SCH, Good Sub Or Not? Lets Discuss (no Drama Please, This Is, For Once, A Serious Thread)

BRD/SCH is actually nice, but like you, I spend a lot of time in ugly AoE's, so I use it sparingly XD You get access to a lot of the -na's that /WHM gives also. Curaga and Erase, I'll admit.. I miss them, Stoneskin too! XD

BLM/SCH works awesome in Dynamis, just need to learn to live without Blink and Stoneskin. It's a killer combination teamed with a SCH/RDM. 2x Sleepga II + AoE Stoneskin ftw!

I've also used BLM/SCH on statues in Sky, they're about as messy as Dynamis in general, or were for me >.> I don't think I ever actually burned through a full bar of MP before dying XD I definitely miss Gravity on those though =P

I do /sch all the time when i can. Now as far as blm/sch goes better not be getting hit. But i do it for omega all the time i can actually do a full wheel of AM2s with no 2hr or meds. rdm/sch is rediculous even before composure. If i dont absolutely need barspellra erase ES sleepga utsesmi or some other random spell ability from certain job its /sch. If i have to i can cure much more efficiently and even cure status with addendum white i can even afford to pro4 entire pt in nyzul isle. I can nuke as good as most blms... in fact on tinnin my thunder3 on MB often outdid the blms thunder4. And then theres aspir/drain. Drain the most efficient dmg/mp spell normally rendered useless by rdms crap dark skill and aspir= free mps. Not to mention lowered recast/cast timers with arts and possibly stratgems. And have you ever tried composure regen 2... its like 720 hp for 33 mp and get RR now too. I even blu/sch sometimes especially campaign battle. Since my blu always running out of mp having another faster aspir + drain + cure without using up random spells slot is nice. Also blm/sch awesome sauce for campaign the sublimations wakes you up if you get slept and RR for when you die and the efficiency lets me aga3 a good 4-5 times before fanatics drink wears off. Do taht twice and just rest alot and bam 2k xp. And then theres always the kite battles where being able to cast really really fast is nice. Also being able to cast sleep and land it on blu is just some funny *** ***not to mention blu cure spells based on blu and healing magic skills so you can hit some really nice numbers.

It's an awesome sub.

Sorry but you can't. You're nowhere near a decent blm damage wise.

I love how pertinent is the comparison between a MB'ed Thunder III and a Thunder IV without MB also. why not comparing a novio RDM using Thunder III with ES on a pudding on lightningday, with a BLM using double INT+3 ring, no moldy/novio, unmerited, NQ staff, and Thunder IV on an UFO. Now I don't say that you're unable to nuke at all. Still far away from a (decent) blm.

I love how you talk about things you cant possible know and assume I more or less cheat/lie when i say that. But ya know if you were reading more then those 2 lines and based on your statement it seems pretty obvious you didnt I said my thunder III against a blms thunder IV MB on same mob same time. Not to mention its HNM like which is the real test since rdm nukes usually suffer horrible resist against endgame stuff. Now yes these werent the best blms in the world but really they are on par with what i usually see. Unfortunately i only took screenshots of when i went as blm on there. Oh and my rdm nuke set aint that great i still use errant body and magnetic earring for god sake... lol and balhrans ring. But I still occasionally get to come rdm/sch on endgame stuff I'll take some screenshots for ya unless you wanna make up more HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE excuses right now.

I have RDM and BLM at 75, so I can say the following:

How in the hell can you keep up with BLMs HNMwise with your 220 elemental skill? Even with /SCH that skill goes up to what, 240? 250? Nothing compared to a 269 Elemental skill of a BLM. Even if you merit your elemental magic 8/8, so can a BLM.

RDMs are not made for nuking, they are made for healing/enfeebling/enhancing. Even if you get to nuke at ***, it will forever be lolnukes.

Ever since my BLM hit 75, I pretty much never touched RDM nukes again. I'm surprised that people still let RDMs nuke at all. Now that SCH is here, RDMs don't nuke.....ever....

Well now you're just being mean.

I didn't read what post you were responding to, and it's definitely true a RDM will never outnuke BLM, except for like within a minute timespan with Chainspell, but that doesn't make their nukes completely useless.

Try soloing any sort of higher level NM without nukes on RDM. Try soloing Dynamis statues without nukes. You can't. The fight would go on for too long.

