok i came back most recently in September
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 12:39:00  
They also ninja'd in nerfing repose's emnity too.

Also you could call the way they've made 99% of the nms out there starting a good year or 2 ago immune to grav and bind a nerf against rdms too. Kinda hurt rdm soloing alot.

Also the huge dmg increase in abyssea was a huge change with far reaching consequences to emnity since the system and caps were intended for lvl 75 without atmas etc. As you can see in this thread and many others that take about tanking it has had some rather bad effects.

On the other hand doing something simple like just raising the cap for pld would be rather small and couldn't possibly do anything but let pld hold hate a little better
 
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 Sylph.Rorrick
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By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-02-24 13:59:07  
Bahamut.Dasva said:
They also ninja'd in nerfing repose's emnity too.

Also you could call the way they've made 99% of the nms out there starting a good year or 2 ago immune to grav and bind a nerf against rdms too. Kinda hurt rdm soloing alot.

Also the huge dmg increase in abyssea was a huge change with far reaching consequences to emnity since the system and caps were intended for lvl 75 without atmas etc. As you can see in this thread and many others that take about tanking it has had some rather bad effects.

On the other hand doing something simple like just raising the cap for pld would be rather small and couldn't possibly do anything but let pld hold hate a little better

PLD was useless outside before the cap increases. DDs capped enmity just as quickly outside as they do inside. The only difference is now things die faster. Abyssea had no real effect on enmity gains.
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-02-24 16:56:54  
Sylph.Rorrick said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
They also ninja'd in nerfing repose's emnity too. Also you could call the way they've made 99% of the nms out there starting a good year or 2 ago immune to grav and bind a nerf against rdms too. Kinda hurt rdm soloing alot. Also the huge dmg increase in abyssea was a huge change with far reaching consequences to emnity since the system and caps were intended for lvl 75 without atmas etc. As you can see in this thread and many others that take about tanking it has had some rather bad effects. On the other hand doing something simple like just raising the cap for pld would be rather small and couldn't possibly do anything but let pld hold hate a little better
PLD was useless outside before the cap increases. DDs capped enmity just as quickly outside as they do inside. The only difference is now things die faster. Abyssea had no real effect on enmity gains.

While I do agree PLD is in sorry shape at the moment, I can't agree that Abyssea (atma/cruror buffs/etc.) and level cap increase had nothing to do with how well DD perform now against HNM-tier targets, or that PLD was a poor performer during 75.

DD's couldn't cap hate as quickly as they do now against those ultra-high-level endgame targets because their individual strikes and WS spikes were far smaller than they are currently with atma and the various cruror bonuses. Atonement-spamming PLD/NIN could EASILY hold hate off of the most über DD, mostly because 720-750 damage atonement spam (coupled with PLD's enmity tools) represented comparatively tremendous amounts of VE generation. Nowadays that sort of spike is a joke.

Apart from DD zerg setups, any long term fights (like against Proto-Ultima for example) hardly ever used MNK or WAR tanks. PLD/NIN had a solid role during that era of "small DD hits and spikes" and high-level-mob/low-player-level performance difference.

When end-game settles in the 99-range, we'll see what road SE takes for their game. Abyssea was certainly a "give players everything they might possibly want, including God Mode (primeval brew)" which contrasts to the end game of just a few years prior which was "let's give players super long endurance fights that last 2 to 8 hours to make them work for drops." PLD/NIN, as designed for 75, really shined only in the latter situation...going back to something like that might make players groan but would make PLD happy again LOL.
 Quetzalcoatl.Neisan
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By Quetzalcoatl.Neisan 2011-02-24 17:00:24  
The worse your DD and mages were the more attractive a Paladin tank was, while DD and mages/Mp efficiency has improved in levels Paladin hasn't, that's the problem.
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 Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 17:18:40  
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Hey magic dmg is still the best dmg dealt to tp given out there!!! Which might become important again

If you're really worried about TP, throwing SMNs at it is still the best option.

Fenrir.Schutz said:
Apart from DD zerg setups, any long term fights (like against Proto-Ultima for example) hardly ever used MNK or WAR tanks. PLD/NIN had a solid role during that era of "small DD hits and spikes" and high-level-mob/low-player-level performance difference.

I'm going to have to disagree here. DRK/NIN was a far better tank, and it also had the utility of zerging the last few % points to make the fight less messy. D:
 Sylph.Rorrick
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By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-02-24 17:18:42  
Fenrir.Schutz said:
Sylph.Rorrick said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
They also ninja'd in nerfing repose's emnity too. Also you could call the way they've made 99% of the nms out there starting a good year or 2 ago immune to grav and bind a nerf against rdms too. Kinda hurt rdm soloing alot. Also the huge dmg increase in abyssea was a huge change with far reaching consequences to emnity since the system and caps were intended for lvl 75 without atmas etc. As you can see in this thread and many others that take about tanking it has had some rather bad effects. On the other hand doing something simple like just raising the cap for pld would be rather small and couldn't possibly do anything but let pld hold hate a little better
PLD was useless outside before the cap increases. DDs capped enmity just as quickly outside as they do inside. The only difference is now things die faster. Abyssea had no real effect on enmity gains.

While I do agree PLD is in sorry shape at the moment, I can't agree that Abyssea (atma/cruror buffs/etc.) and level cap increase had nothing to do with how well DD perform now against HNM-tier targets, or that PLD was a poor performer during 75.

