Critical Hit Rate+ Vs. Double Attack

I'm a little confused whether you're joking or not?
Nothing beats capped haste. The simple fact that person B will weaponskill more than person A makes it valid.

Haste > Acc > Crit rate > DA > Crit dmg if you need some sort of priority. WAR is spoiled on AF3+2 with both haste and DA to where you can just focus crit hit+ elsewhere.

Does somehow having a low delay automatically make the effects of haste less potent? If I get boosted from 0% to 26% haste, do I not roughly gain the same increase in damage/ws frequency when using dagger as opposed to great axe, of course assuming that the weapons being used have the same DPS?

tl;dr haste is always valuable no matter the weapon type, unless you're at the 80% weapon delay cap you should always prioritize haste and accuracy if not capped. Crit damage is extremely exaggerated inside abyssea, and outside abyssea the damage gain when increasing crit hit rate takes a drastic turn.

tl;dr the tl;dr use haste begos is gewd

If you want an answer about a theoretical situation, you would need to be able to test a situation, and since you're throwing around hypotheticals that cannot occur, we have no way of knowing without creating a made up parse, while even the parses we can create are very skewed. Even if you managed to create an even remotely plausible set of data that didn't happen, how would you go about applying it? Stop tping in haste because a situation that cannot happen told me to?

Accuracy is the most important stat, hands down. People tend to forget that these days because we have such high natural accuracy ratings. On a blank slate, Acc > Haste > DA = Crit Rate > Crit Dmg > Attk > STR/DEX for TP. Considering modern statistics and the levels of monsters however, acc is at the soft cap quite frequently, so Haste is the most important factor.

On the actual topic. DA has decreasing returns, as has been stated numerous times. With each % of DA, it is less potent than the previous %'s of DA. DA increases TP gain, increases the amount of swings, and can proc on WSs. Critical Hits, like DA, has decreasing returns in a similar ratio. Critical hits increase damage by about two fold, but don't earn more TP, and crits can also proc on WSs. With this in mind, critical hits are weaker than DA in one way, TP gain, but at what point does the amount of DA and its depreciative value get usurped by critical hit rate?

Accuracy also has diminishing returns. Haste has always been the more important stat. And crits don't proc on every WS, and your TP set and WS set should be different to begin with.

Yes, but you keep falling back saying:



You can't use an example and exclude everything from it. Only in abyssea are you going to reach 50%+ crit hit rate. This being said, Haste gets the same treatment.

Specifically talking about WAR in this case, Atmas are strictly RR, Apoc, Sanguine no other combination of atmas will win. This being said, haste will once again/as always win. Especially since Ukko's/RR has an innate crit rate. Somewhere from 10-15% at 100Tp? Don't recall if anyone did the math on it.

The reason we are capable of saying haste is as good as it is, is because it's an invariable effect, we can tell you you will attack this much faster, and it makes such a monumental effect, because, although this goes against my and many others' schools of thought, haste is not required to "proc" and we know it will activate every time we swing.

crits gotta proc though

Crits take time to proc, you heard it here first folks

just like haste and double attack, right?

Claymore Grip, especially if your WS is Crit Based.

This will improve your average, and in Abyssea can push you towards more consistent numbers.

For jobs like DRG it'll also further push the consistency of Soul and Spirit Jump Crit with Wyvern up.

If your main WS is not Crit Based, then you should focus on Pole Grip.

Assuming of course all other factors are in perfect conditions... Which they aren't so w/e.

For every point of accuracy you lack, each stat you have decays by a similar amount. At 95% accuracy, haste is only 95% beneficial. If you're not at the soft cap for accuracy, or damn close, you're doing it wrong. Attacks you miss do absolutely nothing for you, or anyone else.

Also, haste has not always been the most important stat. When people used to stack STR on their melee gear, accuracy was one of the most underrated stats in the game, haste was never even considered. Sushi was a godsend when it was released for a reason. Without accuracy, haste just makes you miss faster.

Sort of but not really true. The value of haste, STR, etc with respect to increasing your DPS is still exactly the same, the average period over which these hits occur is just extended. Acc is better by comparison but other stats aren't actually any worse off.

Ah, gotcha.

I don't think you can really make such a list because of the way different stats are of varying importance in various situations. At best you might be able to make a list of the top two, and that's pretty much always going to prioritize haste and then acc.

Apples and oranges. This was during a time BEFORE all the melee updates, walahra turban, or even possibly getting close to hitting the 25.6% haste cap. Still doesn't make the point invalid. Haste was always important. I personally can't remember a time where I needed acc food, even exping at moon before nin burns in sky.

It may be apples and oranges, but the statement made was sweeping. Haste had a similar value to what it has today, but the value of accuracy was much higher at the time. That's the point. Accuracy still has a high value, but it comes in great quantities now, easily, making haste a viable option, especially with its modern availability.

How I would think of it:

Take 100 swings and count is as your base, each doing 1 dmg.

