For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Depending on your other gear, Skadi+1 can beat Thaumas for some pre-Adoulin fodder content (DW+7, and you can cap haste with none from body slot).

Also, for TP on difficult ilevel content, you probably don't want Thaumas because it puts you at a massive defensive disadvantage versus ilevel options. I personally like Qaaxo B R15 for most high end stuff, nice combination of defense/PDT- and Acc/other offensive stats.


AF119 head/body/hands/legs are excellent for SA and TA too. Hands are a very good TP option.

Vs mobs where you're capping attack, Thaumas (or Skadi+1) wins easily. Though if you have 5/5 Ambush, Plunderer+1 with the Ambush bonus comes pretty close.

If you're not capping attack and are getting the Ambush bonus, Plunderer+1 can win (2 merits for vs Thaumas build, 3 merits for vs Skadi+1 build).

If you're not capping attack and not getting the Ambush bonus, Plunderer+1 basically ties Qaaxo R15A, while both are a small bit behind Thaumas and Skadi+1.


In each case, Qaaxo and Plunderer+1 are obviously far better defensively. In the case where Thaumas/Skadi has the greatest lead, its lack of defense has the smallest downsides, so certainly use it there. In cases where it has the smallest lead, the defensive benefits of the others may outweigh the small offensive penalty. And if you have at least a few merits in Ambush, and can make use of the job trait bonus, Plunderer+1 beats all.

Just a 2cents thing, as thf, there is almost 0% of the time I'm (personally) ever behind a mob... do people actually merit ambush? I would get absolutely zero use out of it, other than the first < 30 seconds it takes to cap out enmity... parse leader is usually tanking.

And even if you aren't a top-notch thf, anything you'd take a thf to, the damn mobs spin like a top, never actually standing still long enough to make use of it... hell the only use you can even get out of SA is with bully sometimes.

(maybe just my experiences? maybe your groups/servers vary wildly?)

I just eye rolled so hard that it hurts.

If you aren't good enough to win parses, don't hate on me, improve yourself. Granted I'm not playing against epic level players.

It was a simple (series of) question(s).

Do people actually merit ambush?
I would get absolutely zero use out of it, the damn mobs spin like a top.

Maybe just my experiences?

PLD + RNG strat AA's or DMII, stick a thf in there in for TH, mob isnt spinning at all, pretty sure you would have no problems standing behind it.

I mean yeah.. if that's all you're doing is Th'ing it. I meant, like actual scenarios, not pld + rng. Never seen a THF brought to anything where we used PLD RNG. Unless it was a mule or just there to larceny manafont/TH.

If the THF is actually attacking, without purposely turning to avoid tanking. Like tier 1 Delves, or High tier fights for 109 REMs.

I made no assertions about the viability of using the Ambush trait, only the effects of having it active.

Personally, the only times I'm behind mobs are Dynamis procs and mobs that don't turn (behemoth, khimaira, etc).

Right right, you certainly didn't, it still prompted me to wonder if anyone actually has it merited. You don't, right?


That's pretty much what I was talking about, zero time spent behind the mob, unless it cannot turn. Cause when it can turn, all the melee are capped (including you) so it never stays faced away from you.

Maybe once you finish jerking off to yourself, you'll see the simple fact that at best, you'll only have hate a little more than [1/(number of melees)] percent of the time.

I agree 100% with Valli. Not that anything Montenten said is wrong, but I don't find it at all practical to get real use out of Ambush.

1) Solo, being behind the mob is obviously out.

2) For a multi-DD setup where hate is shifting a lot, the mob is going to be moving a lot and it's pretty hard to stay behind it. Whether it's you or another DD, someone's constantly going to be pulling hate and moving the mob.

3) Playing with a true tank, you can get some benefit from Ambush until you inevitably pull hate. It's simple game mechanics, you're going to hit CE cap (and pretty damn fast, in my experience, not helped by the fact that you're probably TPing in a decent amount of Enmity+ gear to hit cap even quicker). You can't get rid of that enmity until the mob turns and smacks you. That's going to be true until we see enmity system changes (like allowing tanks to surpass the normal CE cap, whether through gear or changes to enmity mechanics).

