Visibility Of Stats

One of my biggest gripes in FFXI has always been the fact that only a handful of useful PC stats are actually listed. While there is food, gear, and buffs that obviously affect statistics like accuracy, ranged accuracy/attack, magic accuracy/attack, etc., there's never been a real way to see exactly how much various things help/hurt you. When Ballista came out, it became one of the only ways to actually test many of the spells and equipment that had been available to players for years (and frankly, is just about it's only use these days)

I don't mind equipment that has hidden or latent effects, there's some value to having some "surprise" bonuses, it can be fun for the player base to be able to "discover" things like that. But vital stats like magic accuracy and ranged statistics need to be visible to the player, so we can more effectively make our characters better.

To make another point, the consequence of not having things like this is people using third party programs to discover the acc/racc etc. Parser anyone? I'm just saying that if the information isn't provided people will find a way to obtain that information themselves through who know what means.

I support this as well. Seems like a very basic, but needed feature.

While I (or anyone for that matter, should) agree, it's been vital for them to update the HUD and whatnot (and still haven't over the course of six-seven years or whatever)... pretty sure you won't be seeing it changed now while they're working on an entirely new game which is designed to replace this one in the first place.

Kind of a shame they never fixed it though, definately.

If you'll notice, this forum is about suggestions for FFXIV :p

Trust me, I've long given up on them adding that information to FFXI, heh

...oh.

Well if THAT'S the case, yeah, better hope they get it right this time, seven years down the road <_>

Yep, another beneficial and useful feature. In many other games (like PWI :P) you get to see exactly what your accuracy, evasion, etc. etc. are.

And for things like spells / abilities... You can see the exact base damage they'll do or the exact dmg they do per tick for DoT spells.

Both would be welcome additions to the FFXI cloak and dagger style of displaying things.

/sigh

I agree, stats should be displayed more readily. I know it'd really help make the game more user-friendly, though i did find the approach ffxi had fun. Not knowing your magic accuracy meant you had to test to see what was better, a piece with tons of INT, or a piece with some M Acc/atk. I always kinda liked that.

Immersed you further into the game... You had to actually find out for yourself, the way they most likely intended.

Yep, PWI reference just for you and Karusan.

*Shrugs.* I could have swore we were playing an MMORPG... I didn't know this was a detective game too. =D

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Accuracy

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hit_Rate

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Evasion

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/STR_-_VIT_Difference_Function

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ranged_Attack

...just to get you started.

I imagine the programmers might have expected players to take the five minutes to do the 9th-grade algebra themselves, but whatever. Apparently people would rather rely on parsers which irrelevantly compare one player's job/gear/merits/buffs to another player's job/gear/merits/buffs.

Figuring out damage formulas wasn't something we were magically able to do once (rofl)ballista came around. The /check system is, and always was, the best way to determine these variables. That's why common merit mobs have their Total EVA, DEF, VIT etc listed on their respective wiki pages and why players painstakingly took the time to conclusively determine these values.

All the desired information is out there for those willing to take the time to learn.

Yes, but should you have to go check a 'guide' to see these stats? This is what we're asking. Should you have to break out your calculator while playing to determine which piece of gear/food/song/etc. will give you the maximum damage potential?

I'd say no to all of the above. I believe the information should be readily available to you within the game IF you choose to see it.

Hiding stats is a game-balancing technique, although not a very good one. If players don't know what's going to give the maximum damage potential, or have to do a considerable amount of work to find out, than it is less likely that the game will wind up with a bunch of exact clones running around. I hear complaints all the time about this in MMOs such as WoW.

So what it comes down to is that I'd rather have the stats hidden than no game-balancing at all. In a perfect world, SE would do the parsing themselves and use a better form of game-balancing (like making stats balanced - building attack might be just as effective as building haste, for example).

so like to try and keep the game from being all rangers or Sam's?

You'll always have those that want to put out the biggest numbers and toil tirelessly to figure out how to do that.

On the opposite side, you'll have people that play what job/class/race they want and then gear themselves based on their own knowledge/views instead of what will give them the most 1337 dmg output.

The visibility of stats won't stop the former group.

Or to keep every SAM ever from using the exact same weapon. Yes. Hiding stats doesn't remedy excessively unbalanced gear/jobs. Also, after 7 years, hiding stats isn't going to be very effective because of this phenomenon:

I dunno, I think FFXI hides a lot more than it should, but at the same time though, I feel that having so many unknowns is one of FFXI's successes. Look at all the work that went into finding out the information in the above links, and even more than that, look at Kaeko's enmity testing.

