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Is Freedom of Religion Making Sense Fundamentally?
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-05-24 15:29:31
That's about right. Romney and Obama really weren't all that far away from each other. To me, the authoritarian part is more crucial than anything though. It makes total sense.
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-05-24 15:58:31
Isn't Obama supposed to be off the charts in the red zone because he's so obviously a leftist that he's stocked his cabinet with private sector employees so dedicated to spreading the cause of pure communism?
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-24 16:09:36
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Isn't Obama supposed to be off the charts in the red zone because he's so obviously a leftist that he's stocked his cabinet with private sector employees so dedicated to spreading the cause of pure communism?
Yeah. Supporting already-implemented government programs is the Hammer, and supporting homosexual rights is the sickle. Where you been brah?
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Valefor.Tsurara
サーバ: Valefor
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-05-24 16:27:29
As long as the religion doesn't INFLUENCE the decisions made by the government, does it matter if a group of politicians have a prayer?
By Jetackuu 2014-05-24 16:31:00
As long as the religion doesn't INFLUENCE the decisions made by the government, does it matter if a group of politicians have a prayer? Quietly to themselves? No. Sanctioned, and led as part of a ceremony by the states: yes.
Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-05-24 16:33:00
Well that I can't control sadly, nor do I frankly care at this point in time. If the politicians themselves don't like it, then they'll do something about it
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-24 16:33:49
As long as the religion doesn't INFLUENCE the decisions made by the government, does it matter if a group of politicians have a prayer?
Not if it's on their own time.
The problem is a pastor leading the entire congress or senate in a Christian prayer, which broadcasts a message of favoritism.
I'm okay with a chapel (Any/all religion) being built somewhere on the grounds for that kind of service honestly, but I'm just not okay with prayers in the general assembly room. It's an affront to the national premise. (Protection of the individual from the group)
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Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-05-24 16:34:58
Oh that I can understand, if it's done IN the room, that just gives me a vibe...
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
サーバ: Gilgamesh
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-05-24 16:47:48
I think you have bigger things to worry about than Christian theology taking over, since it has done little outside of maintaining the status quo in terms of legality, and no, abortion is not a strictly religious issue.
The Christians are coming!! They are gonna... idk, but it's gonna be.... mildly boring and voluntary... Just run away!!!
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-24 16:55:13
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »I think you have bigger things to worry about than Christian theology taking over, since it has done little outside of maintaining the status quo in terms of legality, and no, abortion is not a strictly religious issue.
I think you give it too much credit. I only see religion in politics as a pandering to a demographic, with those who preach it laughing under their breath at the stupidity and malleability of the average voter. Outliers notwithstanding of course.
But you're right, abortion is not strictly a religious issue. I'd even go so far as to say it's not a religious issue at all.
Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-05-24 16:55:37
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »I think you have bigger things to worry about than Christian theology taking over, since it has done little outside of maintaining the status quo in terms of legality, and no, abortion is not a strictly religious issue.
I did not say anything about abortion nor do I care about that. If it isn't killing/harming/humiliating someone else of yourself, idc about it.
Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-05-24 16:56:17
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »I think you have bigger things to worry about than Christian theology taking over, since it has done little outside of maintaining the status quo in terms of legality, and no, abortion is not a strictly religious issue.
I think you give it too much credit. I only see religion in politics as a pandering to a demographic, with those who preach it laughing under their breath at the stupidity and malleability of the average voter. Outliers notwithstanding of course.
But you're right, abortion is not strictly a religious issue. I'd even go so far as to say it's not a religious issue at all.
It's more or less an issue of personal ethics
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-05-24 17:01:18
I only see religion in politics as a pandering to a demographic, with those who preach it laughing under their breath at the stupidity and malleability of the average voter. Outliers notwithstanding of course. I think you underestimate Christian intellect and education. People think Christians are uneducated and anti-science, yet many scientists and doctors are religious. Many leaders throughout history have been religious. We may have some morons, and those are the ones Bill Maher likes to bias everyone with, but our education as a nation is more hampered from a lack of morals than by a few Christians wanting to teach Creationism in school. After all, we put the NEA in the classroom, took God out, we fund it more per student than any other nation, and we fall behind because the parents fail to reinforce the education.
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By Ciri Zireael 2014-05-24 17:02:55
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »I think you have bigger things to worry about than Christian theology taking over, since it has done little outside of maintaining the status quo in terms of legality, and no, abortion is not a strictly religious issue.
Abortion is an extremely religious issues due to ensoulment. Back before science knew about how conception worked some Christianity thought the soul entered the embryo at quickening and allowed abortions to be performed before ensoulment.
However once science learned more about human pregnancy the church moved back to not allowed abortion at all stages.
