DRG Guide Where
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DRG guide where
Will 1/5 Stardiver cut it, after the update? It's not much worse (I think it's 2% inferior) than current 4/5, right? Is that viable or should I just demerit it completely and hang up drg? I don't see myself 5/5'ing it again after update, since I put those other 4 points to use on more WSs (seriously I really wanted them to just open up more, not this crazy adjustment).
Well, like we said earlier, even the top geared DRG suffer vs average DD, so not going for 5/5 stardiver is pure suicide.
That's like 60% mod str with alpha correction? I would stick to 5/5 Anyone have a link handy stating what they're doing exactly to the merit WS's?
Iirc they're making it so at 1/5 mod is 65%, with 5% increase for each additional merit.
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Just curious...with the state of GEO now, they can achieve something ridiculous like -30% def down which stacks with dia and angon for like ~60-70% def down on a target in total. That being said, future events might see it such that attack doesn't matter for DDs as it does now. Assuming that's true, and imagining a future where capping pDIF on HNMs is effortless, where would DRG then stand? When things like Berserk are unneeded what then does a Rag DRK have over say a Gungnir DRG? The DRK would have a 2% attack speed boost over a DRG/SAM assuming both are receiving Haste and Marches. The DRG has capped magic haste(43.75% and equip haste (25%) and 10% from hasso putting it at 78%; the DRK is at 80% (cap).
So the hypothetical field is set. Attack doesn't matter, nor does attack speed abilities(since the DRK and DRG for all intents and purposes will be at attack speed cap give or take 1-2%). Resolution is slightly stronger than Stardiver(has a weaker fTP but has 1 more hit) but has that nasty -15% attack penalty(invalidated in this scenary since pDIF is surely capped). Gungnir has 16 higher base DMG than Ragnarok and DRK has slightly more STR. The only thing I see DRK pulling ahead with is Souleater which is once every 6 minutes. That aside, it would seem that if DRG could overcome its low attack, it would at least be on par with a rag drk or war(barring mighty strikes) the only thing outshing the drg would be the crit rate from bloodrage and the rag itself, but as far as WS damage and WS rate, it'd be roughly similar I'd think. This would be where Jumps would come into play. Although, under this theoretical paradigm where attack doesnt matter(meaning Drakesbane ftw), I could see Ryunohige dominating the DD world, as even a Rag drk cannot hold a candle to a Ryuno DRG with capped haste on a mob where pdif would be capped(6-7k+ drakesbanes abound) Ophannus said: » Just curious...with the state of GEO now, they can achieve something ridiculous like -30% def down which stacks with dia and angon for like ~60-70% def down on a target in total. That being said, future events might see it such that attack doesn't matter for DDs as it does now. Assuming that's true, and imagining a future where capping pDIF on HNMs is effortless, where would DRG then stand? When things like Berserk are unneeded what then does a Rag DRK have over say a Gungnir DRG? The DRK would have a 2% attack speed boost over a DRG/SAM assuming both are receiving Haste and Marches. The DRG has capped magic haste(43.75% and equip haste (25%) and 10% from hasso putting it at 78%; the DRK is at 80% (cap). So the hypothetical field is set. Attack doesn't matter, nor does attack speed abilities(since the DRK and DRG for all intents and purposes will be at attack speed cap give or take 1-2%). Resolution is slightly stronger than Stardiver(has a weaker fTP but has 1 more hit) but has that nasty -15% attack penalty(invalidated in this scenary since pDIF is surely capped). Gungnir has 16 higher base DMG than Ragnarok and DRK has slightly more STR. The only thing I see DRK pulling ahead with is Souleater which is once every 6 minutes. That aside, it would seem that if DRG could overcome its low attack, it would at least be on par with a rag drk or war(barring mighty strikes) the only thing outshing the drg would be the crit rate from bloodrage and the rag itself, but as far as WS damage and WS rate, it'd be roughly similar I'd think. This would be where