Strafe Efficiency?

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
言語: JP EN FR DE
日本語版のFFXIVPRO利用したい場合は、上記の"JP"を設定して、又はjp.ffxivpro.comを直接に利用してもいいです
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Strafe Efficiency?
Strafe Efficiency?
Offline
Posts: 10
By Ryufu 2011-05-20 01:49:57  
I am wondering about the Merit "Strafe" which increases Wyvern Accuracy. Has there been any parse or studies done on it? Is the DPS increase significant?

Thanks.
 Siren.Thoraeon
Offline
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: Thoraeon
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2011-05-20 02:32:51  
It only affects Breath Accuracy. I personally prefer 5/5 Deep Breathing, for its utility, and 5/5 Angon.
 Gilgamesh.Shadowreapper
Offline
サーバ: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
user: MrReapper
Posts: 34
By Gilgamesh.Shadowreapper 2011-05-20 10:13:28  
I would lvl deep breath 4/5, angon 5/5 and 1/5 empathy.
With only one empathy, you can give haste to your pet, which will increase his DPS more than strafe.
Tho, i never did math on strafe, i'm just going on a suposition.
Offline
Posts: 10
By Ryufu 2011-05-20 12:07:12  
Thanks for the answers thus far, but not quite what I am looking for. I need to know how well strafe can actually do. Although, question on the side, Empathy gives you TP from the Wyvern right? About how much usually?
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Sekundes
Posts: 4162
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-05-20 12:41:54  
Ryufu said:
Thanks for the answers thus far, but not quite what I am looking for. I need to know how well strafe can actually do. Although, question on the side, Empathy gives you TP from the Wyvern right? About how much usually?
Getting tp from the wyvern was a mod to spirit link, not empathy. But on that note, I don't think you can spirit link if your wyvern is 100% if you don't have empathy.

Edit- also the amount is 50% of your wyvern's current tp.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-20 12:57:59  
Even when hammering out ws's the wyverns breath damage is marginal at best. If you get strafe maybe put 1 into it. You're not going to see any kind of real increase from it (unless it's the difference between a resisted breath and not resisted breath and the minor macc on strafe isnt going to breach that gap often) so I'd say no.

I also never used Deep Breathing so i took it out. The infrequency using solo made it seem like a small "bonus" cure and I never found a time when I felt it vastly helped me out in a jam etc. During party battle, I would never use it because the additional job ability delay stunted my attack speed too much.

I caught a lot of flack for putting more than 1 into empathy for a long time but I still feel it's a sound decision. I can put my haste, songs, protect, regen all on my wyvern at once, whereas with only 1 merit he'd only be getting my haste every 5 minutes. Also, as Sek pointed out, without strafe you cannot spirit link tp out of your wyvern unless he is under 100% hp. You can if you put on wyvern hp gear to force him out of "full" but thats just tedious.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Sekundes
Posts: 4162
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-05-20 13:19:07  
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Even when hammering out ws's the wyverns breath damage is marginal at best. If you get strafe maybe put 1 into it. You're not going to see any kind of real increase from it (unless it's the difference between a resisted breath and not resisted breath and the minor macc on strafe isnt going to breach that gap often) so I'd say no.

I also never used Deep Breathing so i took it out. The infrequency using solo made it seem like a small "bonus" cure and I never found a time when I felt it vastly helped me out in a jam etc. During party battle, I would never use it because the additional job ability delay stunted my attack speed too much.

I caught a lot of flack for putting more than 1 into empathy for a long time but I still feel it's a sound decision. I can put my haste, songs, protect, regen all on my wyvern at once, whereas with only 1 merit he'd only be getting my haste every 5 minutes. Also, as Sek pointed out, without strafe you cannot spirit link tp out of your wyvern unless he is under 100% hp. You can if you put on wyvern hp gear to force him out of "full" but thats just tedious.
You accidently said you can't SL at 100% without strafe btw.