Religion as itself is the sole reason abortion is even an issue about legality. The chuch is the one who enforced these things throughout history and still cause controversy over it.
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Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-05-24 17:07:30
However once science learned more about human pregnancy the church moved back to not allowed abortion at all stages.
Religion as itself is the sole reason abortion is even an issue about legality. The chuch is the one who enforced these things throughout history and still cause controversy over it.
Lots of ethical issues were addressed by religions historically, it does not taint them as religious issues for all time. Many atheists and other religions oppose abortion, and many Christians do not.
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By Valefor.Anethesia 2014-05-24 17:10:53
As long as the religion doesn't INFLUENCE the decisions made by the government, does it matter if a group of politicians have a prayer?
No, but that isn't the way of things right now.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-24 17:14:43
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »I only see religion in politics as a pandering to a demographic, with those who preach it laughing under their breath at the stupidity and malleability of the average voter. Outliers notwithstanding of course. I think you underestimate Christian intellect and education. People think Christians are uneducated and anti-science, yet many scientists and doctors are religious. Many leaders throughout history have been religious. We may have some morons, and those are the ones Bill Maher likes to bias everyone with, but our education as a nation is more hampered from a lack of morals than by a few Christians wanting to teach Creationism in school. After all, we put the NEA in the classroom, took God out, we fund it more per student than any other nation, and we fall behind because the parents fail to reinforce the education.
I've personally found that most people who claim to be religious, when actually pressed with out-of-context details are not religious at all.
My hypothesis is that religion is more about group solidarity than actually believing in divinity, afterlife and the various mythologies surround it. It usually folds back into the noncommittal belief in a creator, IE: The initial catalyst of the Universe. After that "God" has no part to play. (See: Deism)
So in a sense, yeah you're right. But in another sense, the title of "religious" isn't nearly as black-and-white as people (myself included) make it out to be.
The supreme court has ruled that prayers during a local government meeting are perfectly valid as long as they do not denigrate non-Christians or try to win converts according to the recent decision.
Quote: A very interesting ruling in the Supreme Court took place yesterday. For awhile now, religious display have been slowly taken down in various government facilities. However, the actual right to say a prayer during a government meeting has just been upheld. Source
Quote: A narrowly divided Supreme Court upheld decidedly Christian prayers at the start of local council meetings on Monday, declaring them in line with long national traditions though the country has grown more religiously diverse.
The content of the prayers is not significant as long as they do not denigrate non-Christians or try to win converts, the court said in a 5-4 decision backed by its conservative majority.
Though the decision split the court along ideological lines, the Obama administration backed the winning side, the town of Greece, N.Y., outside of Rochester.
The outcome relied heavily on a 1983 decision in which the court upheld an opening prayer in the Nebraska Legislature and said prayer is part of the nation's fabric, not a violation of the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion. Source
Quote: In her dissent, Kagan said the council meeting prayers are unlike those said to open sessions of Congress and state legislatures, where the elected officials are the intended audience. In Greece, "the prayers there are directed squarely at the citizens," she said.
Kagan also noted what she described as the meetings' intimate setting, with 10 or so people sitting in front of the town's elected and top appointed officials. Children and teenagers are likely to be present, she said.
Kennedy and his four colleagues in the majority all are Catholic. They are: Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.
Kagan was joined by Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor. Of the four, three are Jewish and Sotomayor is Catholic.
Senior counsel David Cortman of the Alliance Defense Freedom, which represented the town, applauded the court for affirming "that Americans are free to pray." Source
Quote: No one seems to have wanted to address the issue of praying in itself, no matter what religion the prayer is from, is apart of the nation’s fabric. While a seemingly insignificant point at first glance, this actually means a lot.
Basically put, the act of praying is not only a part of the nation’s fabric, but it leaves the impression that you have to pray in some sort of fashion no matter where the prayer itself comes from. Does this mean you can make up your own prayers? Would you also have to explain what faith those self made prayer derive from as well?
Once again the simple fact that chanting any prayer is not addressed and completely disregards the secular community’s desire to put all the superstitions of religion behind society and move forward to more practical things like running a decent government.
Freedom of religion therefore implies that the act of praying is fine, but don’t you dare display any visual representation of this fact. Or is this just a way to comprise between all sides of the argument, thereby leaving a perplexing set of rules that ideologically seem to contradict one another? Source
The main questions here involve the act of praying and whether or not prayer should be considered apart of nation's fabric? Even if it was a common thing many years ago, should it still be or shall we as a nation start tackling contradictory notions such as this?
Another factor to consider is why only the audience of a prayer was used as the main argument and not the act of praying itself? Does not a prayer derived from any religion infer that said religion has been chosen publicly chosen over others?
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