Jumps would come into play. Although, under this theoretical paradigm where attack doesnt matter(meaning Drakesbane ftw), I could see Ryunohige dominating the DD world, as even a Rag drk cannot hold a candle to a Ryuno DRG with capped haste on a mob where pdif would be capped(6-7k+ drakesbanes abound) If things aligned the way you are describing, drg would be in a very nice position. Unless you're fighting bones, piercing attacks usually get the upper hand. On top of that drg gets a lot of nice multi-attack benefits and ja (not to mention multi attacking with ja). Top that off with your wyvern and you'd be in like flint. The only discrepancy I have with your information is something I learned from the DRK side. When capping MA haste and then compensate for gear haste afterward. If attack were not an obstacle though drg's tp garnishment etc would make it a fearsome adversary again. While the Wyvern wouldn't have capped attack speed, it may very well be close to pDIF cap which means it would also be hitting for its 120-160ish range. I don't see why piercing attacks have an upperhand on anything not piercing, unless the mob is weak to piercing like a Harpy or something. Rag DRKs and Rag WARs benefit from significantly higher crit rate(and crit damage) albeit lower DMG on their weapons. WAR has higher DA than DRG, though we do have Jumps at our disposal(but at 80% haste, I think anything other than Soul Jump isn't worth the 2 second JA-Delay. With 78% haste, we swing every 1.75 seconds. That means with the 2 second JA-Delay incurred from Spirit Jump, we could have swung our Polearm 1.13 times. That means that over time, if you use Spirit Jump every time it's up, you'll lose an attack round eventually, and since Spirit Jump gives double the TP as a normal hit, it ends up being a net loss. If they introduce more Spirit Jump TP gear or remove or shorten the JA delay penalty(similar to what they did to Ranged Attacks a few months ago) this could change.
Unfortunately Jumps are more beneficial in low haste situations where you have 4-5 seconds between attack rounds and Spirit Jump=2 attack rounds. When your haste is so high that you swing every 1.75 seconds, Spirit Jump is not worth it anymore since it slows down your swings and two regular attacks usually does more damage than a single critical hit Spirit Jump, assuming capped pDIF. They need to disable the wyvern's breath delay. In zerg fights the wyvern does nothing but spam useless breaths. Then maybe it'll parse more than .3%.
I asked for that on the official forums. Not only would it mean the Wyvern would deal more damage from using only melee swings, it would also mean every 90 seconds we could siphon 150% TP from it with Spirit Link. (I love doing this when on DRG/Mage if I go long enough without needing a Healing Breath; it allows me to self SC ^^) It was a JA pet command proposal called "Muster" that would increase the Wyvern's Attack Speed, Attack and Accuracy at the cost of inhibiting all automatic breaths(would not apply to Restoring Breath or Smiting Breath, only Remove Breaths, Automatic Healing Breaths with a spell trigger, and Automatic Elemental Breaths after a WS).
If DRG's enmity shedding abilities start to matter a bit more, that'll certainly be a move in the right direction.
I thought about that today, since they nerfed enmity incurred from melee damage, high jump and the fixed enmity spirit/soul jumps aren't as useful anymore(for the purpose of generating less hate). I can't think of any applicable situations for shedding hate on DRG anymore, espcially because almost any melee that we'd be paired with makes more hate from their various JA buffs(of which DRG only gets from /SAM). Low mannign with a WAR or DRK means DRG basically never gets hate. Since melee barely makes hate anymore and DRK and WAR have VE JAs like Last Resort/Blood Rage/Warcry(and DRG has none really), we pretty much natively don't draw hate, nor could we even pull hate if we tried from a mage dropping cure IV's anyway, since damage is so inefficient at pulling hate. I tried tanking Odin the other night when our DRK went down, and even though my WS damage was quite high compared to Ukko/Reso(even with full dispels every few min), I could not hold hate from a WHM casting Cure IV and I had no high enmity JAs to help anyway.