What's a RDM supposed to do when you have 15 seconds left in Salvage and the mega boss is at 5% HP? Just stand there and cast Dia?

The fact of the matter is, RDM can get almost all of the same Nuking gear as BLM, plus a lot more, and can ultimately end up doing more damage with a T3 nuke than some BLMs would. It's true that T3 is the best that RDM can get, and BLM's extra nukes are what keep them ahead of the curve, but RDM's MP will outlast BLM in the long AND short runs, only casting the much more MP-efficient T3 nukes.

Edit:Ontopic, RDM/SMN would be better than RDM/SCH for meritting, especially on Greater Colibri, and BLM/SCH has no way to defend themselves so not recommended when soloing anything too big.

RDM/SCH just wastes one of the main reasons you would actually sub SCH, and that's Sublimation. Since Refresh and Sublimation don't stack, you're just getting a slightly better skill and barely worthwhile MP-cost reduction.

BLM/SCH definitely has its uses, but in this situation, at least in my mind, the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

Ok, I'm sorry if I came out a little mean there.

There are "some" situations where a RDM can nuke, but usually, they are there for other reasons. Having a RDM there to nuke is like having a SMN for main heal. It just doesn't work.

If a RDM goes to an event expecting to be main nuker, or at least nuker in general, they will be very disappointed in it. Level SCH or BLM if you want to nuke ***.

Sure RDM can't normally outnuke a BLM... but I've met a lot of tarded BLM out there, and a skilled RDM is better than a tarded BLM anyday!

blm/sch really only has its uses when either duoing with a rdm or another blm/rdm or when killing ***like omega and sky gods. anything worthwhile soloing on blm, im /rdm 90% of the time i can think of over 100 different times when stoneskin and blink have saved my life. if mp is a big problem for you, buy a better hmp set <_<

as Enternius pointed out rdms do have many times when nuking can be win or lose, ever fight Cronos when your set up is nin brd rdm war whm >_>? as for /sch again as said above, the whole point of rdm is the ability to swap between decent light and dark magic when need be. when having to cure a party, keep enfeebles and dot on while monitoring slept mobs, your gonna end up using more mp than you save and when that mob hits people with bio2 or elegy or slow (the ones that dont get erased by haste <_<) or this and that, you're gonna look like one useless *** >_>.

Do your reasearch Korpg rdm/sch gets 256 elemental skill nekkid no merits and blm 276. Read Kanican and the reasons why sch is fastly becoming a much better magic dmg user then blm. Turns out you dont need rediculous elemental skill to land nukes on HNMs. Just merits and af hat alone put me at 282.

My normal nuking gear on rdm includes another +12macc~12 skill. And mostly since i dont have acess to the all the MAB gear i wear a good +50 int on my nukes which also helps my accuracy. So my accuracy over all gets somewhere between the super int and the 320/120 build effectively. And seeing as lower tier spells are more affected by int.

If i really wanted to /had the gear i could get +50 elemental skill on rdm not counting body or weapon which with my merits is more then enough for anything worth nuking.

Yes not being able to stack sublimation and refresh sucks... get over it doesnt make this not good. /sch adds more versatility. Instead of being able to do everything kinda crappily you can do everything actually good. The efficiency is better then you think. You also get conserve mp trait for 1. And the reduce mp cost strats. And Chainspell drain with dark arts up is well rediculous. Besides look at the benefits or /whm or /blm and you generally got them already on /sch. Yes not having erase occasionally hurts but not usually enough that i didnt usually go /blm anyways. I dont think ive gotten to the HNM on nyzul yet with less the 600 mp and convert still up.

Dasva go back and read that Kaeko post again. It took basically perfect gear (Aureole being a notable part of his gear) for him to get 326/127 as a Taru, and that also requires food and Stormsurge'd Hailstorm to be on at all times. Swap for a Phantom Tathlum, you're 318/129. Other races are basically SOL, especially without the very best gear. As a Hume, I could get maybe 326/120 as a perfect SCH. With that kind of quality gear I could probably hit 340/130+ on BLM. Or I could just stack MAB gear if I'm ok on resists. SCH might outdamage me over time on standard NM, but only if they're very well geared and Taru. I could do better than 99% of SCH with AH gear on BLM, and for TOAU HNM... lolschnuke. Need too much INT and Skill on those for SCH to be worthwhile.