Also, you'd be lucky to get haste when you can only transfer one buff every 3 minutes, most of the time you get worthless buffs instead so I like having a few merits in so you can get a couple of things. Plus if you can get at least a bit of the duration of haste and marches on your wyvern that will beat the heck out of strafe.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-20 13:39:42  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said:
Ragnarok.Ashman said:
Even when hammering out ws's the wyverns breath damage is marginal at best. If you get strafe maybe put 1 into it. You're not going to see any kind of real increase from it (unless it's the difference between a resisted breath and not resisted breath and the minor macc on strafe isnt going to breach that gap often) so I'd say no. I also never used Deep Breathing so i took it out. The infrequency using solo made it seem like a small "bonus" cure and I never found a time when I felt it vastly helped me out in a jam etc. During party battle, I would never use it because the additional job ability delay stunted my attack speed too much. I caught a lot of flack for putting more than 1 into empathy for a long time but I still feel it's a sound decision. I can put my haste, songs, protect, regen all on my wyvern at once, whereas with only 1 merit he'd only be getting my haste every 5 minutes. Also, as Sek pointed out, without strafe you cannot spirit link tp out of your wyvern unless he is under 100% hp. You can if you put on wyvern hp gear to force him out of "full" but thats just tedious.
You accidently said you can't SL at 100% without strafe btw. Also, you'd be lucky to get haste when you can only transfer one buff every 3 minutes, most of the time you get worthless buffs instead so I like having a few merits in so you can get a couple of things. Plus if you can get at least a bit of the duration of haste and marches on your wyvern that will beat the heck out of strafe.

Spirit Link "■Cannot be used when your wyvern's HP is 100%" without empathy is what i meant, not strafe :x Sorry lol

On the haste transfer comment, I agree entirely. That's what I was trying to convey :/ I went 4/4 empathy just so I could stack multiple buffs on at a time (damn SE still wont give Ember re-raise).
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Sekundes
Posts: 4162
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-05-20 13:54:51  
Be nice if the wyvern has RR and it dies the game just gives your recall back. Not perfect but certainly nice for when it dies alot.
 Ragnarok.Amador
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Amador
Posts: 409
By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-05-20 21:34:25  
The thing about DRG merits is that they would all be extremely beneficial if you could 5/5 them all. Since we can't, the norm tends to be the best.

5/5 Angon, 4/5 Deep Breath and or 5/5 and 1/5 if you like spamming Spirit Link.

The thing about Empathy that sucks, is that it doesn't prioritize some important buffs like Shell or Haste. If it did you'd be more interested in 2 Empathy and 3 Deep Breathing.

However, "Your Wyvern's Hasso/Seigan effect wears off."

In regards to Strafe again though, on a parse it will show that your Wyvern's Breath damage is more consistent. Especially after taking damage, since they lose a good chunk of their accuracy after their HP drops.
 Quetzalcoatl.Tagrineth
Offline
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Tagrineth
Posts: 10
By Quetzalcoatl.Tagrineth 2011-05-24 04:19:16  
Strafe is definitely effective - I had 5/5 Strafe merits for a long time when my gear was still middle-of-the-road, it's basically a 100-point boost to all your WSes - but inside abyssea especially, the wyvern's breath is going to be pretty useless because of things like the mob outright dying before the breath goes off, or the wyvern itself dying, etc.

I currently use I think 2/5 Angon 3/5 Deep Breathing and 5/5 Empathy. 45sec is generally long enough on Angon to be relevant, and DB really doesn't need an optimal timer since it's an infrequent fringe ability anyway. Capped Empathy just guarantees that every relevant buff will transfer, period. None of the other options really give a significant boost anyway so why not simplify Empathy that much more?
[+]
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-24 08:03:36  
Quetzalcoatl.Tagrineth said:
Strafe is definitely effective - I had 5/5 Strafe merits for a long time when my gear was still middle-of-the-road, it's basically a 100-point boost to all your WSes - but inside abyssea especially, the wyvern's breath is going to be pretty useless because of things like the mob outright dying before the breath goes off, or the wyvern itself dying, etc. I currently use I think 2/5 Angon 3/5 Deep Breathing and 5/5 Empathy. 45sec is generally long enough on Angon to be relevant, and DB really doesn't need an optimal timer since it's an infrequent fringe ability anyway. Capped Empathy just guarantees that every relevant buff will transfer, period. None of the other options really give a significant boost anyway so why not simplify Empathy that much more?

I agree with your point on empathy. I was going to post a rebuttal to Amador's post saying something concerning the more empathy getting more chance for relevant buffs, but he's "touchy" and I chose not to. I cannot in good conscience agree with 2/5 angon merits however. The fights that last less than 90 seconds are not the fights that merit is intened for. To each their own however, and if I were OP I would be happy for the debates just to fuel my research on the subject before I test merits myself (and find what suits me and my playstyle).
 Ragnarok.Amador
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Amador
Posts: 409
By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-05-24 11:25:29  
Well, I said it was effective, it doesn't boost damage though just consistency of damage. If Wyvern HP is at 100% it generally won't have much of an effect, if Wyvern HP is below 100% then it will, however damage will be lower regardless since damage is dependent on HP.

