The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2024-09-06 18:03:32  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Man, it's 2024, people are quitting left and right because the game is the same old monotony and grind. Let people have their fun and use whatever weapon they want, it's not THAT much of a dps loss. Naegling is top Sheol C dps, but sometimes I just want to look and feel like a WAR, and swinging my big *** axe and seeing 13k damage melee procs with Ukon is ultra fun. Whipping that Chango around in a 360 degree motion is super duper fly, and I don't even care what the dps is anymore. It looks cool, I'm winning :)

Amen to that. Way too many people taking things way too seriously over minor DPS changes lol. Yes, it's slightly slower but you're still gonna win so who gives a ***?
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By K123 2024-09-07 00:52:48  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
K123 said: »
Props to you if you have a group of people that let you play how you want for your $12.99, but it makes no sense to gimp your runs.

Man, it's 2024, people are quitting left and right because the game is the same old monotony and grind. Let people have their fun and use whatever weapon they want, it's not THAT much of a dps loss. Naegling is top Sheol C dps, but sometimes I just want to look and feel like a WAR, and swinging my big *** axe and seeing 13k damage melee procs with Ukon is ultra fun. Whipping that Chango around in a 360 degree motion is super duper fly, and I don't even care what the dps is anymore. It looks cool, I'm winning :)
It is pretty significantly worse though. I have bis WAR (minus R30 Nyame) and cried at Upheaval. The rate that it doesn't one shot mobs is sad.

Like I said, if you have 5 people that let you "play how you want for your $12.99" be their guest to gimp their runs.
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2024-09-07 01:50:01  
On a Sheol C farm run if there's someone that whines about a 0.21 DPS loss or not carrying the fDEX to the dSTR ^2 or something, //terminate is the easiest solution. If it's in a PUG, chances are it took someone 6 tries to leave their MH properly. If it's a static, by this point you're probably cool enough with each other to be like "Know what? Tonight's a *** around night, THF with a bow, GOOOOOOO" and nobody will give a ***. It's 2024, if anyone takes a daily grind chore seriously enough to *** about a not flawless speedrun of a nothing event, chances are you don't wanna be around Captain StickEnema anyway.
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By Seun 2024-09-07 02:02:20  
Galka is gimp even with Naegling. /micdrop
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By Atrox78 2024-09-07 06:58:33  
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
You'll need to consider when and where the bulk of your damage is coming from.

If you're in longer fights, Ukon will absolutely reign supreme for the Am white damage, that will still be quite potent for mobs with significantly less HP, and you will still likely 1 shot mobs using that since their HP will be must lower after the AM procs. Yes, it boosts Ukko, which does scale with str over vit, but G-axe Ws in general are fairly unimpressive.

Chango truly shines when needing to multi step skillchains. Fighting Kei for example since any other g axe will need to spam fell cleave to make anything higher than a 3 step.

I've been getting some good mileage out of Helheim (prime g-sword) has quite potent 3 step darkness, quite high base damage and the Am means every single hit will deal more damage, the WS is also comparable to savage blade in damage when fully buffed.

Chango beats ukon pretty handedly I'm afraid. Better ws at lower tp thresholds and you will skillchain because someone will be using savage blade. Ukons ws are just unimpressive.
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By Atrox78 2024-09-07 07:02:54  
K123 said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
K123 said: »
Props to you if you have a group of people that let you play how you want for your $12.99, but it makes no sense to gimp your runs.

Man, it's 2024, people are quitting left and right because the game is the same old monotony and grind. Let people have their fun and use whatever weapon they want, it's not THAT much of a dps loss. Naegling is top Sheol C dps, but sometimes I just want to look and feel like a WAR, and swinging my big *** axe and seeing 13k damage melee procs with Ukon is ultra fun. Whipping that Chango around in a 360 degree motion is super duper fly, and I don't even care what the dps is anymore. It looks cool, I'm winning :)
It is pretty significantly worse though. I have bis WAR (minus R30 Nyame) and cried at Upheaval. The rate that it doesn't one shot mobs is sad.
Like I said, if you have 5 people that let you "play how you want for your $12.99" be their guest to gimp their runs.

It's not significantly worse. You won't one shot everything but the follow up white damage attacks will usually be enough finish the mob off. If you're a try hard sure, you'll be a few seconds faster overall but saying you gimping a group is absurd.

