Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0

Just finished Kenkonken last night and have been working on trials. In the meantime I'd like to get my gearswap lua up to date and was wondering if anyone had some current sets that include the new alluvion skirmish gear? I realize that there could endless possibilities when considering sets for master tp, pet tp, ranged pet, melee pet, magic pet ect... Any help would be appreciated

I was wondering if there a skill up food for pets?

Quick martial arts/h2h delay reduction questions:

1) What's the MA delay reduction amount on 119 Kenkonken? I know BG says the 75-99 versions increase in tiers up to delay-50 at 99, but nothing on BG about the 119s.

2) How much MA do you need to cap H2H delay reduction in some common buff scenarios (e.g. capped magic haste+marches, haste II only, etc.)? Trying to figure out gear selection and whether I should toss more Refractive Stones at a cape to beat my existing MA 18 augment.

Can't test this stuff myself quite yet, but I'm getting ready... about a month or so to go for my Kenkonken to be done!

There is no increase in delay reduction from 99 -> 119. They have the same tier of Martial Arts.

(480 Base Delay + 49 Weapon Delay)*.2 Delay cap = 105.8 Minimum Delay


Max Haste:
(480 Base Delay + 49 Weapon Delay - 210 Martial Arts Delay)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 448 Magic Haste)÷1024=

(319)x(320)÷1024= 99.69
Keep in mind this is only using capped magic haste.
So if you are getting capped magic haste, you're over capped using only Kenkonken.

Haste II:
(319)x(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 307 Magic Haste)÷1024=

(319)x(461)÷1024= 143.61

40 Delay from cap

From here on out I will not show the entire delay equation but rather an equation for determining the amount of MA delay reduction to hit cap.

(105.8 Minimum Delay x 1024)÷461 Haste(Magic+Gear) = 235 Delay(before haste)

319 Orignal Delay - 235 Delay Needed = 84 MA Delay Reduction

~84 MA Reduction to cap.

Haste II + Victory March:
(365) Haste

(105.8 x 1024)÷365 = 296.82

319 - 296.82 = 22.18

~22 MA

Keep in mind that would be without a March instrument. Each tier of March should shave off ~1-2 MA from this.


Edit: All of these values are assuming the use of Kenkonken.

Edit3 Fixed now.

If more is wanted, let me know and I'll get it done sometime tomorrow. Though given just these two it shouldn't be too hard to assume you need MA unless you're either capped magically or relatively close(I think ~41% haste would be the point, I'll find the exact amount later)

Last I knew the new skirmish weapon was not in the guide at all and still does not appear to be.

As for its usefulness, when it was first released it was completely worthless due to have far too much delay for minimal damage compared to all other options.

That said, with the new Dmg+ augments added from Yorcia it may have raised in the rankings but i have yet to take the time to check.

Acc/att+20, DMG+, and I would wager QA+2 on it would make it competitive.

Only need +11 dmg or so with +3 DA/13 acc to beat Tinh path B. Can't get QA and DMG+ on the same h2h since both are Dusk. Have +24 dmg on mine, and it beats Tinh by quite a bit

For Empy reforge, is body the best (only?) piece to 119? It seems like a pretty nice piece for a max accuracy set, although with Taeon body I'm not so sure of its overall value. Same with legs, they are a decent accuracy piece but Taeon with good augments is better.

So, playing around with the spreadsheet and some sets, I came up with the following:

TP/General:
ItemSet 334380

Taeon with Acc/Atk, STR/DEX, and TA.

TP High Accuracy:
ItemSet 334381

Stringing Pummel:
ItemSet 334382
Kemas beat Brutal for SP with KKK/AM3.

I'm trying to get my puppetmaster current and start on KKK, so any help would be appreciated. My sets are similar to the OP, but include Vagary and Empy reforged gear.

For a non-KKK PUP, Empy+1 legs are pretty nice for being the best Martial Arts delay reduction piece in the game (-11 delay) outside of KKK itself (-50) or an augmented Dispersal Mantle (up to 20 max). High STR too, so a very nice WS option if you don't have a good STR aug on Taeon legs.

