Scourge > resolution is self light sc. No, the aftermath is no where near worth maintaining, but it has a use.
Dps spreadsheets rarely math rem correctly. I'm pretty certain macbain vs rag/conq in reality is overestimated in this case. Would be nice to see some actual data before labeled as "garbage"
The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
Shiva.Flowen said: » Scourge > resolution is self light sc. No, the aftermath is no where near worth maintaining, but it has a use. Dps spreadsheets rarely math rem correctly. I'm pretty certain macbain vs rag/conq in reality is overestimated in this case. Would be nice to see some actual data before labeled as "garbage" What is this based off of? Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Scourge > resolution is self light sc. No, the aftermath is no where near worth maintaining, but it has a use. Dps spreadsheets rarely math rem correctly. I'm pretty certain macbain vs rag/conq in reality is overestimated in this case. Would be nice to see some actual data before labeled as "garbage" What is this based off of? Edit: Under data it does show some form of relic bonus, although I do not know how it is modeled. Quote: Both your tests and your doubts are missplaced. The ragnarok bandwagon is over, its a pretty garbage weapon right along side the rest of the relics. Conq is good, but even with perfect AM3 maintenance it falls behind Macbain due to shitty weaponskills. As for Conq falling behind Macbain, this is only true for certain situations. The only situation I found Macbain beating Conq in is an absolutely overcapping attack scenario which nullifies the attack penalty on Resolution. Removing just one major attack buff (Berserk, Fury, Frailty, Chaos, lesser extent Food) is a huge blow to Macbains power and will result in Mythic beating it. What this means is that sure if you are doing Delve with a full Cor/Brd/Geo setup you can ride Macbain but in harder events you will really not want to use this weapon, this is completely ignoring accuracy also. Let's not forget that Macbain cannot skillchain to make light, this makes the weapon nearly useless no matter what DPS it puts out when compared to a Conq using Ukkos. I haven't done much Vagary yet but from what I hear not only are DDs not really buffed much but the mobs have pretty high stats (at least Evasion), in this case I really think Macbain is not a viable weapon, also SC MBs seem to be a big deal in there. Asura.Failaras said: » Quote: Both your tests and your doubts are missplaced. The ragnarok bandwagon is over, its a pretty garbage weapon right along side the rest of the relics. Conq is good, but even with perfect AM3 maintenance it falls behind Macbain due to shitty weaponskills. As for Conq falling behind Macbain, this is only true for certain situations. The only situation I found Macbain beating Conq in is an absolutely overcapping attack scenario which nullifies the attack penalty on Resolution. Removing just one major attack buff (Berserk, Fury, Frailty, Chaos, lesser extent Food) is a huge blow to Macbains power and will result in Mythic beating it. What this means is that sure if you are doing Delve with a full Cor/Brd/Geo setup you can ride Macbain but in harder events you will really not want to use this weapon, this is completely ignoring accuracy also. Let's not forget that Macbain cannot skillchain to make light, this makes the weapon nearly useless no matter what DPS it puts out when compared to a Conq using Ukkos. I haven't done much Vagary yet but from what I hear not only are DDs not really buffed much but the mobs have pretty high stats (at least Evasion), in this case I really think Macbain is not a viable weapon, also SC MBs seem to be a big deal in there. Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Sylph.Nemn said: » Hello All: What advice would you give to a returning player who before hand only had played until before the ToAU release. Who is now playing a new char leveling SAM, but thinks WAR sounds much more fun/personal play style focused (to them)? Is the gear reliance for warriors on par with other jobs or is it steeper? Do I need a REM weapon 100%? Or are there other paths? If one is needed and with the change to not needed floor 100, how easier is it now to make a Mythic? Also what the hell is AM3 (aftermath 3)? Thanks guys! If you want to play warrior and be competitive, your gear needs to be pretty top notch to be competitive with other jobs. REM is not a requirement, in fact ukon/bravura are pretty outdated at the moment. Conq remains the best GA by far, and is the best weapon when skillchain damage/potential is taken into consideration. Macbain with good augments spamming resolution is now the strongest option for