And yeah, like Valli said - I don't see many people even bringing a THF to group that uses a real tank, e.g the typical PLD+RNG group. It's not even needed for TH, if you have 2-3 Rangers using Bounty Shot on a decent length you're likely gonna reach ~TH7 anyway. So why bring a THF when using another RNG (or maybe a buff slot for COR) will add more damage AND make for a smoother fight enmity-wise. Decoy Shot's a far better tool to plant hate on the tank than the laughable thought that TA every 1min means much of anything, and meleeing is gonna get you killed on THF and have the party out a contributor for 3-5 minutes. Unless you're just a body in a DM v2 run tagging each NM and using Larceny on AATT, THF shouldn't even be in that kind of fight.

All that being said, THF group 2 merits beyond 5/5 Feint kinda suck anyway, so if you wanna go for Ambush merits I guess go ahead? I personally find Aura Steal's absorb effect more useful, so I'll happily stick with my current Aura Steal 4/5 and sorta lame 1/5 Assassin's Charge.

Sort of irrelevant for me anyway though, because I like Qaaxo B better than Plunderer+1 anyway on anything level 120+ for the combination of Acc/PDT-/solid enough DD stats.

Asking your other melees to stand near each other. The vast majority of mobs don't have conals.

What exactly are you fighting in groups where you're on THF?

Perhaps it's partly my use of the job/availabilty of other (better DPS) melee DD jobs too, because I just don't run into those kinds of THF in a group situations very often these days. I end up finding myself using THF more for solo/farming, Salvage, Dyna, etc.

I wouldn't bring it to Delve or Skirmish since TH doesn't help in those events and I'd rather bring one of my stronger DD jobs. I wouldn't bring it to anything with a true tank (like most common Phantom Gem fight setups, or Marjami/Kamihr Delve) for reasons described previously. Maybe Legion is an example of group content where DD-THF could be reasonable and TH helps, but good freaking luck getting all your DD to stand still and face the mob away from you in there.

CP/merit parties? Again, you're not gonna get the group to pay attention to positioning there so you can reasonably stay behind the mob for long.

I guess for some limited BC fights this would be viable? Perhaps Gessho, where NIN or /NIN melees are really nice. Seems pretty rare to me though that you'd regularly even get the chance to take advantage of being behind the mob in today's common events.

Everything.

I bring thf to all sorts of stuff Q_Q

But in that case, how long are you really staying around and meleeing mobs from behind to take advantage of Ambush? Not much, right?


Fair enough, you have no other options. Not saying you can't make THF work, but the vast majority of groups who DO have other options are probably going to prefer another job to THF in basically any of today's common group content.


And you have a ton of other well geared jobs. Do you really think your THF is BETTER for those events than any of your other choices? No harm in bringing it if you feel like it I guess, but I tend to find I make a better contribution on something else: MNK for DD, RNG for ranged strat, COR if we need buffs, NIN or RUN for some tanking, PUP or DNC if I need to be more self-sufficient, WHM on my alt if we need healing, etc...

THF for me is a decent DD that isn't as good as my other choices, and TH doesn't help much in most current group content. It does help a lot in solo/farming stuff, so I use it for that pretty often.

EDIT: And again, not saying THF is bad or that a well played/geared THF is incapable of contributing in any event. If you want to play it and your group's fine with that, great. But specifically for Ambush, even when you are bringing THF are you REALLY behind the mob that much?

Get out of my head Llew

You can stay though, Fate.


And I do make it work. Unless you have to have ranged attacks or multiple damage types, you can bring a THF to anything you can bring any other melee to. How the THF performs as a DD is almost entirely dependent on the player. 98% of players don't perform on the level where they're capable of taking advantage of a job's full potential, like so many people love to talk about on these forums.

This is where llew smirks because he knows I'm talking about him.