For KKK PUP, they're comparatively less valuable since with capped gear & magical haste you need only -12 delay to reach maximum delay reduction, which you may already be able to hit with Dispersal Mantle. But it's still a nice option to more or less cap delay with one piece if getting marches/haste. Or if not getting marches/haste, they're pretty darn good (though depending on snow/dusk augs may not beat a good Taeon TA+2%). WS is same as above.

Speaking of Dispersal, that's the one missing piece I'd really take issue with in your "ideal" TP set. Especially for anything that "matters", I'd err on the side of excellent acc and no DT+10% from Rancorous. Augments just make Dispersal better with the best MA stat of any armor in the entire game, and pet TP bonus can be interesting if you're using VE/SS frames. Maybe play around with Rancorous for a crit focused build (which can be intriguing), but in that case you may want also to look at pairing with stuff like Nefarious Collar +1 and Taeon with crit dmg+ augments.

What are the augments on the Moonshade earring?

TP Bonus and Acc+4. TP Bonus being the important one; even if you went with something else for the second aug (say, RAtk or RAcc if you play Ranger), TP Bonus alone makes Moonshade best in slot for WS.

Thanks for your input. I got a Martial Arts +20/STR+5/DEX+2 Dispersal Mantle over the weekend. I'll swap that into my lower-acc TP set.

I get Taeon with +crit dmg augments as being pretty killer for Stringing Pummel. Could do ACC/ATK, Crit Rate, and Crit damage maybe?

Speaking of Martial Arts, anybody found an use for Count Cuffs in some sets?

Not really, unless for some terrible reason you don't feel the need to get TA+2% Taeon Gloves.

I don't really see a scenario where they win over TA+2% Taeon with any halfway decent Snow/Dusk augs. For STR/DEX, Count's and Taeon are nearly the same (Count's have 1 more STR, Taeon have 1 more DEX), so you're really comparing MA+5/Atk+30 to whatever augs you have on Taeon.

Best conceivable situation for Count's is low level fodder where you don't care about the lack of Acc and aren't delay capped so can take advantage of the MA-5.
- KKK PUP won't likely need it to cap delay with marches from trusts or player BRD
- Verethragna PUP needs a little more help to cap but still can do it without Count's (say, /DNC or trust DNC Samba and either of (a) Cirque necklace, (b) JSE back with MA aug, or (c) Karagoz legs
- On pre-Adoulin content you may be Atk-capped anyway, so Count's Atk+30 is no huge benefit and you're really looking JUST at the MA+5.

So since Taeon wins easily in most cases and is never worse than a sidegrade to Count's (even in the most ideal conditions, MA+5 isn't going to be a big improvement over TA+2%), I don't really see why to even bother wasting the inventory to keep Count's around.

Yeah of course I meant aside from Taeon.
Taeon are a pretty obvious answer to everything, but leaving Taeon aside for a second?

I use Count's Cuffs in Dynamis/Salvage and so don't have Marches.

Taeon should still win even in situations where the MA from Count's Cuffs adds something.

I plugged some stuff into a spreadsheet, and even Taeon with ONLY Leaf augments (TA+2% as the only aug) was slightly ahead of Count's Cuff's, basically sidegrade. Add a Dusk augment (i.e. STR or Crit dmg) and it's not really close. Snow is pretty much irrelevant for Dynamis level mobs, as the Acc and Atk won't matter.

Count's are basically placeholders. There's not a single situation I can think of where they will beat a pair of Taeon gloves with TA+2%.


But... why? There's really no excuse not to be trying for TA+2% Taeon, and the Leaf stones for the TA augment slot are the cheapest type of stones (between Leaf/Snow/Dusk). Max augment isn't even very hard to get with NQ Leaf stones, since the range is so small. I got most of my TA+2% with Leafslit+1 stones.

I get that people might need a little time to do some skirmish and get the gear, so if you're using something else to hold you over that's reasonable. But Taeon stuff should absolutely be a priority if you care at all about "what's good gear" for any light DD melee.


EDIT: Also went back and looked at Karagoz+1 legs, and pretty much the same story there from the master perspective. While it's a big chunk of MA on one piece, you're sacrificing TA+4% from Taeon (2% base, 2% augment) and the MA Delay-11 doesn't overcome the TA loss. However, Karagoz do give Automaton Skill +23, so could be useful in situations where you want a DD puppet to fight alongside you on difficult targets. Taeon clearly win if you're using a WHM/RDM puppet though, or if you're fighting fodder level stuff where the puppet skill doesn't help damage (i.e. pet is already acc/atk capped).