warriors. But, reso has shitty ws properties, and with the skillchain/magic burst trend, it's something to be taken into consideration depending on your party setup. As far as the difficulty of a mythic goes. A majority of the assault/nyzul portion is soloable now, there are lots of einherjar shouts everyday, and salvage is soloable. If you were to solo the alex portion by farming salvage it would take over 200 days and/or runs. Otherwise, if you have means of earning money (plenty of ways to do it atm) alex usually sells for 7-8k/each so your overall price would be between 210-240m. So it's really just a matter of a little patience and a fair amount of grinding various tedious tasks. As far as discussing warrior, and a good background on the job, there is this thread:War Guide Hope this is helpful! Edit: AM3 stands for Aftermath Level 3 For mythics, this means 20% occasionally attacks 3x, 40% occasionally attacks 2x. I have always wondered if people take into consideration retaliation damage and the tp return from it when comparing to other top DD. With buffs being equal and keeping the mobs attention with a good high enmity provoke set a warriors damage goes up by a significant amount. Now this is mainly from eyeballing and numerous linkshell event parses. In regards to skillchain damage a fully buffed warrior can skillchain as fast as a samurai but we do not have as many options for longer step skillchains.
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The comparison is most likely in a capped attack & accuracy scenario, without skillchains factored in (where macbain shines). I think you'll find the difference between the weapon contenders a lot closer dps wise than you seen to think in most cases.
What about current great axe hierarchy? I haven't seen many svarga about? The March update, devivifier(?) looks awesome I was really excited about Devivifier because it just straight up outclasses Minos in every way, but it doesn't really fix the fact that Warrior is just outclassed currently. The spreadsheet has no way (that I know of) to add Double Attack Damage so I can't properly model it but it is at least a huge upgrade over Minos/Lightbringer. Honestly I'm disappointed that even after the addition of a great Gaxe, tons of Unity gear, a reforged Empy set that is honestly pretty amazing, and Acro, Warrior is still just not even close to where other DDs currently are. They really need to just look at buffing Ukkos by quite a bit, even buffing Reso/Upheaval/KJ wouldn't really help because of lackluster SC properties.
I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra
Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase Shiva.Flowen said: » Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase By adjusting the parameters of weaponskills in the spreadsheet to zero, you can get pretty close to what DPS would be based on melee only. In that situation, ragnarok is less than 2% ahead of Macbain. The occasionally deals 2.5 damage only procs on the first hit of melee rounds at a pretty lousy percent. The crit hit rate is nice, but with both of those it's barely enough to pull ahead. The 80 extra base damage and 6% DA pretty much make up for that. As soon as you add in weaponskills, rag gets ***on by 10% minimum. Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase By adjusting the parameters of weaponskills in the spreadsheet to zero, you can get pretty close to what DPS would be based on melee only. In that situation, ragnarok is less than 2% ahead of Macbain. The occasionally deals 2.5 damage only procs on the first hit of melee rounds at a pretty lousy percent. The crit hit rate is nice, but with both of those it's barely enough to pull ahead. The 80 extra base damage and 6% DA pretty much make up for that. As soon as you add in weaponskills, rag gets ***on by 10% minimum. You need less store tp to 6 hit rag than you do 5 hit macbain. Making room for more multi strikes. 80 more base dmg but you swing 6 times in the time it takes to swing macbain 5 times (more or less). X2.5 adds 15% to white damage assuming 50% multistrikes. 14% crit rate is around a 10% increase in white damage. Not to mention accuracy. I think you're underestimating rag and making a lot of assumptions. Macbain will win in a zerg, but there won't be much between them in many scenarios Shiva.Flowen said: » Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase By adjusting the parameters of weaponskills in the spreadsheet to zero, you can get pretty close to what DPS would be based on melee only. In that situation, ragnarok is less than 2% ahead of Macbain. The occasionally deals 2.5 damage only procs on the first hit of melee rounds at a pretty lousy percent. The crit hit rate is nice, but with both of those it's barely enough to pull ahead. The 80 extra base damage and 6% DA pretty much make up for that. As soon as you add in weaponskills, rag gets ***on by 10% minimum. You need less store tp to 6 hit rag than you do 5 hit macbain. Making room for more multi strikes. 