+25 Wyvern Breath Accuracy is really nice, especially if you combine your breaths with certain pieces such as Wyrm Armet, Dragoon's Earring and Lancer's Torque.

Ever since we were given the ability to make our Wyverns use an Elemental Breath or a Cure Breath it's gotten even better. However, breaking it down to certain things, that are eventually needed for harder prey, that can assist in benefiting your damage and others is Angon and it is the only ability outside of Spirit Surge Jump that allows others to benefit from our being in the group.

Nothing dies in 1:30 unless you zerg it, and even then no one really cares to zerg much now a days. There hasn't been a monster released that has required a 30-45 second Angon which is why 5/5 always pulls ahead however you look at it.

5/5 Deep Breathing is effective, and powerful. It can deal quite some damage over time and or in keeping you alive to your best potential if alone. At 1/5 it can be used 2 times within 30 mins, 4 times within an hour if you're punctual of course.

2/5 = It doesn't change, only 2/30 and 4/60.
3/5 = 3/30, and 6/60
4/5 = 4/30, and 8/60
5/5 = 6/30, and 12/60 (Big chunk increase)

At max level it is providing you, 600 D per breath let's say with gear above used. 7200 Damage Per Hour, if you're punctual. Depending on Atma's etc, or how you choose to gear for it(W HP Gear then Spirit Link Then Breath) it would obviously be much higher.

Now it's not just about damage, these can be translated to Cure which can spike up to very large amounts. Much more than damage dealt.

Empathy is a tricky one which hasn't had a lot of testing done. I still have some questions for it as far as: If you Spirit Link once, and transfer Shell. The next time you Spirit Link do you get a different buff which overwrites the previous? Or does your Wyvern keep both buffs?

If it overwrites constantly, then even 1/5 would be pretty worthless if your Wyvern is getting non-beneficial buffs. This would obviously mean 5/5 would obviously be prime for making sure you obtain all the buffs. There is no doubt, that a Wyvern with Haste, Shell, Protect, Songs, Rolls, if those affect a Wyvern, then it's obvious that those buffs would out do anything Deep Breathing can provide.

Essentially, if your Wyvern is dead Deep Breathing is worthless as is Empathy.

It's really a question of: Deep Breathing 4/5 or Empathy 4/5 and one or the other 1/5.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-24 11:34:39  
Ragnarok.Amador said:
Well, I said it was effective, it doesn't boost damage though just consistency of damage. If Wyvern HP is at 100% it generally won't have much of an effect, if Wyvern HP is below 100% then it will, however damage will be lower regardless since damage is dependent on HP. +25 Wyvern Breath Accuracy is really nice, especially if you combine your breaths with certain pieces such as Wyrm Armet, Dragoon's Earring and Lancer's Torque. Ever since we were given the ability to make our Wyverns use an Elemental Breath or a Cure Breath it's gotten even better. However, breaking it down to certain things, that are eventually needed for harder prey, that can assist in benefiting your damage and others is Angon and it is the only ability outside of Spirit Surge Jump that allows others to benefit from our being in the group. Nothing dies in 1:30 unless you zerg it, and even then no one really cares to zerg much now a days. There hasn't been a monster released that has required a 30-45 second Angon which is why 5/5 always pulls ahead however you look at it. 5/5 Deep Breathing is effective, and powerful. It can deal quite some damage over time and or in keeping you alive to your best potential if alone. At 1/5 it can be used 2 times within 30 mins, 4 times within an hour if you're punctual of course. 2/5 = It doesn't change, only 2/30 and 4/60. 3/5 = 3/30, and 6/60 4/5 = 4/30, and 8/60 5/5 = 6/30, and 12/60 (Big chunk increase) At max level it is providing you, 600 D per breath let's say with gear above used. 7200 Damage Per Hour, if you're punctual. Depending on Atma's etc, or how you choose to gear for it(W HP Gear then Spirit Link Then Breath) it would obviously be much higher. Now it's not just about damage, these can be translated to Cure which can spike up to very large amounts. Much more than damage dealt. Empathy is a tricky one which hasn't had a lot of testing done. I still have some questions for it as far as: If you Spirit Link once, and transfer Shell. The next time you Spirit Link do you get a different buff which overwrites the previous? Or does your Wyvern keep both buffs? If it overwrites constantly, then even 1/5 would be pretty worthless if your Wyvern is getting non-beneficial buffs. This would obviously mean 5/5 would obviously be prime for making sure you obtain all the buffs. There is no doubt, that a Wyvern with Haste, Shell, Protect, Songs, Rolls, if those affect a Wyvern, then it's obvious that those buffs would out do anything Deep Breathing can provide. Essentially, if your Wyvern is dead Deep Breathing is worthless as is Empathy. It's really a question of: Deep Breathing 4/5 or Empathy 4/5 and one or the other 1/5.