Capuchin it doesn't make sense to take into account Taeon if someone says "except Taeon" :x
We already know Taeon are the winners lol
I asked ASIDE Taeon ;)

While there is an understanding that it was asked to set Taeon aside from the comparison, it's a hard thing to do given the pieces are not only incredibly powerful, but also quite easy to obtain.

In fact I'd consider the set far easier to obtain and augment, even for a newer player, than it is to attempt to reforge armor to 119. Meaning if a piece is inferior, it's hard to justify putting it into a comparison while leaving out the easier to obtain and better option.

Obviously this applies to Vagary items such as the cuffs as well since it's the newest "hard" content.

Yes, Spathaian explained my reasoning well.

But just to go back and ignore Taeon, Count's STILL aren't anything particularly special. They're in a tight cluster of sidegrades along with the below (roughly in order but different targets/buffs could change things, and in any case no more than a ~2dps range between all of them):
- Otronif +1 (either DA+2 or Crit+2)
- Karagoz+1 (note this considers only the master, so obviously Karagoz get some additional benefit if using a DD puppet)
- Count's Cuffs (assuming you're not delay capped before the MA+5, if you already capped they drop below this pack)
- Nomkahpah Mittens +1

In any case, I know I sound like a broken record but Taeon smashes them all and you should get those. There's no point in putting a lot of thought into ranking stuff that's obviously inferior to an easily obtained item.

To put it nicely, Count's are a decent option to hold you over until you get better augmented Taeon. To put it less nicely, Count's are idiot bait for people who want to use gear from new events to show off.


Also going back to this comment... crit dmg+ augment is pretty solid for PUP in general, not just for Stringing Pummel. Even for TP, I get STR+10 coming out barely higher than Crit DMG+3% in various spreadsheet scenarios, but we're talking ~1dps difference so basically a sidegrade. So for dusk slot, if you get a good crit dmg+ augment you might just want to hang onto it. Other jobs may take more advantage of STR though, so that's a consideration. But for PUP it's basically just as good as max STR.

Personally my TA+2% Taeon set has 3/5 pieces with Crit dmg+3% aug, and I'm perfectly fine keeping that with dusk prices as they are (though maybe I'd play around more if prices drop - like if we got Alluvion Skirmish phase 3 in ORK with dusk as the common stone drop).

For Pummel, Crit Rate does seem to be ideal for leaf slot, but it's close enough that I'm not going to be bothered to make a separate WS set just for crit WS (I already have two full Taeon sets for TA and DW, and if I cared enough to make an automaton-focused set that would probably be third).

Yes guys, you both sound like broken records :P
So I went ahead and tested it myself on the spreadsheet, and these are my results.

TP
Count's Cuffs are better than Nilas and that Otronif+1 (both DA+2 and Crit+2).
Difference isn't huge, but it's there. Need to make sure you're still at capped haste though, given how Count's Cuffs only give 3%. (in one of my test setups Count's made me fall under that)


WS
Oddly enough on Victory Smite and Stringing Pummel, and this was very unexpected, Count's Cuffs are better than obvious Nilas but also Crit+2 Otronif+1. I didn't expect this. Difference is very small though.
For Raging Fists instead, nont surprisingly, Count's Cuffs come ahead and they produce a pretty big difference, bigger than I expected.


Final Opinion
Count's Cuffs are mostly a sidegrade, but they're not as bad as they look at first glance.
It's the only hand option with so much attack that PUP can get access to. Given how PUP noticeably doesn't have as many +att options as many other jobs, this is probably the reason why Count's Cuffs give better results than I expected (granted that they're nothing spectacular).
Where they shine is for Raging Fists for the obvious attack reasons.
So in the end, unless you're attack capped, Count's Cuffs are gonna be a decent alternative to many other options, and not the ***
I would never dare to suggest people to actually hunt for Count's Cuffs, that would be pretty dumb.
But if you already have them, they might be better than other options currently available for you.
(of course, ruling out the obvious Taeon which would be the winner anywhere regardless)
Taeon are likely not going to win on Raging Fists btw. For Taeon to be better than Cuffs on Raging Fists they require strange augments that you're unlikely to put on Taeon Gloves (att/acc+20, TA+2 and either STR+10 or STR/DEX+7)


tl;dr

Count's Cuffs are a decent TP option compared to others, why is that?
When not attack capped, +30 is a big difference compared to all non-Taeon options. Also when you're haste capped (gear+magic cap) you're likely not going to reach the attack delay reduction cap without a form of job haste, which means that those +5Martial arts are going to make a small positive difference.

