FFXIV And The MMO Blues~

People like to claim 14 battle rotations are basic... then you turn on the parser and have them fight something harder than Acheron. Difficulty in the game doesn't come from rotation alone (although monk can feel like it) but from optimizing that rotation and cooldowns within the mechanics of the fight.

Years later and this still makes me laugh lol. What game was it that you played that gave you that sense of satisfaction/accomplishment cause I have yet to play one like that. Not defending 14 or anything cause the endgame content is stale as ***atm yes but in every MMO I played (FF XI included) leveling was always something you wanna get over with ASAP so you can jump into the next grind in endgame that isn't quite as monotonous and actually provides some sort of (if even just a little) challenge.

Reminds me of that idiotic notion people used to pass around back when I still used to play XI about how grinding xp the "old way" somehow made you better at your job. As if killing 10,000 colibris gave you some sort of hard earned experience that you would have otherwise never have been able to learn had you paid to abyssea burn your job to 99 and then taken a week to cap your skills and read up and research the job. Gimme a break >.>

Getting 75 was actually a pretty big deal if only because it took *** forever. I think 14 took it to the opposite extreme though where leveling is just a formality, which is a shame because there's this extensively beautiful world to experience as a lowbie and all this sub-50 gear to wear that goes to waste.

Have not played 14 in like, forever, (perhaps things have changed), but when I did, the jobs were pretty balanced (Some were quite generic though; wtf is up with those little smns?). Iirc, there were no odd man out jobs. I am interested to see how XIV will handle a bst or pup esque job if it were ever released. XI has done so much wrong with pet jobs; it is evident by the raging pet threads on the official forums and the devs actual acknowledgement of the issue.

I got pretty damn frustrated with the whole "dodging on my screen but still getting smashed BS" , but after playing complete turds rift and Tera, I've come back to appreciate 14 for the fine tuned, and beautiful game it is.

Lol that used to tick me off so bad I eventually just upgraded my internet. That coupled with how they fine tuned the movement detection whilst in dungeons made it a non issue now except when they are having issues with the server itself. With how punishingly unforgiving some of the battles are like the titan/leviathan extremes (where one *** up and you can potentially be permanently taken out of the fight) you don't need lag adding to the already inherent chance of failure due to human error.

Anyway I do enjoy the game for the most part but just find that there isn't very much to do atm. Basically work on the novus, do coil once or twice a week depending on peoples schedules, and cap soldiery every week. The old extremes (garuda/titan/ifrit) have been rendered pretty obsolete now (unless u want the mounts I guess) since they introduced lvl 95 weapons in levi extreme (which after 2.3 wont require ifrit clear to unlock), can spam turn 5 now for those lvl 95 weapons, and unlocked myth cap to easily zenith any relic and potentially take those to ilvl 100 or higher. So atm you spam levi/mog extreme to get what you need from them but that's hardly gonna take you 3 months to cap out on (which is the space between major updates).

Only other things left to spam with no restriction are the first 5 turns of coil, the hard mode trials, and CT but if you've been playing the game since launch you have long since capped out on those things (not to mention ultima, mog hard mode and CT drops are completely obsolete atm anyway except for glamour purposes). CT will at least be useful again next update but they put that raid in a weird situation of it only being relevant every other update. Can also craft (which I've been doing out of sheer boredom) but the crafts in the game ultimately don't really amount to much.

They also keep adding dungeons which I have mixed feelings about since people will just try them out once and then go back to spamming the most time efficient one of the bunch. I do think that variety is always nice and all but if it comes at the expense of developing some new type of raid I'd rather they just stop pushing those out and work on something new. Would also be cool if they added more light party (4 ppl) content that gave worthwhile items while still being challenging (if anything they should make it even harder than 8 man content since fewer ppl means fewer chances for individual mistakes). Not that there is anything wrong with 8 man content (and its for the most part fine for stuff that doesnt need too much coordination like the extreme trials) but when it comes to the new coil where you wanna have the same 8 ppl going so you can get a chemistry going and coordinate at a much higher lvl than u would normally see in PUG groups it becomes pretty cumbersome and annoying trying to fit 8 ppl into one schedule.

I really do think the FFXI vs modern MMO argument comes down to what a persons initial MMO experience was. I've come to definitely think that initial experience dictates a persons out-look on how future MMOs should play out.

For example some replies in this thread have highlighted a point I made in the OP that the levelling process for some people is something that needs to be brushed aside, as if its a mere annoyance until end game. However from my experience it was the levelling process and gradual increase in overall character growth (and thus the growing accessibility of the world around me) that I found the most enjoyable BECAUSE I was playing with people and getting to know them.