I'm impressed at the well written and thought out post. The only thing that I think is important to point out is that if you're actually using smiting breath youre going to be penalized with the dreaded "job ability delay" which is going to nerf your dps. Couple that with another delay if you're using deep-breathing in an offensive situation.

I don't have any concrete numbers or anything, I just wanted to point out that you have to factor in those as well (to anyone reading the thread and weighing options).
 Ragnarok.Amador
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Amador
Posts: 409
By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-05-24 11:45:03  
Paladin Mobs, THF Mobs, why waste TP when you can waste a missed swing in exchange for a well planted Deep Breathing Full Wyvern HP+?

The Delay does suck. But the overall effect of what you're getting is great, even if you're /MAGE soloing. Sometimes the mob you're soloing is gonna lay down a haymaker, and you don't want to use your cure till you're at 700-900, you want to be at your highest possible HP. That can be provided by the new ability breaths.

You can also make it so you hit your macro for: Wyrm Armet, Lancer's Torque, and Dragoon's Earring right after you WS, so you can get the breath off, and switch back just in time for your swing.

Ability delay isn't an easy one, it's haunted Summoner, Beastmaster and Puppetmaster forever. The good thing about it as far as DRG goes, is as soon as you use it. It's done. It's the Wyvren's problem at that point to get it off. You're back to swinging or jumping. On that though, you could essentially choose to use it as you jump/spirit link to share that ability delay.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Sekundes
Posts: 4162
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-05-24 12:06:49  
I'd like to see the damage calculations/estimations as well as some parse data before I ruled out the possibility of Strafe being useful. I've never even considered it before because wyvern breaths usually suck. Now a bit more damage from these can be situationally nice but several factors come in to play. One would be how often my wyvern's breaths get borked from the mob dying... Secondly how often you are /sam compared to /mage and third what buffs you are getting and how much your wyvern is getting destroyed.

If a couple empathy merits is the difference from getting some form of attack/acc/haste boost to your wyvern then it will win hands down. Breaths aren't that strong but it's hard to say if that would have made the difference or not but we can say with certainly that more empathy will increase the chance for your wyvern to get beneficial buffs. Back when I finished meriting my drg I went 1 DB(just to have it for those very rare times that I needed it) 5 angon because the only situations where it won't be awesome is in situations like exp mobs where it doesn't matter anyway and 4 empathy because I wanted to keep the damn thing alive as often as I could and any buff I could get on it was lovely.

I generally just defer to Martel on things like this...
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-24 12:29:18  
Ragnarok.Amador said:
Paladin Mobs, THF Mobs, why waste TP when you can waste a missed swing in exchange for a well planted Deep Breathing Full Wyvern HP+? The Delay does suck. But the overall effect of what you're getting is great, even if you're /MAGE soloing. Sometimes the mob you're soloing is gonna lay down a haymaker, and you don't want to use your cure till you're at 700-900, you want to be at your highest possible HP. That can be provided by the new ability breaths. You can also make it so you hit your macro for: Wyrm Armet, Lancer's Torque, and Dragoon's Earring right after you WS, so you can get the breath off, and switch back just in time for your swing. Ability delay isn't an easy one, it's haunted Summoner, Beastmaster and Puppetmaster forever. The good thing about it as far as DRG goes, is as soon as you use it. It's done. It's the Wyvren's problem at that point to get it off. You're back to swinging or jumping. On that though, you could essentially choose to use it as you jump/spirit link to share that ability delay.

Situationally, I see your point.