DD's couldn't cap hate as quickly as they do now against those ultra-high-level endgame targets because their individual strikes and WS spikes were far smaller than they are currently with atma and the various cruror bonuses. Atonement-spamming PLD/NIN could EASILY hold hate off of the most über DD, mostly because 720-750 damage atonement spam (coupled with PLD's enmity tools) represented comparatively tremendous amounts of VE generation. Nowadays that sort of spike is a joke.

Apart from DD zerg setups, any long term fights (like against Proto-Ultima for example) hardly ever used MNK or WAR tanks. PLD/NIN had a solid role during that era of "small DD hits and spikes" and high-level-mob/low-player-level performance difference.

When end-game settles in the 99-range, we'll see what road SE takes for their game. Abyssea was certainly a "give players everything they might possibly want, including God Mode (primeval brew)" which contrasts to the end game of just a few years prior which was "let's give players super long endurance fights that last 2 to 8 hours to make them work for drops." PLD/NIN, as designed for 75, really shined only in the latter situation...going back to something like that might make players groan but would make PLD happy again LOL.

No.

DDs have always and will continue to cap hate much faster than PLD can. If your 750 Atonements were enough to hold hate then you play with some really shitty WARs and SAMs.

Pick something from 75 content you think a PLD was beneficial for and I or someone else will give you a better job for it. Proto-Ultima can be done by anyone with an MDT set for Citadel Buster, and PLD is actually worse there because of the hate reset. DRK was a lot better for Ultima than PLD.

Neisan nailed this entire issue; the better your group was, the worse PLD got. Abyssea has let even the horrible players tank with their faces, but moving back outside isn't going make PLD magically not suck for anyone who didn't already suck. Bad players don't make a bad job good.
 Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 17:21:30  
Sylph.Rorrick said:
No.

DDs have always and will continue to cap hate much faster than PLD can. If your 750 Atonements were enough to hold hate then you play with some really shitty WARs and SAMs.

Pick something from 75 content you think a PLD was beneficial for and I or someone else will give you a better job for it. Proto-Ultima can be done by anyone with an MDT set for Citadel Buster, and PLD is actually worse there because of the hate reset.

Neisan nailed this entire issue; the better your group was, the worse PLD got. Abyssea has let even the horrible players tank with their faces, but moving back outside isn't going make PLD magically not suck for anyone who didn't already suck. Bad players don't make a bad job good.

This. Name anything and I'll tell you a better way to do it :s
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-02-24 17:23:42  
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Sylph.Rorrick said:
No.

DDs have always and will continue to cap hate much faster than PLD can. If your 750 Atonements were enough to hold hate then you play with some really shitty WARs and SAMs.

Pick something from 75 content you think a PLD was beneficial for and I or someone else will give you a better job for it. Proto-Ultima can be done by anyone with an MDT set for Citadel Buster, and PLD is actually worse there because of the hate reset.

Neisan nailed this entire issue; the better your group was, the worse PLD got. Abyssea has let even the horrible players tank with their faces, but moving back outside isn't going make PLD magically not suck for anyone who didn't already suck. Bad players don't make a bad job good.

This. Name anything and I'll tell you a better way to do it :s

Weighing down my papers in the wind as I whip mah hair back 'N forth
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 Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 17:27:52  
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Weighing down my papers in the wind as I whip mah hair back 'N forth

o.o;
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-02-24 17:31:12  
I won't argue there. There is certainly the case that all the DDs I played with sucked, but I would have been more inclined to believe that it was the job's abilities and not lack of player skill on all of those people's parts that allowed my PLD (let alone so many others here) to perform well in those circumstances.
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-02-24 17:32:24  
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Weighing down my papers in the wind as I whip mah hair back 'N forth

o.o;
A...a paper weight would be the implied joke here..pld...being one.
Don't judge me!
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 Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 17:35:01  
Fenrir.Schutz said:
I won't argue there. There is certainly the case that all the DDs I played with sucked, but I would have been more inclined to believe that it was the job's abilities and not lack of player skill on all of those people's parts that allowed my PLD (let alone so many others here) to perform well in those circumstances.

PLD is an 'easier' job, but it's by no means the 'best' job. A lot of the jobs, for example DRK, require a lot of PDT/MDT gear to be efficient tanks... however PLDs(and every job) really should have those sets as well.

Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
A...a paper weight would be the implied joke here..pld...being one.
Don't judge me!

oooooooooooooo I get it.
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 17:37:59  
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Weighing down my papers in the wind as I whip mah hair back 'N forth

o.o;
A...a paper weight would be the implied joke here..pld...being one.
Don't judge me!


if it makes you feel any better i thought it was pretty good :o
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-02-24 17:38:42  
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said:
Weighing down my papers in the wind as I whip mah hair back 'N forth

o.o;
A...a paper weight would be the implied joke here..pld...being one.
Don't judge me!


if it makes you feel any better thought it was pretty good :o
swoosh, 3 points for humoring solemn potatoes
 Shiva.Xet
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By Shiva.Xet 2011-02-24 19:15:34  
I'm gonna level paladin to 90 i think. Mainly cos i have nearly all the +1 gear (no shock as ppl don't want) I also may get a free ochain as ppl will not want the spikes that i know. mainly gonna level just so it is capped.

I played pld at 75 HNM, I loved it.
Do I hope it's fixed?: Yes
Will it be?: /doubt
Even if it is will it be the best tank: No, Probably the universal safest though.
Either way will my taru look cute as *** at 90 in AF3 +1/2? *** yea.

Just waiting for abyssea to end now. As fun as epidamage is I want a challenge again. Atm my only challenge is saving stones.
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