Kaeko's point was SCH is viable as a BLM alternative for pure nuking, if they're basically perfectly geared. You'll still keep BLM around for stun and sleepga, etc. His second point was that any further gear additions would likely only strengthen SCH (barring sidegrades), meaning that BLM is in need of buffs to keep its position as the go-to nuking job. We're not to that point yet, though I'd appreciate some love from SE.

Whm/Sch hands down is a great job.

Blu/sch and rdm/sch i have no experience with.

Now let's get to Blm/Sch, this job gets so my attention because of people's opinions over it. Some people simply do not like the risk of dying, period. Doesn't matter what job they play. And some people accept the fact that their job will make them to have to XP a lot. (i.e., Thf, Blm, Pld, etc., ...)

blm/rdm, great for enfeebs, and gravity... to be honest if i actually /need/ gravity there's usually a RDM around to do it- weather or not they use it that's another topic. i prefer /whm for erase, RR, and -na to help out that 1 guy that's being ignored.

typically i go /rdm when i solo puddings- but if i don't have the time to sink into it i'll go /sch... yes blm/sch solo on puddings, shocker! the inreased skill lv's work just fine here- bind is rarely resisted, and even my sleeps land. just be careful to not use a strategem too close becuase they aggro job abilities.

limbus, sky, sea, nyzul, assault, all /sch. running around with refresh gear on to stack with sublimation really keeps you prepared. add that together with 1/2MP cost strategem and a few pieces with Conserve MP?

Dynamis? Once. there is too much going on, and in order to not be hit by AoE u gotta stand away from the group and often times miss ballad. plus if you're a good BLM ur spamming sleepga to overwite lullaby, and helping out ur poor rdm's. its not a giant amount of enmity but its enough that if someone messes up /assist, or a mage or 2 is AFK u'll get pummeled in a few hits w/out any buffs.

Overall? I love the job, but I do wish they had something more than just helix's and storms to set them apart =)

Here's some notable places i found to like /sch~

ZNM - blm/sch and even rdm/sch were able to maintain a nuking status for a long(er) time. Most were vs tower kited NM's, like Dea or Iriz-Ima..even vs Lividroot (fairly scary w/o buffs when bad breath hit, but other members got hate before i even got hit).

Limbus - blm/sch vs omega i can def. agree with from prior poster...i will use it next time since drk zerg takes him down hella fast...ultima i'd still take /rdm or /whm since Ultima likes to Holy 2 people who don't put buffs on. Could also do this for Kaiser Behemoth zone in limbus w/o much prob

Dyn - recently did xarc blm/sch ...killing eyes sucked due to taking 200-500dmg constantly (but nothing i can't sit around and drain from melee mobs)...i do agree for dream realm /whm or /rdm would be preferable

Dyn - rdm/sch - did this for a city run while in the misfit party~ it was extremely hard to run out of mp constantly nuking tier3s on melee assist mobs...even chose "fast cast" strat over -mp% - resists in the span of the whole city zone were negligible

blu/sch - campaign its fun, killing lesser colibris for shits and giggles, ls mate went /sch to some limbus runs for sublimation...light arts will also slightly raise hp cured from magic fruit least when i was messing around on lessers it boosted from 390s > 430s (as taru needing to cure 400s puts me in the orange~ >.>)

whm/sch - not much endgame with this yet, but have done a bunch of lvl sync, found -mp cost strat to be very beneficial with curaga line of spells
for efficiency along with reraise (makes less of a burden mid-xp to recast)

drk/sch - campaign - drain2/dread spikes/absorb-tp is pretty kewl to have ready at a faster rate (alacrity)...now with the added reraise makes it more viable...also if you do happen to die, reduced mp cost for rr will let you recast it while weakened (least that's what i've found for myself)
In the event you accidentally aggro stuff you can fast cast dread spikes and run ur *** around or begin fighting it :P

Once drainI/II is down you can swap to light arts and access curative line of spells for yourself or teammate. Pro2/shell can add in there, but eh

-Untested- rdm/sch for Brothers ENM the boost to elemental could assist in chain-nuke (used to small group Brothers for a while)
can't think of other stuff atm, but wherever a rdm might want to reduce resist rates could use there~ often the necessity of -na/erase makes rdm/sch undesirable (i personally love curaga)

i happen to like subbing SCH for rdm sometimes but if you're use to refreshing yourself and other ppl and can take a bit to adjust to the new sub job.

most ppl prefer subbing blm or whm for rdm but its nice to have another
option as a sub.

fully endorse this message.