Some of the most memorable times I've had in MMO's has been during the now considered evil word "grind" stage because of the people I got to meet and play with. In other words the community.

Its the community, to me personally, that is one of the most vital aspects of an MMO world. To me it was obvious, MMO-"RPG" = playing with others. However MMO doesn't mean that to other people, and it brings me back to my earlier point, that a persons perception of the genre is dictated by their first MMO experience.

So with that in mind I can't help but wonder what would happen if, say, SE came out and announced FFXI-2 but specifically stated that it was not an MMO but instead used another abbreviation to categorise it's genre. Lets call it an "O-JRPG" (O for Online.) FFXI-2 would be just like the pre-abyssea state of FFXI but with the obligatory modern improvements. Would it work? Would there be a sizeable market for such a game? I personally believe there would be, not out of hopeful thinking or anything, but from sheer experience of speaking with people and reading forums, I certainly believe SE would have a highly profitable market for having such a game both from their Final Fantasy fanbase and from people who simply enjoy that type of game.

Just because the current MMO market is dictated by the WoW generation player-base doesn't mean there isn't another sizeable market that a company can make good, solid profits from (just like what FFXI has been doing for a decade) that would make the investment a viable long term option.

@Knivesz Well they cant put in more than the same 3 things over and over, mainly because of how gear is. By that i mean its so simple static and linear (F*ck Ilvls) that they only need 1 top tier set and have to spread that set between events.

If they had more events at the end they would have to start making gear that isnt the same over and over, which would mean some sort of choice and depth...which is considered the devil in a casual-fyed game like this.

Expect this basically every patch: a new dungeon, multiple dungeons repeated with hard mode slapped on it, more coil, another primal with hard and extreme modes and some side event that could have been good if they put more into it and made viable for endgame gear and items.
Thats been the pattern so far and it doesnt seem to be changing.

Look at the new rouge clas/ninja job...its yet another standard DD that seems like its gonna be monk again with more back combos and debuffs. Dual wield you say? Hell no, that would mean not being lazy or making people use their brains for all of 10 seconds. We cant have folk mixing weapons or their heads may explode. Lets just make it 1 weapon on both hands like monk.

That right there means dont ever expect dual wield in this game. They also cant help but NOT get away from everything only being a DPS/TANK/HEAL class, with every event being maxed at 8 and having to pre-set you PT with 1 tank 2 DPS 1 heal (or double those for 8) for everything...also everything is still instanced to death and cross server so who cares about a community.

I want this game to grow a pair and add some depth to it, make open world worth a damn, add in real support and hybrid jobs, make endgame not just the same few instanced things over and over....but SE cant help but follow a strict WoW -esq formula and hope and pray people stick with it.

Even WoW is more complicated than FFXIV >.>

by a good bit sadly.

I wrote a lengthy, pro-XIV, reply. In respect to you all, here's my short version:

No, I'm not a XIV fan-man (boy is beneath me in terms of my years). I recently returned after a 5 month break. And not that I am here to argue against anyone, but felt some of the problems were overlooked or ignored, that plagued XI which primarily was its grinding and at heart, it's community since grinding is a community driven event. Endgame at level 50? lol That in itself is funny. XI didn't hit a solid core of endgame content until level 75. On a side note, curious to know how many played XI when the level cap was only lv50? But, I truly miss XI--I do but I appreciate XIV more. XIV is in it's infancy. We do have a XIV staff that listens to it's community. XIV, I believe, WILL make changes to appease the community, its subscribers.

Long version....

I've only attempted to play WoW (to appease a girl--never again) and found it not to my liking. But I did give it the ol' college try. Maybe I would have played WoW longer (and dated her longer) had I not already found a place for XI. I truly was drawn into XI and played since Ninja's release (CoP I think or just before the expansion??). I do agree with the OP on ALOT of things regarding XI. But that XI is no more, regrettably and yet thankfully.

With XI, I agree that the dev team invested in players too late. XIV 2.0 learned from 1.0 AND XI on this.

It is faster to level up in XI than it is in XIV. The near-instantaneous gratification is evident! The hard to obtain relics are presently solo-able, save the NM fights in Dynamis. Mythics are done in pick up groups not needing an alliance or two. The 36hrs boss fight of legend was manhandled by 4 of us (including his adds). Sadly, lv99 killed that game for me. I've managed 4 relics and 6 empy's in total. I would follow my character's server ranking faithfully and competitively. Empy weps were satisfying to earn but not like the relics, not even close. Many could proclaim that Kikoku was a waste, but still my best achievement in terms of fruition. Being that said, I did all that I could in game while building relationships with FRIENDS that I have yet to meet 'irl' (even typing that has nostalgia linked to XI). I've learned of their marriages, new babies, college degrees, promotions, deployments, etc.... more than some of my family members and had it not be for facebook. In all actuality, one of my groomsman was from XI--a guy that I kept in touch with after I left the service by playing that game, XI! I was mentored through the game in a total of 2 LSs through my entire XI experience. But, here's where I play devil's advocate.