80 more base dmg but you swing 6 times in the time it takes to swing macbain 5 times (more or less). X2.5 adds 15% to white damage assuming 50% multistrikes. 14% crit rate is around a 10% increase in white damage. Not to mention accuracy. I think you're underestimating rag and making a lot of assumptions. Macbain will win in a zerg, but there won't be much between them in many scenarios Bismarck.Bigheadkitty said: » I have always wondered if people take into consideration retaliation damage and the tp return from it when comparing to other top DD. With buffs being equal and keeping the mobs attention with a good high enmity provoke set a warriors damage goes up by a significant amount. Now this is mainly from eyeballing and numerous linkshell event parses. In regards to skillchain damage a fully buffed warrior can skillchain as fast as a samurai but we do not have as many options for longer step skillchains. I'm wondering about this too. My first 119 weapon was Qalgwer, so naturally I experimented with Retaliation. This made me realize when a Warrior has aggro, they keep aggro. Retaliation doesn't really change much in bleeding edge content like Vagary where everything is tanked and supertanked by Paladins, but for certain BCNMs and Skirmish (which I admit are easy) Warrior is one hell of a threat. Just for fun I'm going to try and get good augments on Yorium gear so I can just go full turtle mode and try to tank with Retaliate, see how much damage I can do. Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase By adjusting the parameters of weaponskills in the spreadsheet to zero, you can get pretty close to what DPS would be based on melee only. In that situation, ragnarok is less than 2% ahead of Macbain. The occasionally deals 2.5 damage only procs on the first hit of melee rounds at a pretty lousy percent. The crit hit rate is nice, but with both of those it's barely enough to pull ahead. The 80 extra base damage and 6% DA pretty much make up for that. As soon as you add in weaponskills, rag gets ***on by 10% minimum. You need less store tp to 6 hit rag than you do 5 hit macbain. Making room for more multi strikes. 80 more base dmg but you swing 6 times in the time it takes to swing macbain 5 times (more or less). X2.5 adds 15% to white damage assuming 50% multistrikes. 14% crit rate is around a 10% increase in white damage. Not to mention accuracy. I think you're underestimating rag and making a lot of assumptions. Macbain will win in a zerg, but there won't be much between them in many scenarios The difference in sTP mostly negates the 6 DA that my Macbain has on it. After that Rag's 13% proc rate for 2.5x damage and 14% crits makes it much more then 2% melee damage increase, especially if your fighting something difficult enough for the 35 acc to mean something and attack isn't anywhere near 2.0. That Idris Geo is giving you Vex / Attunement instead of Fury / Frailty or Torpor so you can survive and not be steamrolled by all the OP TP moves and status ailments high end boss's use. Mostly the two weapons are equal with Rag being a far bigger investment, which is why I wouldn't recommend anyone make one. Rag is no longer unequivocally the best GS, it's now a situational piece depending on content. Of course the type of content you'd use it on is the type people don't like bringing WAR to anyway so this all might be moote. The correct answer is still for SE to fix GAXE. Asura.Saevel said: » Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Shiva.Flowen said: » Asura.Saevel said: » I have a perfectly augmented Macbain and the difference isn't that big between it and Rag, really situationally dependent on buffs and what not. Macbain is ~17% stronger on resolution due to Reso getting so much of it's base damage from that 85% STR mod. Rag has higher melee damage, especially if your not attack capped due to the scaling of crits and +CHD, the extra 35 Acc helps also in that same situation. If your in a fight where Amnesia / TP stealing / gear lock / ect.., basically anytime you can't WS non-stop, then Rag also gets extra damage. Macbain only WS's 4.4% faster because 510 delay. Macbain 5-hit requires 38 Store TP in melee and 30 in WS assuming at least first +3 hits land on Reso. Rag requires something like 33 / 30 Store TP for a 6-hit, so a slightly different build. Here is how the delay breaks down for WS + swings. 256 Gear Haste 448 Magic Haste 100 JA haste (did we ever get a definitive value for hasso?) 