And it's not like I don't have other options. My WHM, BRD, RDM and BLM are nearly perfectly geared. BRD is 99/99 and yagrush is on the way (one weekend at a time~).

Again though, the whole reason this conversation started was talking about how often THF can really take advantage of Ambush. I'm perfectly fine accepting that a well played THF can contribute in any event, even if I personally don't use it in a lot of them. But are you behind mobs that much? I guess if you are, cool. Maybe Ambush is useful for you, and that certainly makes Plunderer+1 better.

Seems like a play style thing though. I very rarely find myself meleeing behind a mob when I use my own THF, so Ambush is practically useless to me. I get more out of Aura Steal.

I bring it to stuff where TH or larceny (so most bcs, which we do a lot) is relevant, and Delve 1 sometimes if I'm bored. (Though I think the only delve I've brought thf to is bee, usually I'm mnk if I DD). I don't have any parses saved, so not gonna make any claims. AM3 as well as Rudras changes with Vajra do make thf at least a little decent.

As for better, no, but thfs always been my "main" melee job, so it's fun to play sometimes. I wouldn't bring it if I genuinely thought it'd hurt overall DD to the point where it'd cause stress for the group. Larceny is also pretty helpful for some of our zerg BC strats. Also, sam and rng are really newly leveled for me, and my whm and brd aren't very unique in my LS (we have four Yags, as well as four 99/99 brds and 3 99/3 song brds).

Think I jumped in on a bit of a different tangent. Don't have Ambush merited, never have, doubt I would use it.

Would actually get some pretty decent use out of Ambush in Salvage II, Chariots ToAU NM's can easily be back-tanked even solo.

Most High-Tier fights use a PLD anyway. So should be easy to stand behind. Only one I can think of that wouldn't use it is the Ouryu strat from the front.

Dynamis doesn't matter anyway, ***is so weak in there WS's 1-shot them whether you use SA or not.

SKCNM might be kind of iffy as well, it's not hard to grab hate on those with THF.

Yes, I see you're primarily inquiring about Ambush. Not that I was trying to avoid it, I just didn't care to comment.

If you must know though, I do have it 5/5. If you want me to justify it, that's a whole other post.

Got that beat!



But I've only been playing for a little over 2 months from scratch. So far so good. Shame most of the gear doesn't show up. Nothing too special though.

For a minute I thought this was a good point, but for Salvage II level content, Skadi+1 still easily beats Plunderer+1 even with TA+5% from 5/5 Ambush. And the base Ambush trait itself is essentially useless, since you're surely already capping accuracy without it with any decent gear. So supposing you have Skadi+1, standing at the mob's back is really just useful for solo SA without needing Bully.

Super quick spreadsheet test does seem to support 5/5 Ambush making Plunderer+1 slightly better than Thaumas in that situation though (fighting NM where you can target the back side of an NM while TPing). Even if you call it a sidegrade offensively, Plunderer+1 gets that big defense/evasion boost.

Mayhaps, I think your situations are just different than others. I can personally name quite a few situations where as a THF, I'd be behind the enemy.

*Salvage II, AR, on Khim or Chariots
*Dynamis on proc'd mobs (Which is often)
*Any AA fight sans Taru, maybe taru.
*Delve - DDs have no trouble grouping up on mobs without conals.
*SKCNM20's as well, since you can easily do those on D with a good THF in party, and most of those don't have enemies with conals.
*Ouryu V2 (The entire fight is backtanking...)
*Tenzen V2

Some of these require your DD aren't idiots or asshats and can stand being infront of the mob, though, if you bring SAMs, they want to be in front, not hard at all. These are just the ones I can name off the top of my head that I've been invited too as THF, and have spent a good portion of it behind the enemy.

Now, on some of these you'll eventually pull hate, but you'll be behind it a good portion of the fight if you can use Trick Attack well.

Edit: Guy above me mentions when some things beat out whatever, this should be considered when mentioning Dynamis/Salvage II then.