Needless to say DRG does not need its hate shedding abilities anymore. Ophannus said: » (but at 80% haste, I think anything other than Soul Jump isn't worth the 2 second JA-Delay. With 78% haste, we swing every 1.75 seconds. That means with the 2 second JA-Delay incurred from Spirit Jump, we could have swung our Polearm 1.13 times. That means that over time, if you use Spirit Jump every time it's up, you'll lose an attack round eventually, and since Spirit Jump gives double the TP as a normal hit, it ends up being a net loss. If you jump and instantly ws, doesn't it cut a bit off of that delay? I thought the hard 2 sec delay couldn't stack on multiple uses? So if you spirit, soul -> ws you'd get the ws's 2 sec delay wait but the only delay added by spirit and soul is the time it takes for you to get your next ja/ws off. While there is some truth to that, it also doesn't take into account TP overflow which can be seen as a loss of DoT as well. I think either Motenten or Sylow mentioned this a while back and still said it would be a net loss due to JA delay.
Ophannus said: » While the Wyvern wouldn't have capped attack speed, it may very well be close to pDIF cap which means it would also be hitting for its 120-160ish range. I don't see why piercing attacks have an upperhand on anything not piercing, unless the mob is weak to piercing like a Harpy or something. Rag DRKs and Rag WARs benefit from significantly higher crit rate(and crit damage) albeit lower DMG on their weapons. WAR has higher DA than DRG, though we do have Jumps at our disposal(but at 80% haste, I think anything other than Soul Jump isn't worth the 2 second JA-Delay. With 78% haste, we swing every 1.75 seconds. That means with the 2 second JA-Delay incurred from Spirit Jump, we could have swung our Polearm 1.13 times. That means that over time, if you use Spirit Jump every time it's up, you'll lose an attack round eventually, and since Spirit Jump gives double the TP as a normal hit, it ends up being a net loss. If they introduce more Spirit Jump TP gear or remove or shorten the JA delay penalty(similar to what they did to Ranged Attacks a few months ago) this could change. Unfortunately Jumps are more beneficial in low haste situations where you have 4-5 seconds between attack rounds and Spirit Jump=2 attack rounds. When your haste is so high that you swing every 1.75 seconds, Spirit Jump is not worth it anymore since it slows down your swings and two regular attacks usually does more damage than a single critical hit Spirit Jump, assuming capped pDIF. The multi-attack benefit that I was shooting for was in reference to gear options and off the top of my head from 80 cap. You should be able to empathy marches onto your wyvern unless you're sitting on those deep breathing merits still for some reason. I felt I was giving support to what you were trying to imply, but I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. The piercing comment was just that last I remembered a larger part of the population was weak to piercing over slashing. /shrug. Ragnarok.Ashman said: » Ophannus said: » While the Wyvern wouldn't have capped attack speed, it may very well be close to pDIF cap which means it would also be hitting for its 120-160ish range. I don't see why piercing attacks have an upperhand on anything not piercing, unless the mob is weak to piercing like a Harpy or something. Rag DRKs and Rag WARs benefit from significantly higher crit rate(and crit damage) albeit lower DMG on their weapons. WAR has higher DA than DRG, though we do have Jumps at our disposal(but at 80% haste, I think anything other than Soul Jump isn't worth the 2 second JA-Delay. With 78% haste, we swing every 1.75 seconds. That means with the 2 second JA-Delay incurred from Spirit Jump, we could have swung our Polearm 1.13 times. That means that over time, if you use Spirit Jump every time it's up, you'll lose an attack round eventually, and since Spirit Jump gives double the TP as a normal hit, it ends up being a net loss. If they introduce more Spirit Jump TP gear or remove or shorten the JA delay penalty(similar to what they did to Ranged Attacks a few months ago) this could change. Unfortunately Jumps are more beneficial in low haste situations where you have 4-5 seconds between attack rounds and Spirit Jump=2 attack rounds. When your haste is so high that you swing every 1.75 seconds, Spirit Jump is not worth it anymore since it slows down your swings and two regular attacks usually does more damage than a single critical hit Spirit Jump, assuming capped pDIF. The multi-attack benefit that I was shooting for was in reference to gear options and off the top of my head from 80 cap. You should be able to empathy marches onto your wyvern unless you're sitting on those deep breathing merits still for some reason. I felt I was giving support to what you were trying to imply, but I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. The piercing comment was just that last I remembered a larger part of the population was weak to piercing over slashing. /shrug. Bolded bit makes me sad, as I used to love Deep breathing and I'm just now thinking, perhaps it's time to go :(
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I'm struggling with the logic that spirit jump isn't worth more than 1.13 regular attacks, when it gives double TP. Even if spirit jump did half the damage of a regular hit, i'd think you'd take it for the extra WS frequency. Am I missing something or did you derp?