Most of my best conversations (I know that reads funny but I still recall funny quotes or memorable moments from my friends) didn't happen because we're doing <insert activity> it's because "I" generally talk alot during <insert activity> or someone else talks. I don't force it; something is said and someone says something in return and a conversation grows, before we know it, a friendship blossoms. It's not my goal nor intent to meet people, but grind. Yet, I've clicked with them.

In XI, we would have had to make a choice... collect an ls, unequipped an ls, drop an ls? What do I do? In XIV, socially it is dominant. And in XI, I've had more grinding parties where it was just grinding while talking to my ls about random stuff. Rarely was it the other way around--And I'm of those people that chats, alot! I generally end up with commendations in XIV not because of skill (who really knows why) but because I'm the "heart of the party" <--yup, I keep that title active. In XIV, I like the grinding in dungeons. It's fresh and it's rewarding with spoils/gil. It makes things interesting and less stationary, less robotic. As much as I tolerated the grinding in XI, it was bipoloar (my wife's a pyschologist--she said I could use that. :P). It was a spectrum of "awesome" (being able to keep a solid flow of exp chipping away towards the next level) all the way to "waste of my time" (losing exp). 'Awesome' was rare yet almost a high in terms of personal rewards. Of course, weekends and holidays were generally 'awesome'. 'Waste of my time' became expected: People not having access, people having to run to camp, people dying on the way to camp people running out of time, people not repping, and/or people spontaneously combusting with that sniper target indicating a forced d/c (okay, maybe not forced but in a grind fest it's hard not to assume that!!!) So, on that aspect I don't miss it. I'd rather crawl with people and if there is a DC or drop, we can elect to stop the raid or rep. It can be instantaneous and access is RARELY an issue. I've clicked with people from my server several times where it was setup to be a one-raid run that ended up doing several. That's happened quite alot for me and my fc mates that I've met through various crawls. I find that people in lower level dungeons are more tolerable to learning a job vs XI, but that is also because of a wipe and having to reset your position due to death warping or waiting for a raise to venture our way.

We also meet people cross server instead of waiting for a party invite to grinding is expedited---now imagine if XI had approached this idea 8 years ago! Yes, I remember ninja's early days on the dunes and WAS NOT a tank. Even when it evolved into the role we know it to be (my third character of playing through ninja), dunes still sucked for us. Shortly after the dunes (Utsusemi: Ni), ninja was a breeze to level. Fast! Opposite of a DRK's nightmare of a wait time in white gate (think pre-wotg). The community failed in that aspect and multiple times, the ls or friends carried mates/friends through, so long they could /thf lol. I think the experience points are what you make of it and the presence of grinding is there in XIV. Not to mention, I'm glad we gain experience in quests (that makes sense to me) but also, in XI, we lost exp as though our character forgot what they had learned from the previous battle or because of SOMEONE ELSEs negligence? (How does that even make sense?!--it's funny now that I think back on it) I don't miss those days in XI. Do you truly want those days back? I cannot compare that to WoW, but comparing XIV to XI, I feel XIV got it right and the game is still too young for a strong community. I believe the community is present the game in itself is too young. Aside from that, XI forced us to create social sites to gain much needed information that XI lacked to give us.... "so I have to leave the game to search the internet to find the next npc?" Let's be honest, XI sucked for the most part in quests (except CoP! I'm pro-CoP!) because the previous dialog was overly vague. I just do not miss that but I understand that helped build a strong community for XI.

I know people have said that XI wasn't perfect but then chimed why it was still good. I'm the polar opposite. It wasn't perfect and I don't want it back. We went through that game grinding our butts off then that very game evolved into an arcade. XI was head strong on grinding and then ultimately caved due to community pressure/we lost many subscribers. I agree that XI is a "dead breed". The game is active, sure, but it's a shell of it's once unforgiving self. Yoshi-P is probably too compassionate to give you exactly what many NEED, a tough-love game that demands many of your real-life hours and persistence. With that said, I'm sorry. XI was a one of kind game and will be missed. Ultimately, to stopped my sub when I saw weps on the AH more powerful than my REMs. That's when I truly felt the backhand of XI. Took my walk of shame over to XIV and glad I have done so. I know alot of you on this forum will disagree with me but I am optimistic the depth of this game will come with expansions (just as XI had--CoP!!! and WotG). Chin up gang.