At this point, war should going for a prime weapon anyway. Stage 4 GA or GS solves what you envision as a problem
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By SimonSes 2024-09-07 07:17:04  
Atrox78 said: »
Chango beats ukon pretty handedly I'm afraid. Better ws at lower tp thresholds and you will skillchain because someone will be using savage blade. Ukons ws are just unimpressive.

Every time I was checking Ukon vs Chango on sheet, Ukon was slightly ahead without skillchain damage and I wouldn't agree that you will skillchain that often in party WS spam scenario.
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By SimonSes 2024-09-07 07:22:21  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
K123 said: »
Props to you if you have a group of people that let you play how you want for your $12.99, but it makes no sense to gimp your runs.

Man, it's 2024, people are quitting left and right because the game is the same old monotony and grind. Let people have their fun and use whatever weapon they want, it's not THAT much of a dps loss. Naegling is top Sheol C dps, but sometimes I just want to look and feel like a WAR, and swinging my big *** axe and seeing 13k damage melee procs with Ukon is ultra fun. Whipping that Chango around in a 360 degree motion is super duper fly, and I don't even care what the dps is anymore. It looks cool, I'm winning :)

I suggest to go further with this at least once and at least for a week and play with Ukon build that can very rarely produce up to 50k+ crits :) Seeing one melee hit almost one shooting mobs is really satisfying.
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By Atrox78 2024-09-07 08:06:55  
SimonSes said: »
Atrox78 said: »
Chango beats ukon pretty handedly I'm afraid. Better ws at lower tp thresholds and you will skillchain because someone will be using savage blade. Ukons ws are just unimpressive.

Every time I was checking Ukon vs Chango on sheet, Ukon was slightly ahead without skillchain damage and I wouldn't agree that you will skillchain that often in party WS spam scenario.

And I'll disagree with you in practise because most long group fights have multiple people using savage which skillchains with upheaval.

I'm not saying it's bad. Just saying it's always behind chango when both are being used in a fight that I've parsed and the person asking which one to augment first, definitely chango.
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By SimonSes 2024-09-07 08:30:40  
Atrox78 said: »
I'm not saying it's bad. Just saying it's always behind chango when both are being used in a fight that I've parsed

What was your TP set for Ukon and what WS you was using and when. If you want to skillchain with Savage, I see no problem to use 2000TP+ Upheaval for that purpose. You can time it better to actually make skillchain too, because your DPS with Ukon isn't directly connected with WS frequency like with Chango.
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By Lili 2024-09-07 08:30:44  
K123 said: »
I have bis WAR (minus R30 Nyame) and cried at Upheaval. The rate that it doesn't one shot mobs is sad.

Even under the best situations, even Naegling WAR is going to have to deal with certain camps where oneshot isn't possible, and it takes 2 WS (because autoattacking is slow). At that point Upheaval is going to win because of the SC and because gaxe gains TP so much faster than swords.

The difference in killspeed is really not that great. Parses are misleading because they still count a 60k Savage Blade fully even if the mob had 5000 hp left.

SimonSes said: »
Every time I was checking Ukon vs Chango on sheet, Ukon was slightly ahead without skillchain damage and I wouldn't agree that you will skillchain that often in party WS spam scenario.

The time to build up TP to put AM3 back up, and the random nature of crits and AM3 procs, are enough to make this slight difference unnoticeable, really. One run you kill 5 mobs per camp against everyone else, the next run you're struggling to keep up.

Ultimately, there's one big differentiator: all of this math is entirely useless if you're slow to engage mobs or to switch targets. At that point just play what satisfies you the most, whether it's big spike numbers with a tiny stick, constant barrage of swings with a flowery paddle, or calmly slamming down a huge warhammer. It's all valid.
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By SimonSes 2024-09-07 12:15:07  
Lili said: »
The time to build up TP to put AM3 back up, and the random nature of crits and AM3 procs, are enough to make this slight difference unnoticeable, really. One run you kill 5 mobs per camp against everyone else, the next run you're struggling to keep up.

I wasnt talking about Ody farm tbh, but this description of ody farm is very good from my experience. Sometimes few crits will destroy them mob, sometimes you will be unlucky.