804/1024 = 78.51%, 0.2149 multiplier 510 x 4 = 2040 * 0.2149 = 438.39 + 120 (2s pause after WS) = 558.39 delay until 1000 TP 431 x 5 = 2155 * 0.2149 = 463.10 + 120 = 583.10 583.10/558.39 = 0.04425 or 4.425% difference. Mcbain has a 20% Crit Rate, Rag has 34% Crit Rate and both have the same 29% CHD. For MSBR rush's Mcbain wins easily and on content where your atk / acc cap Mcbain easily wins. On hard stuff, it's a toss up because I have no idea how to model out amnesia / ect. where your don't WS as often. So I wouldn't suggest anyone build a Rag, but if they already have one it could still find a use in certain high end fights. The real answer to all this is for SE to f*cking fix GAXE already. Turn Ukko's Fury into a three hit 2.25 fTP WS that copies fTP and call it a day, maybe even higher fTP values. This is more what I was expecting. Also the occasionally deals x2.5 is a significant white damage increase By adjusting the parameters of weaponskills in the spreadsheet to zero, you can get pretty close to what DPS would be based on melee only. In that situation, ragnarok is less than 2% ahead of Macbain. The occasionally deals 2.5 damage only procs on the first hit of melee rounds at a pretty lousy percent. The crit hit rate is nice, but with both of those it's barely enough to pull ahead. The 80 extra base damage and 6% DA pretty much make up for that. As soon as you add in weaponskills, rag gets ***on by 10% minimum. You need less store tp to 6 hit rag than you do 5 hit macbain. Making room for more multi strikes. 80 more base dmg but you swing 6 times in the time it takes to swing macbain 5 times (more or less). X2.5 adds 15% to white damage assuming 50% multistrikes. 14% crit rate is around a 10% increase in white damage. Not to mention accuracy. I think you're underestimating rag and making a lot of assumptions. Macbain will win in a zerg, but there won't be much between them in many scenarios The difference in sTP mostly negates the 6 DA that my Macbain has on it. After that Rag's 13% proc rate for 2.5x damage and 14% crits makes it much more then 2% melee damage increase, especially if your fighting something difficult enough for the 35 acc to mean something and attack isn't anywhere near 2.0. That Idris Geo is giving you Vex / Attunement instead of Fury / Frailty or Torpor so you can survive and not be steamrolled by all the OP TP moves and status ailments high end boss's use. Mostly the two weapons are equal with Rag being a far bigger investment, which is why I wouldn't recommend anyone make one. Rag is no longer unequivocally the best GS, it's now a situational piece depending on content. Of course the type of content you'd use it on is the type people don't like bringing WAR to anyway so this all might be moote. The correct answer is still for SE to fix GAXE. What piece would you be dropping 5 stp and gaining 6 double attack? And what are you basing the 2.5x damage and 14% crit being more than 2% off of, the eyeballing and guesswork is strong. Quote: What piece would you be dropping 5 stp and gaining 6 double attack? And what are you basing the 2.5x damage and 14% crit being more than 2% off of, the eyeballing and guesswork is strong. At least I'm objective and not biasing anything for or against due to certain relics + job combos being so godly in previous content that it earned a bandwagon status. Things are "bandwagon" precisely because they are so effective as to be broken or semi-broken. Rag DMG: 224 Delay 431 31.18 base DPS Macbain (DMG+36 DA+6 Atk/Acc+15) (this is mine) DMG: 268+36 Delay 510 35.76 base DPS Assuming you have about 250STR in your TP set and the target has 200 VIT, that gives you +13 fSTR. Rag: 32.99 DPS Macbain: 37.29 DPS That makes it 13% stronger for melee damage before anything else. Rag has +14% crit rate and 16% proc of 250% damage (I was incorrect earlier, the 13% is from a low level version). Now since the 16% is only on the first swing and WAR has a metric sh!t ton of DA, you will get an effective proc rate of 8.8% (@45% DA). 