@Pandemonium.Leorez: As for dual wielding, I'm torn. I like having to earn both, separate katanas. So, I get where you're coming from. But if you played a DW job on XI, XI really screwed you over mate. NIN/DNC/THFs were treated as single handed jobs--ex: jipped us out of a Kikoku/Kannagi or Twashtar/Mandau combination by taking away stats for offhand. Where as Spharai has awesome stats for BOTH fists. I'd rather have two Kikokus or Kannagis. Ultimately, you are suggesting to having an inferior weapon to your main hand when XIV is providing you an equal dominating weapon. I'd rather take the pair :)

I agree with the topic post 100%... as much as I enjoyed 11 I been playing since ps2 release and stopped around wings of goddess expansion when people started using "[S]" zones to quickly lv up.(haven't played for so long forgot name) but anyway I wont lie I was a victim into using this method but when actually finding 6man xp camps for grinding was a thing of the past its 18man parties where the only thing u can get to lv up, I loved xp grinding it was a way like original poster said to get to know a person and how good he/she was at a given situation and if they knew how to play his/her job, that's another thing I missed people had to know how to play his/her job to be successful and that took time to know the in's and out's but suddenly people started leveling up jobs from 1-max in less then a weeks time and didn't even know what or how to even magic burst (when I was playing anyway idk how it is now) there were a lot of issues with rmt, yes but I loved old ffxi from people all gathering outside of crawler nest because some idiot trained all the high lv crawlers to zone and it was a death trap to even enter lol, this sparked up conversation with other players that you may have not talked to otherwise. to camping 24hr HNM's gave you a since of accomplishment of "Woot! we got claim! or Woot! we got x drop!!" and if your hnmls didn't get claim yes some would be mad but the conversations that took place in waiting for that hnm to pop were great from the trash talking to other hnmls to just chatting among your hnmls friends, people who bot/rmt ectect made the experience worst then it was but all in all the concept was good and I would love to play an MMO like old ffxi once again.

ffxiv had great potential for me, I personally love 14 but its missing that old mmo factor that 11 had. game looks great, crafting system is phenomenal (wish old 11 had a system like 14) but not only everything is easy to obtain but its missing that key factor in connecting with the people your playing with and it just gets boring very quick when u start to get everything u wanted, yes updated content makes u want to starve and improve your gear but for what purpose? when it so easily attainable? I was getting gear in old 11 so I can show it off and people can see... certain gear was more like trophies then staples in old 11. I remember camping thf knife for months on END! before I gotten mine. infact camping thf knife soo long I eventually learned the end's in out's of temple of uggalepih from farming everything in that zone for money or skill ups and learning how to play thf much much better (solo wise). but thief knife wasn't a "need" it was a MAJOR +++ to have but it wasn't a necessity, if u had it people viewed it like a trophy and camping for the knife for over 6months+ 150+ kills and it finally drops u just felt good having it, that feeling of "being the *** man!" needless to say I was sad when they changed the nm to a popable spawn. but I crave to play a game like old 11 soooo bad. after 11 I went from "diablo 3" to "the secret world" to "star wars old republic" to "age of wushu" to "ff14" to "elder scrolls online" (which I just stop playing as well)... and none of these mmo's held my attention for more then a year. I was playing ff11 for 7years+ before I began getting bored, and even when that was happening it took me like a year and a half to 2 years to really give up the game because I would always trick myself into thinking "well maybe they will being it back like the old days" or "maybe the game will get better around the next couple of updates" but after seeing it just topple down hill for me I finally just gave up. and as u can see I loved 11 sooo much I still view these very forums from time to time.

You can love FFXIV and defend for it all you want since everyone has different taste, but honestly, you're making excuses just for the sake of defending for it.

First of all, the definition of endgame as how I understand it is:
The content you do at lv cap.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

Therefore, if FFXIV's current lv cap is lv50, then current content you do at lv 50 is endgame. And the way they design current lv 50 event, are real endgame raid that's similar to other MMORPG.

It doesn't matter if FFXI has no real endgame at lv 50 or not. The MMO design philosophy in 2002 is very different from the design philosophy now. In 2000 all you do is lving and "living in a virtual world" in an MMO. MMO nowadays is all about "lving your class to lv cap as soon as possible so you can do real content".

I'm not arguing about which design philosophy is better, but it's silly to tell people "Endgame at level 50? lol That in itself is funny. XI didn't hit a solid core of endgame content until level 75." when there are absolutely zero reason to compare lv 50 FFXI with lv 50 FFXIV, they're basically different genre in MMO realm.