Count's Cuffs are a decent option for Vsmite/Spummel and an exellent option for Raging Fists, why?
Again, it's because PUP doesn't have a lot of very good +att sources, which means +30 gives surprising results even when you don't expect them (Vsmite/Spummel). For Raging Fists it's pretty obvious instead given how much that WS relies on +Attack.

Nomkahpa+1 are better for VS/SP, and fairly cheap these days. 4 more STR and DA+3% makes up for the lower attack.


OK, but when are you using Raging Fists on PUP?


Um... those aren't strange augments at all, those are pretty standard goal augments for every melee job that uses the gloves. And again, why are you using Raging Fists? Stringing Pummel all day erryday.


Note the major exception of Kenkonken, which makes it pretty easy to reach cap thanks to the low base delay and MA-50. But yeah, for any other weapon you're probably not hitting maximum delay reduction without Haste Samba.

Yep, they are slightly better, but they cost gil! Count's are free.

In the same situations where you'd use it on MNK.
It's the highest damage potential WS of h2h, just need a lot of att and a certain TP threshold.
For all those situations, granted they're not many but not that rare either, Raging Fists is gonna be better than Vsmite and Spummel but we already knew that.
I guess maybe it's different for KKK owners though, with the 30% increse on Spummel.

I was talking about the last part of course. The "STR+10 or STR/DEX+7" one. I normally see WS Taeon items augmented with either WS damage or Crit Damage in the Dusk slot.
Don't think I've ever seen someone augmenting STR/DEX+7 on purpose.
As a matter of fact it would lose to other options for all other WS I can think of except of Raging Fists.
So yeah, it would be a augmentation specific for a single WS we don't use that often, so yeah "strange" is the right word imho, is it not?


^ this, minus "probably", it's totally like that.
Altough -5 is a very small difference, but I notice it counts more the closer you get to the attack delay cap.
Which is not surprising, it's the same way DualWield and Haste work.

For MNK Raging Fists has some situational use like you said. But MNK doesn't have Stringing Pummel. KKK or not, PUP is better off using Pummel and not holding to 3000tp for Raging Fists.


You don't even have to make a "WS Taeon" item, because STR+10 or STR/DEX+7 is what most people want to put on their TP hands anyway, along with TA+2% and Acc/Atk+. That's why I said it would not be a "strange" item to have in the least. There are like 8-10 jobs with those specific augments as the top priority goal set...

Stop trying to justify Count's Cuffs (I see you're also doing this in the MNK forum). They suck. The only legitimate rationalization you came up with is that they're pretty good for PUP Raging Fists, which you shouldn't be using anyway. They're a placeholder until you have TA+2% Taeon, then they're inventory -1.

I think it's the same for MNK, while Raging Fists is awesome, doing multiple WSs will be more beneficial than waiting 2000+ for Raging.
But sometimes you're ending with additional TP against your will.
Either you accidentally forgot to WS, you've been amnesiad, you stored TP before a fight starts, someone uses Shikikoyo on you, you get a temporary effect that gives you 3000 TP... etc etc.
Situations like this, and they do happen for PUP as well.
PUP also has the Tactical Switch thing. Sometimes you get more than 2000 and that's another situation where Raging will outperform Stringing (without KKK at least) and Vsmite.

As for Vsmite vs Spummel, I tend to prefer Spummel but I do occasionally use Vsmite (Level3 SC properties, Vsmite>Vsmite = Light etc)



Except they don't? For PUP at least.
There's a lot of shades between "BiS" and "suck". Count's cuffs fit exactely somewhere in between.
For MNK yeah, they suck, plenty of better/identical options.
For PUP they're a decent option for non-taeon users.
They do not "suck" at all.