250% increase at 8.8% rate gives you an increased DPS of 22% (2.5 * 0.088), at 50% DA it becomes a 20% increase, at 57% (1.57 average attack per round) you get 17.2%. The 2.5x proc alone makes Rag stronger for melee then the Macbain, the +crit just ups the value more. Where Macbain shines is WS damage where it's approximately 17% stronger then Rag per WS and does 4.4% more of them. That is usually enough for it to overcome Rag's melee damage. And that's all assuming accuracy means nothing, which isn't true on anything harder then Delve 1. What we get is two sets of numbers based on what assumptions are made. Delve 1 and under content, basically 119 and anything requiring less then 1000 accuracy where you can capped or near capped pDiff, Macbain beats Rag no question. At 126+ where you start needing acc sets, layered acc buffs and where your attack is lucky to be over 1.5 pDiff, Rag starts to pull ahead, especially if you account for the fact you won't be WSing precisely at 1000 anymore due to sh!tty debuffs or fight mechanics. Though to be perfectly honest, I can't see anyone bringing a WAR to those events anyway due to it not having a powerful light / darkness WS so this entire discussion is academic. To Delve level content use Macbain To content you will be asked to go something else, bring Rag #Note# A word about excessive use of big adjectives to describe extremely small differences. Often we like to use words like "destroy / crush / ect.." to imply a much larger difference then what really exists. Often we are talking about 5~10% difference under ideal circumstances with realized differences being less then half that. Inversely we do the same things towards items we perceive to be lessor status. "Duplus crush's Pole grip, Pole sucks" would be a good example of this since the actual difference between then is a fraction of a percent. This has lead to the idolizing of "+1" gear without paying attention to the situational aspect of, well everything. I've been guilty of this myself and have started being a bit more careful lately. Asura.Saevel said: » Quote: What piece would you be dropping 5 stp and gaining 6 double attack? And what are you basing the 2.5x damage and 14% crit being more than 2% off of, the eyeballing and guesswork is strong. At least I'm objective and not biasing anything for or against due to certain relics + job combos being so godly in previous content that it earned a bandwagon status. Things are "bandwagon" precisely because they are so effective as to be broken or semi-broken. Rag DMG: 224 Delay 431 31.18 base DPS Macbain (DMG+36 DA+6 Atk/Acc+15) (this is mine) DMG: 268+36 Delay 510 35.76 base DPS Assuming you have about 250STR in your TP set and the target has 200 VIT, that gives you +13 fSTR. Rag: 32.99 DPS Macbain: 37.29 DPS That makes it 13% stronger for melee damage before anything else. Rag has +14% crit rate and 16% proc of 250% damage (I was incorrect earlier, the 13% is from a low level version). Now since the 16% is only on the first swing and WAR has a metric sh!t ton of DA, you will get an effective proc rate of 8.8% (@45% DA). 250% increase at 8.8% rate gives you an increased DPS of 22% (2.5 * 0.088), at 50% DA it becomes a 20% increase, at 57% (1.57 average attack per round) you get 17.2%. The 2.5x proc alone makes Rag stronger for melee then the Macbain, the +crit just ups the value more. Where Macbain shines is WS damage where it's approximately 17% stronger then Rag per WS and does 4.4% more of them. That is usually enough for it to overcome Rag's melee damage. And that's all assuming accuracy means nothing, which isn't true on anything harder then Delve 1. What we get is two sets of numbers based on what assumptions are made. Delve 1 and under content, basically 119 and anything requiring less then 1000 accuracy where you can capped or near capped pDiff, Macbain beats Rag no question. At 126+ where you start needing acc sets, layered acc buffs and where your attack is lucky to be over 1.5 pDiff, Rag starts to pull ahead, especially if you account for the fact you won't be WSing precisely at 1000 anymore due to sh!tty debuffs or fight mechanics. Though to be perfectly honest, I can't see anyone bringing a WAR to those events anyway due to it not having a powerful light / darkness WS so this entire discussion is academic. To Delve level content use Macbain To content you will be asked to go something else, bring Rag #Note# A word about excessive use of big adjectives to describe extremely small differences. Often we like to use words like "destroy / crush / ect.." to imply a much larger difference then what really exists. Often we are talking about 5~10% difference under ideal circumstances with realized differences being less then half that. Inversely we do the same things towards items we perceive to be lessor status. "Duplus crush's Pole grip, Pole sucks" would be a good example of this since the actual difference between then is a fraction of a percent. This has lead to the idolizing of "+1" gear without paying attention to the situational aspect of, well everything. I've been guilty of this myself and have started being a bit more careful lately. So what, you plugged in assuming no buffs at all? sure, of course rag will win. I certainly hope you don't actually do content without any buffs tho. Also, sure HQ gear is often only a 1% increase, but when you have up to 14 slots, that is potentially a 14% difference if