Under 80% haste, you swing every 1.75 seconds. Spirit Jump gives 2x the TP but also has a delay of 2 seconds wherein you can't swing your weapon. There's a 13% delay difference between 1.75 seconds and 2 seconds, so attacking rather than using a Jump would be 13% faster. Actually going over the math again I think they do come about even but not by much, forgot stuff like STP on Jumps and AF3+2 feet.
Ophannus said: » Just curious...with the state of GEO now, they can achieve something ridiculous like -30% def down which stacks with dia and angon for like ~60-70% def down on a target in total. That being said, future events might see it such that attack doesn't matter for DDs as it does now. Assuming that's true, and imagining a future where capping pDIF on HNMs is effortless, where would DRG then stand? When things like Berserk are unneeded what then does a Rag DRK have over say a Gungnir DRG? The DRK would have a 2% attack speed boost over a DRG/SAM assuming both are receiving Haste and Marches. The DRG has capped magic haste(43.75% and equip haste (25%) and 10% from hasso putting it at 78%; the DRK is at 80% (cap). So the hypothetical field is set. Attack doesn't matter, nor does attack speed abilities(since the DRK and DRG for all intents and purposes will be at attack speed cap give or take 1-2%). Resolution is slightly stronger than Stardiver(has a weaker fTP but has 1 more hit) but has that nasty -15% attack penalty(invalidated in this scenary since pDIF is surely capped). Gungnir has 16 higher base DMG than Ragnarok and DRK has slightly more STR. The only thing I see DRK pulling ahead with is Souleater which is once every 6 minutes. That aside, it would seem that if DRG could overcome its low attack, it would at least be on par with a rag drk or war(barring mighty strikes) the only thing outshing the drg would be the crit rate from bloodrage and the rag itself, but as far as WS damage and WS rate, it'd be roughly similar I'd think. This would be where Jumps would come into play. Although, under this theoretical paradigm where attack doesnt matter(meaning Drakesbane ftw), I could see Ryunohige dominating the DD world, as even a Rag drk cannot hold a candle to a Ryuno DRG with capped haste on a mob where pdif would be capped(6-7k+ drakesbanes abound) tl;dr -- It generally isn't practical to go to great lengths to put one particular job with gugnir on par with other jobs that could have achieved the same result in a more simple manner. Apply this to a real scenario. As you add buffs, there is going to be some point where all of the "normal" DD (Ragnarok, Kogarasumaru, Liberator, Ukon, etc.) are going to be capped on attack for their weapon skills, and the only person that will be benefiting from any further attack buffs, or defense debuffs, will be the gugnir dragoon you described above. It is impractical to continue buffing just for one person, when you could instead replace that gugnir with one of the aforementioned weapons, in addition to replacing whatever job you added to achieve those additional attack buffs or defense debuffs (Geo, Rdm for Dia III, etc.) Sure, adding the drg adds angon as well -- but that debuff isn't up fulltime, and yet again, would likely only be adding any benefit to the dragoon anyway if you already have a Geo/Dia/Etc. I understand why people try to do things like this -- because they love a certain job, with a certain weapon, and want it to feel relevant, but at the end of the day if you're shooting for efficiency (which ends up mattering quite a bit in a game where the number of people you bring to any given event directly relates to how much loot each person will get/etc.), this will likely never be the way to go. The current trend leans more towards spike damage than DoT. Alot of the time, people are talking about averages over extended periods of time (I believe Pchan uses a model that extends over an unlimited timeframe?..).