Secondly, the reason why current FFXIV endgame is like that, is irrelevant to it's age, but more relevant than dev design choices and the target audience it aim for. In 2013 Aug/Sept, you grind coil/primal/currency for gears, in 2014 June, you grind next tier of coil/primal/currency for next tier of gears because the previous tier is obsolete. It doesn't matter if FFXIV is 1 year old or 10 year old, the tier will just continue to go up and lower tier continue to become obsolete. That is the design choice they made, unless they want to change the design direction, it'll remain the same.

You use FFXIV's age as a reason to defend for the current endgame, but age of this game doesn't really matter, it's the design choice that made FFXIV like this.

Also, it's not that FFXIV's staff listens to the community so it's better, it's more like current community is FFXIV's target audience and they liked dev's design choice, and whoever doesn't like it already left. If I go on the OF and yell at the dev to change FFXIV into FFXI, they probably won't listen because that's against their design direction and I'm not their target audience. So I just choose to quit instead and I'm no longer part of the community.

That being said, SE is turning FFXI into something similar to FFXIV with all that tier gear raid and tried to please different target audience, IMO it's a worse design choice anyways.

When XI wanted to go to 99 at first i was ok with it, i thought if they put out a big ol' expansion and basically make it into the next 75 cap era, i would have stayed and loved it. Sadly they raised the cap in the worst way. Some repeat zones sold separate they had to get you from 75 to 99 in just those few areas. Not only that but let make leveling itself (which imo was a huge part of the game) into a joke and make large man content scarce, breaking apart a ton of giant shells.

I stuck through it thinking it would eventually when 99 hit it would be back to the way 75 cap was, so i played on and off, but it took way too long for anything worthwhile to come up. By then most my friends quit, so my desire to play was near none.

Finally the expansion came and i got amped to play again, only to find out they were going to now follow the (imo) stupid casual trend of "ilvl". I came in a couple months later and after a bunch of farming manikin parts me and my remaining friends finished a run and i got myself a great new polearm and after vigorous plasm farming i got new gear for my mains.

Then a few months later new content came....that made everything i just worked for fricken irrelevant...F*CK that. Right after that i pretty much never stuck around long enough to do much and quit for good.

After 14 2.0 launched i noticed they were doing the same "hey every 3 months whatever you just got is now crap" design and quickly could care less. It took one of the more enjoyable parts of FFXI and threw it out the window, everyone was now the same looking, same exact gear and star weilding ilvl hunter.

How do people enjoy that? Every patch having their work mean nothing but a means to the new set of basically the same gear with a new skin and slightly higher stats. Everyone looks the same, only does the same couple events when a new patch drops because only those same things that keep getting repeated over and over have the top ilvl stuff. I couldnt stand it for long and despise that this is the "standard" Yoshi and every other MMO dev seems to desperately follow. Mix that crap with all my other casual standard designs and i have no desire to return to this game or pretty much anything that follows in the same footsteps.

I have to confess, that applies to me. The very first MMO I played was literally the first MMO, aka the Grandfather of MMO's, Ultima Online.

Almost everything about that game is simplistic compared to today's MMO's (especially the 2D graphics), but the level of freedom and customization, I feel, is still unparalleled.

If Richard Garriott were to regain the rights to the Ultima franchise and release a modern day take on Ultima Online, using FFXIV-quality 3D graphics, I would be one of the first subscribers.

I hate the direction todays' MMO's have taken - infact, they shouldn't be called MMO's. They should be called MSO's. Massively Singleplayer Online games.

Can't say I'm impressed by the character art so far, although it's an improvement over previous 3D attempts at Ultima games. At least these ones resemble humans.

<edit> I also don't quite understand the logic behind this:


I suppose it'll be a nifty feature to have, but if I'm buying an MMO, I'm playing an MMO.

That is odd...i mean if you want to play solo or with friends...you can do just that in an MMO, so its an odd thing to have.Like you said id rather just have an MMO proper than w/e this is supposed to be (im still confused tbh)

You americans butcher this saying way too much its COULDN'T care less. Now that glamours are in the game the majority of people don't look the same at all.

im just going to ignore the first part because it's the internet...who the hell cares. As for the second part im sure that helped, but one of the big parts of MMOs was wearing that rare hard to obtain loot and showing it like a trophie or Letting groups you joined know that you were likely to be a pretty good player when you are decked out with some of the best gear (i can tell you i always felt more confident in a player who had lots of good gear over someone in meh gear)

I still have my sub for 14, but I don't have much time to play and when I do the community has got as shitty and rude as 11. It's a sad thing. 11 and 14 are both great games that I've put lots of time into, but the people playing are what ruins them both.