each piece is HQ. To each their own, but i'd expect anyone with a mythic to aim for nothing less than +1 on everything attainable. Quote: So what, you plugged in assuming no buffs at all? Haste effects both equally and I was already assuming accuracy being capped. The only one that is variable is attack which to be perfectly honest will definitely not be capped on anything worth mentioning. Bosses are now rocking 2000+ defense and that Idris geo is doing Vex / Attunement to keep you alive. If my mythic BLU with Berserk (+25% attack), Nat Med (+20% Attack) and a sh!t ton more accuracy isn't capping attack, then my Warrior won't be either. This is the difference between someone just checking off everything on the right and using "Tojil" as their platform, and someone factoring in real situations like the Perfidian / Plouton we fought this weekend. Get over your dislike for a particular bandwagon weapon, it was bandwagon for a reason and that reason still exists. And do you really not understand what those base DPS numbers mean? Asura.Saevel said: » Quote: So what, you plugged in assuming no buffs at all? Haste effects both equally and I was already assuming accuracy being capped. The only one that is variable is attack which to be perfectly honest will definitely not be capped on anything worth mentioning. Bosses are now rocking 2000+ defense and that Idris geo is doing Vex / Attunement to keep you alive. If my mythic BLU with Berserk (+25% attack), Nat Med (+20% Attack) and a sh!t ton more accuracy isn't capping attack, then my Warrior won't be either. This is the difference between someone just checking off everything on the right and using "Tojil" as their platform, and someone factoring in real situations like the Perfidian / Plouton we fought this weekend. Get over your dislike for a particular bandwagon weapon, it was bandwagon for a reason and that reason still exists. And do you really not understand what those base DPS numbers mean? oh wow, your linkshell beat perfidian and plouton? you guise must be really good! Maybe if I start using sub-par weapons and gearing for "real" events I can be strong too!
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O.o?
Haste is a percentage... it effects everything equally in terms of DPS. Hell I even demonstrated that in time till 1000 values above. Now if I wanted to be real, you won't have capped accuracy all the time, you'll be no where near capped attack and you'll have amnesia / encumbrance / plague and your TP stolen / removed on occasion. This is the nature of FFXI boss's and all their sh!tty TP moves that even an Idris Vex / Attunement doesn't always block. The rest is just you trying to get personal since you can't discuss the topic objectively. Ragnarok.Fasaga said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Quote: So what, you plugged in assuming no buffs at all? Haste effects both equally and I was already assuming accuracy being capped. The only one that is variable is attack which to be perfectly honest will definitely not be capped on anything worth mentioning. Bosses are now rocking 2000+ defense and that Idris geo is doing Vex / Attunement to keep you alive. If my mythic BLU with Berserk (+25% attack), Nat Med (+20% Attack) and a sh!t ton more accuracy isn't capping attack, then my Warrior won't be either. This is the difference between someone just checking off everything on the right and using "Tojil" as their platform, and someone factoring in real situations like the Perfidian / Plouton we fought this weekend. Get over your dislike for a particular bandwagon weapon, it was bandwagon for a reason and that reason still exists. And do you really not understand what those base DPS numbers mean? oh wow, your linkshell beat perfidian and plouton? you guise must be really good! Maybe if I start using sub-par weapons and gearing for "real" events I can be strong too! Unfortunately a screenshot of mythic and having a good Ls won't make you win your argument and still makes your original comment that rag is "garbage" just wrong, but for warriors coming to this page for advice: if you have rag, it's still a great weapon, if you don't and want to make a greatsword, save yourself some gil and augment macbain (although self light sc with scourge, aftermath and x2.5 procs does result in more fun, which should be a deciding factor for any game)
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As someone who doesn't want to spend millions on Macbain augments or a RME, what's a good weapon for endgame? Is Aizkora from Azrael Unity any good? Or does a +12 DMG, +18 Attack, +3 DA Macbain with fully merited Resolution beat that? I also have an Ixtab with OAT but I have a feeling that's only really useful for fodder.