However, most fights are rapid zergs, with barely enough time to get 3 spirit jumps off. If you manage to spirit jump 7 times over the course of 1 fight, you lose 1 round of attacks, but gain an effective 7 attacks from extra TP. That's also not counting multi hit jumps granting you an instant WS. Edit: Also, the whole "Make a macro that does this, that is your guide" could be applied to near every job in the game. WAR: /ws "Ukko's Fury" <t> (Hit this when you have 100+TP, changespell to resolution if you have Rag equipped... Guide done). DRK /ws "Resolution" <t> (Hit this when you have 100+TP, changespell to Cata if you have Apoc equipped... Guide done). Lets not pretend the other DD jobs are more complicated to play because they perform better. You are still just mashing a button (that you could automate with spellcast/autoexec anyway). Well what I was driving at is not that a relic DRG would be one of the best DD but it would at least be on par with any other non- mythic DD say Ukon WAR or Rag DRK. Mythics are in their own broken *** category so that's a discussion for another day. Relics are the next best thing since they're cheap as hell and less annoying to make so for all intents and purposes for this argument lets say that relic/Emp DDs are 'standard' and mythic DDs are a luxary. In that kind of case, assuming attack speed and attack are capped, a DRG would really be no worse off than say an Ukon WAR or a Rag DRK. As of currently there are exchelons of difference in the damage between DRK&WAR and DRG, but what I was insinuating is that if you remove att and haste from the equation(maximizing it for all jobs and leveling the playing field) there wouldn't be as much of a difference. Not trying to make DRG the end all be all DD, but it would be nice if there was a WAY smaller gap between DDs(which right now favors those with high att and haste) so that the choice of DD doesn't come down to which does more damage, but instead becomes a matter of personal preference or availability. So instead of omg we NEED Drks and Wars to win this fight, DDs could come whatever they have geared and have FUN playing instead of having 1 or 2 DD classes be utterly and clearly better than the rest.
Blurring the differences in performance between DDs makes the game more enjoyable and less about jobs and more about the gear and player skill. It would be nice if the jobs within each category were more balanced such that it wouldn't matter which job you came to do which task. Certain jobs would lean towards certain roles but if you can't get one of THOSE jobs, another can do it without much difference in performance. The damage difference between a DRG and a DRK shouldn't have to be tens of thousands of damage, but maybe give or take 1-2 thousand. If you need a tank, any of RUN/PLD/NIN should be able to do the job, though each one does it using their own job's tricks/spells/gimmicks w/e. The fact that some jobs are the best at their archetype(Aegis PLD= best tank, SAM DRK and WAR=best DD, WHM=best healer, COR and BRD= best buffers) makes pretty much every job inbetween useless except for a few gimmicks where you need perfect defense or something. What about RDM? Best enfee... Wait, I mean best enhan... Wait. Best Teleport-Xer. ><
Most melees are pretty straight forward, the only semi tricky ones could be MNK with Impetus UP/Impetus DOWN sets and RNG with their various pre-shot stuff. 2handers can get a bit complicated with mythics due to various AM-UP/AM-Down sets as well. None of these are as complex as say BLU, PUP or DNC though.
Ophannus said: » ...what I was insinuating is that if you remove att and haste from the equation(maximizing it for all jobs and leveling the playing field) there wouldn't be as much of a difference... There is no way I can say this without it coming off a bit caustic -- but yeah, this scenario removes two of the most important offensive stats from the equation; of course they are all going to seem closer in dps. Ophannus said: » ...Not trying to make DRG the end all be all DD, but it would be nice if there was a WAY smaller gap between DDs(which right now favors those with high att and haste) so that the choice of DD doesn't come down to which does more damage, but instead becomes a matter of personal preference or availability. So instead of omg we NEED Drks and Wars to win this fight, DDs could come whatever they have geared and have FUN... Connecting this to the point above -- what you are suggesting is really just going to blur all of the DD into one amorphous class, with no (or very few) unique properties that make one job stand out over another, and at the end of the day making it somewhat pointless to even have different jobs. If all of the DD jobs are performing equally to one another, I cannot imagine it being particularly more "FUN" to play one of them over another. Ophannus said: » Blurring the differences in performance between DDs makes the game