If I was paying attention. after almost everypost there would of been a "tl;dr"

ok, I read that one.
-1

I must have missed Dasva's responce to me.

But yeah, Jlaine got the point across.

<Edit> I blame the mithra porn on the missed post.

They were crappy BLM period. Know what ? Between 2 BLM the gap can be huge already. My thunder IV hits nuke as hard as some blm Burst II (in the very same nuking condition (weather/mob/day/unresisted)). So no your RDM cannot nuke ***, unless you compare it with a BLM using subpar equip (or failing at macro'ing) like this...



(only took that screenshot because it was funny to do exactly the same damage with T4/AMII)

The first BLM nuking got 4/5 morri (all but feets) and HQ staff. Enough money to buy S.ring and stuff like that, but don't even know how to force yellow... Mob was an Eo'Aern WHM if I recall. Maybe shell was on and not dispelled I forgot, been a long time since this.

Am I gonna make a thread claiming that Thunder IV = Burst II because of this ? No. So again your RDM nuke < BLM nuke.

I dont have +50 elemental gear im only saying its possible. I generally only wear at most +10-20 and about 12macc. I think your missing the whole point of this topic... SUB /sch. i mean sure if i nuke with light arts yeah ill cap at 230 but with dark arts my skill will be same as sch main which is 256. gonna make a screenshot of my nuke gear for rdm since doing this from memory is getting annoying



Thats no food or buffs. So 292 elemental wearing 12macc puts me at 304 my int is oh nos 117. This is moderate gear and look how close i am to getting to the ideal number to floor resist. Swap enlighted chain with elemental torque eat a cream puff and id be at 311/121. Oh my Ill still get occasionally resisted. Half the blms i run into get resisted all the time. And when i can i stick to ice spells and Aquillos staff will give me another 10 skill and 5 int. Will MY rdm ever beat MY blm hell no. Will it beat alot of the blms i run into yes. And yes there are alot of crappy blms out there I tend to do 50-100% more dmg per spell then a good 80% of the blms in my manaburn dynamis shell its really kind of sad seeing as im not that pimped. No novio no morrigan NQ weskit hell i cant keep ugg pendant active cause of my damn mp and silly ghorn brd in my all the time.

As far as playing either thats about all im allowed to go as most the time. Well except for nyzul they usually let me come blu if they can find a competent rdm which means someone we know since 9/10 shout ones cant even refresh anyone but themselves for some reason.

Also to the whole nyzul HNM point did you like even read that part. I was using that as an example of my efficiency how much mp i still always have left. Most the rdms we bring in there have to convert a couple of times and are always low on mp. Its the point where almost all shouts demand 2 healers and alot of people dont think rdm can be the only healer in there.

Okay, so educate me since the only mage I have is SCH main. /SCH doesn't get you access to -nas and erase? Or you just can't use Addendum: White or something?

With addendum white you get acess to to nas and RR no erase though silly lvl 39 sch /cry.
Funny story though not all people who go as blm have merits... omg no really. I probably do work with inferior blms. But frankly they are the average of what I see... now you should see the bad ones I know... its bad and I'm not just talking about getting resisted. Most players out there I find don't really try that much. Hell my blm has more enfeebling magic then all but 1 other rdm in my sky shell... very very sad. I'm sure if I was in super elite shells this wouldn't happen but yeah I generally play with casual players cause hey I am one and chafe at the whole being on call all the time some lss have.

Damn, SE must've changed it up. I remember when I leveled SCH I was almost positive I got erase at 32, same as when I got dispel/

Not trying to do a major derail here, just there's some SCH's in here so good place to ask:

As an Elvaan SCH, eating Melon Pies, do you think subbing NIN and dual wielding INT clubs will return better DoT overall than subbing /BLM if nuking at lower levels? Or would the larger MP pool through /BLM be better?

Again, sorry for derail...