Ixtab is fine for old content, for current endgame it is crap (accuracy will be the main issue). Macbain will win, but just do skirmish and dont spend a dime to get more DMG and ACC.
Pops are expensive though. WAR isn't my main job atm so I'm not looking to dump a ton of stones into Macbain that I could dump into other things. I'll work on it, but until I upgrade my Macbain further, would Aizkora be better? Or is Resolution that good compared to Upheaval/Ukko's?
Phoenix.Ariant said: » As someone who doesn't want to spend millions on Macbain augments or a RME, what's a good weapon for endgame? Is Aizkora from Azrael Unity any good? Or does a +12 DMG, +18 Attack, +3 DA Macbain with fully merited Resolution beat that? I also have an Ixtab with OAT but I have a feeling that's only really useful for fodder. I recently got devivifier from Rancibus (vagary boss). It's a beautiful great axe, and even with great axe falling short of great sword in many situations, it still puts out competitive damage. The increases double attack damage +15 is not to be overlooked (~10% white dmg increase for 50 double attack) let alone 25acc 5% DA and high base dmg. Macbain is very good but can end up sinking some cash into the augments.
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Phoenix.Ariant said: » Pops are expensive though. WAR isn't my main job atm so I'm not looking to dump a ton of stones into Macbain that I could dump into other things. I'll work on it, but until I upgrade my Macbain further, would Aizkora be better? Or is Resolution that good compared to Upheaval/Ukko's? The Devivifier is a really good alternative though GAXE WS's are kinda weak right now. For great swords your only choices really are Rag or Macbain, the next best (Rank 15 Kbiroj) is far enough down that the GAXE options overtake it easily. Macbain is going to cost 5~20 million depending on how lucky you get with Duskslit +2's. The +DMG augment can be a PITA to get over the other stupid stuff like PDT / HP / ect. Upheaval isn't a bad WS, it's just clunky to gear around. Ukko's Fury needs updating badly as it's fTP is pretty low compared to everything else and it's what you need to use to chain light. Phoenix.Ariant said: » Bismarck.Bigheadkitty said: » I have always wondered if people take into consideration retaliation damage and the tp return from it when comparing to other top DD. With buffs being equal and keeping the mobs attention with a good high enmity provoke set a warriors damage goes up by a significant amount. Now this is mainly from eyeballing and numerous linkshell event parses. In regards to skillchain damage a fully buffed warrior can skillchain as fast as a samurai but we do not have as many options for longer step skillchains. I'm wondering about this too. My first 119 weapon was Qalgwer, so naturally I experimented with Retaliation. This made me realize when a Warrior has aggro, they keep aggro. Retaliation doesn't really change much in bleeding edge content like Vagary where everything is tanked and supertanked by Paladins, but for certain BCNMs and Skirmish (which I admit are easy) Warrior is one hell of a threat. Just for fun I'm going to try and get good augments on Yorium gear so I can just go full turtle mode and try to tank with Retaliate, see how much damage I can do. this is a very depressing fact about this ability so no point in taking it into consideration for any calculation. Ok worked it out, yeah it's a 4hit build. Shoulda figured it. Any chance Yorium is competitive at least in the head slot? More STP, more acc. |
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