Ragnarok.Sekundes said:
I'd like to see the damage calculations/estimations as well as some parse data before I ruled out the possibility of Strafe being useful. I've never even considered it before because wyvern breaths usually suck. Now a bit more damage from these can be situationally nice but several factors come in to play. One would be how often my wyvern's breaths get borked from the mob dying... Secondly how often you are /sam compared to /mage and third what buffs you are getting and how much your wyvern is getting destroyed. If a couple empathy merits is the difference from getting some form of attack/acc/haste boost to your wyvern then it will win hands down. Breaths aren't that strong but it's hard to say if that would have made the difference or not but we can say with certainly that more empathy will increase the chance for your wyvern to get beneficial buffs. Back when I finished meriting my drg I went 1 DB(just to have it for those very rare times that I needed it) 5 angon because the only situations where it won't be awesome is in situations like exp mobs where it doesn't matter anyway and 4 empathy because I wanted to keep the damn thing alive as often as I could and any buff I could get on it was lovely. I generally just defer to Martel on things like this...

It's been a few since I've had a good chat with Marty. You guys aren't on like you used to be (or we're keeping vastly different schedules now).
Tell everyone i said hi :D
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Sekundes
Posts: 4162
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-05-24 12:36:38  
We've been slightly MIA for the last week or so but other than that we're on fairly often. Probably a times thing.
 Ragnarok.Amador
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Amador
Posts: 409
By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-05-24 13:52:54  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said:
I'd like to see the damage calculations/estimations as well as some parse data before I ruled out the possibility of Strafe being useful. I've never even considered it before because wyvern breaths usually suck. Now a bit more damage from these can be situationally nice but several factors come in to play. One would be how often my wyvern's breaths get borked from the mob dying... Secondly how often you are /sam compared to /mage and third what buffs you are getting and how much your wyvern is getting destroyed.

Well, it all depends on how you apply your DRG. If you wish to apply it to regular monsters, then it changed drastically from fighting an NM etc.

The use of ability breaths, can be applied to both /SAM and /Mage, in the end it doesn't matter and ends up being irrelevant, it's just a bonus to being able to use them.

The main buffs that affect a Wyvern that actually matter are: Haste, Cure-skin, Protect and Shell. Anything else, is questionable if it has an effect that can be parsed or not. The chance of you being able to get these 4 in one spirit link is also very dependent on what buffs you do have, as in most cases we'll have third eye and seigan up, both of which can transfer to the Wyvern. That kills 2 buffs that could have been beneficial already.

But all in all, you have decent odds for it. Yes a Hasted Wyvern with some DD buffs, could beat out an unbuffed Wyvern. A Wyvern with shell could survive a bit longer than one without, etc.

A parse for this would be rather weird, you'd be testing either: 5/5 Empathy, 4/5 Empathy or 5/5 Strafe 4/5 Strafe 4/5 Deep Breathing 5/5 Deep Breathing, which all in all makes no sense and are pretty far apart from even being related.

You'd be comparing Damage Vs Damage, Breath vs Breath, Damage Taken Spell and Physical, Attack Rounds and Times Killed.

It's easy to see that Shell V is beneficial, Haste is, and Protect.
However, if Spirit Link allows buffs to accumulate, instead of overwrite, then would it even be worth it to have more than 2 points into Empathy?

Wyvern Breaths are only powerful when you equip items such as: Wyrm Armet, Dragoon's Earring and Lancer's Torque. You notice a fairly nice damage increase, accuracy increase and that in fact can be parsed to show an increase overall. People talk about how it makes you lose an attack round, or slows you down. If you time it correctly, you can swap into your TP gear before your hit goes off.
 Ragnarok.Ashman
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Ashman
Posts: 4247
By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-05-24 14:05:49  
Compatible Empathy Buffs

I thought these were notable as well, especially if you're in an event where temp items spawn often (abyssea, salvage etc). Stalwarts, champions, monarchs etc.

edit* spoilered to save room
 Ragnarok.Amador
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Amador
Posts: 409
By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-05-28 03:33:45  
So, I was doing some Grounds of Valor a little earlier in the day today.

Spirit Linking fairly often, and I only really ever saw one message read:

"Wyvern's Name" Protect Effect wears off.

So, would this mean 1 Empathy = 1 Buff only at any given point and time untill it's gone/dispelled?

Now I understand that a buff can be applied multiple times due to Empathy's random selection of buffs behavior. But, that's still pretty crappy within 4 hours <_<;

Didn't get any: Haste or Shell messages wearing off either. I typically wait untill my buffs are gone before recharging them at book.