Anyway most important thing about ukon is using special TP set for it, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
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By Atrox78 2024-09-07 15:59:44  
SimonSes said: »
Atrox78 said: »
I'm not saying it's bad. Just saying it's always behind chango when both are being used in a fight that I've parsed

What was your TP set for Ukon and what WS you was using and when. If you want to skillchain with Savage, I see no problem to use 2000TP+ Upheaval for that purpose. You can time it better to actually make skillchain too, because your DPS with Ukon isn't directly connected with WS frequency like with Chango.

My ukon tp set does not exist. My ls mate has the proper crit set.
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By Phoenix.Gavroches 2024-09-07 17:37:54  
POV of my 2 cents WAR, stick to SB WAR and save the inventory, I’m sure there’s content for anything but SB won’t be far behind and way ahead in 70% of the contents. In odyssey I daily exceed 7M, sometimes 8 and my war doesn’t have the VR rings merits and other ***. Wished they did better weapon (great mace: blunt ?!?) for WAR but they didn’t…

Seeing those crit might make you happy though but that’s about it
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-07 18:32:18  
Phoenix.Gavroches said: »
In odyssey I daily exceed 7M, sometimes 8 and my war doesn’t have the VR rings merits and other ***.

Tell me more about your WAR which you couldn't be bothered to get merits for.
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By Hopalong 2024-09-07 21:18:55  
Am I reading that right, daily you get 7M from odyssey?
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By Seun 2024-09-08 01:39:09  
Hopalong said: »
Am I reading that right, daily you get 7M from odyssey?

Damage, not gil.
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By K123 2024-09-08 02:34:55  
Atrox78 said: »

It's not significantly worse. You won't one shot everything but the follow up white damage attacks will usually be enough finish the mob off. If you're a try hard sure, you'll be a few seconds faster overall but saying you gimping a group is absurd.
Gimping is subjective but granted this forum is normally full of elitists then any drop in speed (and it's significant in my opinion) is gimped by this forum's normal standard.
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By K123 2024-09-08 02:39:07  
Lili said: »
Even under the best situations, even Naegling WAR is going to have to deal with certain camps where oneshot isn't possible, and it takes 2 WS (because autoattacking is slow). At that point Upheaval is going to win because of the SC and because gaxe gains TP so much faster than swords.

The difference in killspeed is really not that great. Parses are misleading because they still count a 60k Savage Blade fully even if the mob had 5000 hp left.

The time to build up TP to put AM3 back up, and the random nature of crits and AM3 procs, are enough to make this slight difference unnoticeable, really. One run you kill 5 mobs per camp against everyone else, the next run you're struggling to keep up.
I haven't mentioned parsing at all and I don't count fake damage above the mobs remaining hp in my assessment
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By Sylph.Timepassesbye 2024-09-09 06:18:25  
Atrox78 said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
You'll need to consider when and where the bulk of your damage is coming from.

If you're in longer fights, Ukon will absolutely reign supreme for the Am white damage, that will still be quite potent for mobs with significantly less HP, and you will still likely 1 shot mobs using that since their HP will be must lower after the AM procs. Yes, it boosts Ukko, which does scale with str over vit, but G-axe Ws in general are fairly unimpressive.

Chango truly shines when needing to multi step skillchains. Fighting Kei for example since any other g axe will need to spam fell cleave to make anything higher than a 3 step.

I've been getting some good mileage out of Helheim (prime g-sword) has quite potent 3 step darkness, quite high base damage and the Am means every single hit will deal more damage, the WS is also comparable to savage blade in damage when fully buffed.

Chango beats ukon pretty handedly I'm afraid. Better ws at lower tp thresholds and you will skillchain because someone will be using savage blade. Ukons ws are just unimpressive.


I'd just like to point out, notice how I said when skillchains are a factor, chango is the better option. Both are solid weapon choices, and should be utilized in different settings, Chango whenever you're planning to skillchain, Ukon whenever you are not planning to skillchain or hold TP. People also have full crit builds with Ukon that absolutely blow chango's damage out of the water. I'm not one of those individuals as I'm still building my ukon. This however does go back to another point I made about g-axe ws being somewhat unimpressive. Any long party fight (sortie bosses, oddy bosses, dyna w 2/3 bosses), yes, you will likely get the random skillchain but they will not be consistent unless your whole party is synergized around you. I would agree that Chango has the higher damage potential there, but that's not the same as practical guaranteed damage. White damage is going to happen regardless of skillchains, and when an individual is critting for 8-10k, that massively offsets the potential bonus from a random skillchain and an additional 5-10k bonus to upheaval with chango.