I dunno now, I thought at first that we should definitely be able to see all this, but now I'm just not so sure. It's nice to have mysteries. We have enough of a cookie cutter issue as it is now, having all stats displayed would only make that issue worse I guess.

Like I said, there's benefit to having "mysteries" like you talk about. Things like hidden effects, latents, etc lend itself to that. And I'm fully aware of sites all over the place and the check system to help calculate statistics, I'm a regular contributor to them, thanks. What I'm saying is, it shouldn't be necessary.

My main gripe, as a career RDM, is magic accuracy. But anyone who uses ranged regularly feels the same pain. My point is that it shouldn't TAKE 7 years (or even 1) to determine how to calculate basic stats. I'm not saying formulas need to be spelled out to us, but for pete's sake, at least give us an actual number to go on. I don't want it displayed on a constant HUD or anything, just put it in a common stats menu. It's not too much to ask, we've just grown so accustomed to not having it that we think it's normal to have to jump through hoops to get very basic information.

On the enmity point, I agree. I've been of the opinion that enmity, while obviously a formula at its base, is basically a "common sense" judgment on the part of tanks and DD's. How far can you push the envelope before you get smacked in the mouth? It's part of the fun.

An argument like that could be made for any stat if you stretch it far enough, sure. But just for the sake of user-friendliness, I wish SE would be a lot less cagey about game mechanics. I'm not saying turn FFXIV into WoW, god forbid, I left WoW for a reason and the cookie-cutter mold was definitely part of it.

There's a happy medium that needs to be found between being obnoxiously control-happy and hiding everything, and handing out every formula for everyone to dissect into "this is the end-all be-all of PC stats, get 1200 DPS or GTFO". FFXI is currently at the former end of the spectrum, and WoW is at the latter. I'm just looking for a middle ground, if such a thing is possible.

/novel

I totally understand every point your making, but I'm still of two minds about it, and the more we discuss it, the more I'm inclined to think that these stats should remain hidden.

As far as taking 7 years to work things out, I don't think some things were EVER meant to be worked out completely. If we work out too soon exactly what the best way is to do ANYTHING (acc, racc, enmity, macc, you name it) then the cookie cutter comes out right from the start.

If you think of it more as a fantasy adventure game (which I think is kinda the point) rather than a stat-based accountants game, you're never going to walk up to a mob with a calculator and work out exactly how to maximise your damage. You'll walk up to a mob, and say, damn, he looks tough I'm gonna use the BIG axe on this one. Then you start fighting and realise you can't hit him for ***because he's too evasive so you decide to drop the big axe and go with the polearm because it's a faster weapon and you can hit him more reliably.

In time, all the formulas will be found out, but I think it will be more engaging to find out through a more realistic trial and error type scenario than doing a bunch of gear swaps and spamming ctrl c, or whipping out the calculator. Showing things such as acc and macc in a stat box means you instantly know the hidden effects of everything item you equip, as well as knowing instantly what effect INT/MND/skill/macc etc. will have.

So yeah, I was initially all for more stats being visible, but I've done a complete backflip and am totally against it lol. I think one of the reasons FFXI has lasted so long is BECAUSE there were still mysteries to discover.

Why is it people strive to find out these numbers? They throw fun completely out the window just so they can be the best. It's like those people that play Smash Bros but turn off all the items and only play Final Destination. Have fun with the game you don't need to be an accountant.

you guys give too much credit to SE

they were lazy and refused 2 put the effort into making this and you think they did it out of "mystery" yeah right xD

Also tbh FF14 will be way less hardcore than 11 since we all know that the non~hardcore gamer market is that much bigger then us and the devs want some of that cash :O

double edged sword Hardcore gamer or casual

lately Casual player been winning so expect 14 to be "easy" ~

It's really not at all hard to add to all these extra stats, we know that SE have gone to a lot of detail to make these stats exist as a very definite number (just look at the 7 years of research that has gone into finding them out). ***, FF1 had most of these stats available, so the ONLY reason they could have for not allowing us to see them in FFXI was by choice, not laziness.

Also, just because they are trying to make the game more appealing to the casual player, doesn't mean the entire game is going to be easy.