more enjoyable and less about jobs and more about the gear and player skill. I would argue the opposite, and can't help but think that many others would as well - filling a game with different jobs/weapons/classes really forces the playerbase to hunker down and do some decent testing to determine which jobs best fill the role of certain scenarios. Many intelligent people contribute that information on public forums, and we end up with the conclusions of jobs like mythic sam, and the like, being the best investment of your time and money "if you want to do damage." It requires quite a bit more skill in my opinion to rationalize and plan out decisions such as, "if I want to do the best damage, I need to level this job and make this weapon, and get this gear", than it does to make every DD into a vanilla class where they all end up producing the same dps. Giving each job its own unique characteristics is really the heart of what drives much of this game in my opinion. You just simply have to be capable of accepting that certain jobs will always be best at accomplishing a certain task. I am sure Drks would like to have a bird flying around them that can Cure V them every 60 seconds, in the same way you describe your wishes for gugnir to be on par with other more popular weapons for pure dps purposes. If you start to meld all of the DD jobs together in the way you are suggesting, it seems like you would end up likely taking away some of the aspects of dragoon that initially attracted you to the job in the first place as well. I feel that the unique jobs, with all of their individual strengths and weaknesses are really too key to the core structure of this game to even fathom removing those differences. I love the fact that DRG shares a lot of gear with my SAM and DRK. Well, SAM is my favorite so it's more like DRG and DRK share gear with my SAM, lol. It's not that difficult for me to gear up DRG and play it every now and again when swinging a GK and GS gets boring.
Every time that I think of DRG I think of the times that I would pick up random ones back at 75 cap for ISNM. Pop out the clone Puks and the 2 DRGs would Super Jump. Of course the Puks ran after the mages. Good times. Man I love Super Jump though. I have my exiled up whenever I do ADL or Odin to Super Jump whenever the log sees Tera Slash/Oblivion Mantle/Meteor/Zantetsuken. A few months ago we were wiping to a triple clone ADL, I SJ'd their triple Tera Slash which killed pretty much all the DDs, came down and took one of the clones from 3% to 0 with my WS. Now sometimes ppl in my LS that know I have a bot for SJing dangerous TP moves try to *** with me by "/t Ophannus Tera Slash" to me which makes me SJ immediately :/
Also whomever makes the DRG guide should call it:
Heavenward! - A DRG Guide. YouTube Video Placeholder heav·en·ward (hvn-wrd) adv. & adj. Towards or to the direction of heaven; or to the skies. OR Real men. A DRG's guide. (Watch at 1:14) YouTube Video Placeholder Carbuncle.Shadowreapper said: » One thing to take into consideration, that wasn't true months ago, is the ability the shed hate as drg. Back in abyssea time, and mainy prior to the defense/dmg taken nerf, every DD could call himself a tank basicly. Toss some pdt gear on, and voila, you're a tank. Now with the nerf, (and I see that from things like odin v2), you can't tank like you used to do before. One ws from adds (still odin) could rape you, and that's usually what happens. The "stronger" DD gets hate, and end up dieing with a critical+ws combo. Drg can still go all out, but with a timed super jump/high jump, you can shed hate, and still pull out decent dmg. I feel like you don't even do Odin or have really bad support Cause a DD (SAM,DRK,WAR,DRG,etc.) should have no problem tanking Odin or adds with PDT/Hybrid sets. Cure IV is basically a huge no-no now. I've seen Cure IVs rip hate off a well buffed DRK easily now. Basically cure V or bust. It seems like DD need to rely more on VE/CE producing spells/abilities now like LR/SE/Provoke/Stun than simply just damage to keep hate. A SAM will keep hate for a few seconds after his WS, then lose it to a mage casting Haste/Stoneskin now. This should change after the update this month though but I remember hate on Odin v2 being extremely chaotic, especially with DDs losing buffs to dispel every minute or so.
Siren.Ihm said: » Tbh I never had a problem holding my own on DRG, even before Mythic... They're not as bad as people claim, ok, they're no bandwagonroks or anything but a non-mythic drg can still do very well. Mythic on the otherhand is a completely different thing, I out parse people with no problem. No job is. People are just way too obsessed with parsing and being A#1. That's why I've reclined myself to just be mid-tier the rest of my career with this game, because I'd rather enjoy it than participate in the *** measuring contest. >_> |
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