0% haste, 95% acc: 95/100 attacks would land: 95dmg
80% haste, 20% acc: 100/500 attacks would land: 100dmg
80% haste, 95% acc: 475/500 attack would land: 475dmg

100% DA, 20% acc, 0% haste: 40/200 attacks would land: 40dmg
100% DA, 95% acc, 0% haste: 190/200 attacks would land: 190dmg
100% DA, 20% acc, 80% haste: 200/1000 attacks would land: 200dmg

Now, crit rate(somewhat simplified), ideal hypothetical situation in terms of damage I believe would be at .1(mob having 10 times more defense than your attack) Pdif which would make a crit raise it to a 1.1 muliplier. Thus attacks would do 11dmg. At a more slightly more realistic Pdif of .5 (mob has twice your attack in defense), crit would raise a 1dmg attack to 3dmg.

.5 situation:
100% crit, 20% acc, 0% haste: 20/100 attacks would land: 60dmg
100% crit, 95% acc, 0% haste: 95/100 attacks would land: 285dmg
100% crit, 20% acc, 80% haste: 100/500 attacks would land: 300dmg

Conclusion: haste and acc are basically your best stats to aim for cappping on any DD job.

This doesn't count WS frequency, which benefits all stats but crit hits in this post(but clearly the 475landed hits haste/acc situation would win). I may make a spread sheet to find where exactly the cut off is for DA/crit if there is one to entertain myself once I wake up more.

Edit:Fail at quotes. Also, haste from gear caps at 25%, not 25.6. You just dont always get the full listed ammount on gear, so normally require 26% listed.

Increasing your average damage is the most important thing and in doing so means you compare what each stat gains are giving over one and the other.

Accuracy just happens to be a stat that generally offers a bigger impact in overall damage vs other stats. However what does more 2%(4acc) or 5%DA? that answer will vary its not so easy to say acc or DA because of its size but the over all picture.

Also accuracy and haste go hand in hand. While its true haste is making you miss faster, however at the same time, haste is making you pump out more swings in a smaller amount of time, thus increasing your total swings thus increasing your net amount of swings landed which can over come the total swings you landed more accurately with less haste.

5% haste vs 10accuracy(5% hit rate) I can tell you, most times 5% haste is going to beat out 10acc unless you start out at close to the base %s.

Haste has always been important. If anything accuracy has always been the misused stat.

Eat sushi, tp in str. Go full acc til capped hit rate and then start stacking on haste,att etc. Seen/read all of this throughout the early years, the later being said even after the dark ages were up...


I think monk with impetus up is probably one of the rarer examples where achieving a higher accuracy over haste might be more beneficial, again youd have to compare what you are losing and gaining, since each successful hit = attack/1%crit/1%critdmg and climbs per hit and each miss resets it.

No DD stat is better than another DD stat in every single situation. What matters is which combination of those stats gives the mathematically best possible result in a given situation. You can't just worry about "capping" one stat at a time because one is better than the others. You need to pay attention to what combinations are available on your gear and maximize the potential of all stats combined.

It's silly to argue about Haste and Acc. WAR can cap Haste a billion different ways and Acc is an issue pretty much nowhere. Voidwatch when using a 1H proccing weapon? Sure, but eat some damned sushi. It isn't like your damage on WAR matters.

Crit rate vs. DA is going to vary based on a lot of different factors:
* Attack - Affects cRatio and the "value" of a critical hit
* Crit Attack Bonus - Affects the "value" of a critical hit
* Current Crit rate - Affects the marginal gain from additional Crit rate.
* Current DA rate - Affects the marginal gain from additional DA
* X-hit build - X affects the value of DA for TP gain slightly, if you're considering a TP comparison.

Anyway, the only real borderline case I can think of is Bellicus Cuisses with 3% Crit rate vs. AF3+2 for Ukko's. For everything else, there's a pretty clear winner regardless of the above factors.

You can get Wivre gorget with accuracy +5, subtle blow +5 crit hit rate + 2 from amber chest in Tahrogi canyon. From eyeballing I prefer this to other options like ravagers gorget, sea torques, Agasaya's Collar especially on most mobs where you dont need accuracy. Also it can be used by all jobs so saves a lot of inventory space when u have multiple DD jobs. Anyone compared this gorget with other options?

You would have slightly lower tp gain than ravagers (2% less double attack) but in abyssea with right atma critical hits can do substantially more than single hits. Is there a cap to double attack, critical hit rates and critical damage?

There's not a cap to double attack (at least not one that we can hit). Crit rate caps at 100%. Rancor Collar is the best crit rate neck option.

Thanks for info however I dont like rancor collar for 3 reasons

1. I dont want to blow 2 million on one yet when next level update is close (free wivre gorget is cool for me)
2. The 10% damage taken does not compensate for the 5% gain in crit hit rate. A dead warrior cant do any damage.
3. I believe SE will be totally twisted and make us fight lots of tonberrys for level 90 genkai now that people have hate built up.

This is a terrible blanket statement. There are plenty of mobs that are no threat whatsoever even with DT+10%, know what can kill you and what can't and use Rancor Collar as appropriate.

This. This is about the closest thing to actually answering my question. How do we mathematically weigh DA vs. Crit?