Imo I would like to see all these hidden effects

for once you have all those latent weapons/gear and well if your not a wiz on the internet your gonna have a hard time figuring out when its working or not

Clearly seeing (+76acc, +55attk, +25% haste) would be nice

And what I have to say about "seeing xx sams would all gear the same if they knew secret stats" im gonna call BS on that

Look at any Endgame sam and your gonna see the same thing over and over again "haidate, Hagun, Osode, etc, etc" same goes with many jobs

The only thing they are doing is making us grind out the numbers but the moment they are posted on wiki, bam thats the end of the mystery.

Sooooo not being rude here but why would you want to work so hard for this its gonna be the same end result when people figure it out, posted by SE or posted on wiki

thats my 2cents

I really do see this point, actually. If melee accuracy is displayed, why not display ranged accuracy and magic accuracy? It seems unfair to the jobs that rely not on melee, but ranged or magic. Yet rather than show those two stats, I would support hiding accuracy instead. I am not sure why I though melee accuracy was shown!


I'm with Blazza here. The fact that accuracy and attack are shown is a testimony to the fact that SE could have very easily shown other stats as well. Hiding them was a very intentional act on their part.

Also, I wouldn't say hiding stats makes the game harder. It just makes you think differently than with a stat-visible game like WoW. So even if FFXIV does cater to the casual gamers, that itself won't ensure that stats will be visible. Now if they cater to the power-gamers, on the other hand...

I won't play FFXIV :P

Ninja Edit:

True, but I did note that after 7 years hiding stats isn't a great way of stopping cookie-cutter characters. However, SAM is probably the best example of this. Think about PLD. While there is a trend towards Haste+ and Enmity+ for PLD/NIN for 75+, I still see plenty of PLD/WAR turtle tanks hanging around. Quite frankly, there isn't a huge difference in effectiveness, and that line is blurred enough to prevent PLD from turning into as much of a cookie-cutter job as, in your example, SAM.

i'm just wondering why tbest plays ff games is all.

also, secret stats make people get more involved trying to figure out how they work. good fun.

wouldn't the world be boring if we knew how everything worked by just looking at it?

I'm intrigued by all your mustaches, do they affect Bart's stats?!!

The point is, if you put so much thought into your build... everyone will be the same and end up with Mario mustaches. (yes bad analogy but it works!)

By hiding stats unless you have some way of decoding the entire game, you'll never know. Thus mystery is adding the game! Making it more interesting!

PLUS, again, its a freaking game lets have some fun! Who wants to stare at numbers all day?!?!?!

real men grow 'staches like that!

the greatest example I can think of in all FF games, compared to what I want say is, the Luck stat.

Does it exist in FFXI?

Idk, idc.. but I used to carry every "lucky" item there was in game.

Hidden stats make you try to discover the "world"

The point is, why hide some things and not others.

Why are Physical Defence and Melee Attack the only things we are allowed to see numbers for?

Why is Melee Accruacy and Melee Attack the only things we can compare to the mob?

There is loads of other stats that are not show and 'we' to work out. To a point there is some fun in exploring the world and finding out new things, but why did SE decide some stats are worth showing and others aren't.

Following the current /check system I don't think it is unfair to show us:
Magic Accuracy and Ranged Accuray
Magic Attack Bonus and Ranged Attack

Exactly what Argettio said. I understand (and partially agree with) the argument of having stats being hidden bringing a special element to this game that others don't. But consider the fact that attack and defense are always shown. That's all well and good for the WAR's, MNK's, THF's, PLD's, DRK's, DRG's, etc of the world, but absolutely worthless for the rest. It's obvious that "PS2 limitations" or oversight/laziness are to blame for not showing stats like MAB/MDB, Magic Acc., Ranged Acc, Ranged Att, etc.

If you're going to make the argument that some stats should be hidden and others shouldn't, have fun justifying that to those of us who rely on those hidden stats for our jobs, while others get at least some information supplied to them. The basis of my point is, SE was extremely selective in what stats were shown. Frankly, the fact that "Attack" and "Defense" were the only ones even given a second thought raises all kinds of questions regarding how much thought was actually put in to that decision.

Hide some stats, by all means. It gives us math geeks something to do. But please, give the Rangers and Red Mages of the world something to go on. At least show our basic stats like you do the jobs that give a rat's *** about Attack and Defense. Keep it fun, but make it fair.

Really, this is closely related to the "enhanced Check function" suggestion. Maybe have "The Whatever has high evasion and low defense" for melees say "The Whatever has high ranged evasion and low ranged defense" for ranged jobs, and "The Whatever has high magic evasion and low magic defense" for mage jobs. That seems fair and still innocuous enough to give us something to do as far as data gathering.