What I will say as a final note is that it's worth investing in both and I encourage experimenting with both to actually parse the damage difference out.
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By SimonSes 2024-09-09 07:05:26  
This is the log with me fooling around with pure Ukon white damage build. Around the time I used SPs, Dhartok also got drowning aura/cloud (which lower damage significantly) and I was boxing, so I couldn't properly position myself to avoid it. You can probably get the idea though.
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By Taint 2024-09-09 07:51:46  
I've had both for a long time and I agree Ukon is wildly underrated. But I wouldn't make one before Chango.

The biggest issue with Chango is it feels weak, but it parses exceptionally well.
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By SimonSes 2024-09-09 07:59:14  
This is the highest damage I made in one round too (without any gimmicks like target taking bonus damage), but chance for this to happen is ridiculously low and requires the sacrifice of TP bonus moonshade, which I simply can't recommend for the long run, but I recommend temporary for a fun time :D
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[2] [Baniak] 75613 critical hit Locus Colibri
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By K123 2024-09-09 08:35:03  
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.
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By Asura.Saevel 2024-09-09 09:47:13  
Taint said: »
I've had both for a long time and I agree Ukon is wildly underrated. But I wouldn't make one before Chango.

The biggest issue with Chango is it feels weak, but it parses exceptionally well.

Chango R15 is pretty amazing in damage, and I'm not including SC. It's a combination of Store TP +10, TP Bonus +500 and Upheaval giving a high TP return. The last two are more important then people realize because it lets you belt out moderate to high damage WS's at a very high rate. WAR/DRG with Naegling is going to get low TP return but high damage. Of course the player needs to be quick are target control and Seg farming is all about overkilling everything by 10~30%.

Of all the different weapon sets I find Helheim to be working the best so far. I'm also extremely good at having my next target lined up prior to by current one dieing.
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By Taint 2024-09-09 10:14:57  
Helheim is definitely one of the better Primes. GS lacks utility which is its only crutch. As a DPS tool its extremely strong.
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By Sylph.Timepassesbye 2024-09-09 10:36:13  
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.
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By Asura.Saevel 2024-09-09 12:29:03  
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
K123 said: »
Chango would parse higher than Ukon in Sheol C due to SC damage, same as Doji vs Masamune, but Ukon and Masamune kill faster (actual aim) I believe.

forgive my ignorance here, but how often are you able to make skillchains in shoel c? From my recollection, unless you're righting a NM, the mobs don't have enough health to survive a second WS, let alone a skillchain.

Yeah you don't really make SC's in Sheol C, things die in a single WS normally, two at most. Only place I can think SC's might happen as Agon mobs since those tend to have a lot more HP then regular mobs.
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-09 12:39:32  
With single-wielding WAR being nowhere near the delay cap, it's also realistic to think a GA WAR could get 2 WS off in nearly the same amount of time that a single-wield WAR can get one WS off, possibly faster.

Especially if you consider retaliation TP (possibly from multiple mobs), the higher TP return from the initial WS, higher TP per hit, and STP on the weapon.

I haven't played WAR so I can't say for certain, but I've played with a shitload of them, including SW and 2H and there's a very noticeable difference in the rate at which they WS.
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By Asura.Melliny 2024-09-09 13:07:33  
Let's be realistic here. Laphria is a much better G Axe than Chango for weaponskill spam. I have both and if I'm gonna run sheol C Laphria is leagues better than Chango. Helheim is versatile and can be used by multiple jobs, but Laphria is very much its equivalent and feels better to me as a warrior weapon. Wielding a G Axe just feels right, and Laphria is pretty amazing.

Quote:
With single-wielding WAR being nowhere near the delay cap, it's also realistic to think a GA WAR could get 2 WS off in nearly the same amount of time that a single-wield WAR can get one WS off, possibly faster.

Laphria's attack speed is its biggest strength. You want to wait until you're close to 2k TP to use disaster, and because of its high attack speed it's just a white damage powerhouse, and disaster is top tier too. It's extremely efficient at killing mobs, and I'm pretty sure it beats out Ukon for seg farms. Ukon has even higher white damage sure, but disaster is so much stronger than ukko's fury that it more than makes up the difference.
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