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Random Politics & Religion #00
 Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-11-13 11:18:10
All of those things "make sense" now, but had lots of opposition and nationalistic rhetoric thrown at them when deprivatization was proposed
Okay? I don't care about what people in the past thought about it, as it doesn't change my opinion one bit.
Public retirement has been of the most successful government programs in the history of the world. and would easily weather the baby-boomers without change
I hope you're right about that because I think your stance on it is entirely too optimistic. I think you're absolutely wrong, though, but for once I look forward to eating crow.
And, although tax money is often wasted, government has been shown throughout history to be the overwhelming best return on investment for it's citizens.
Anyone who has ever lived with an oppressive and/or corrupt government (read: a lot of freaking people) might find good cause to disagree with such a broad statement. Even if it's true, it's still a very poor argument for why the government should take over any one industry.
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By Jassik 2015-11-13 11:23:12
I hope you're right about that because I think your stance on it is entirely too optimistic. I think you're absolutely wrong, though, but for once I look forward to eating crow.
That's not my stance, it's the stance of big finance analysts. The biggest threat to SSI is partisan witch-hunts.
Anyone who has ever lived in a corrupt government (read: a lot of freaking people) might find good cause to disagree with such a broad statement. Even if it's true, it's still a very poor argument for why the government should take over any one industry.
Right, 600+ sovereign states in modern history and like 45 have had legitimate net negative impact on their citizens, and that's rounding up. Every example or statement put forth is either too specific or too broad for you. It seems like you hit the nail on the head here.
it doesn't change my opinion one bit
By Ramyrez 2015-11-13 11:24:02
Wait, are you saying that Social Security (the only public form of retirement plan in the US) is a great example of government-led efficiency?
Have you even listened to any of the news about Social Security?
Many of Social Security's problems and shortcomings are attributable almost entirely to your beloved Regan and Greenspan.
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By Jassik 2015-11-13 11:28:53
Wait, are you saying that Social Security (the only public form of retirement plan in the US) is a great example of government-led efficiency?
Have you even listened to any of the news about Social Security?
Many of Social Security's problems and shortcomings are attributable almost entirely to your beloved Regan and Greenspan.
Yeah, one of the biggest unreconciled hits to SSI was his hike in payroll taxes and subsequent heist of over 2.5 trillion in surplus to fund government without appearing to raise taxes. It set a really terrible precedent for borrowing against SSI that is still in practice to this day. The public doesn't even seem to care why SSI has a negative cashflow currently, because on paper it should be turning massive returns as investment.
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サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 124
By Odin.Strummer 2015-11-13 11:31:24
You are correct, it is impossible for anyone to display leadership qualities on an online forum.
I missed the part where Nik asserted this, but regardless it's a statement I disagree with, for whatever that's worth. Or maybe I missed some sarcasm? Or is this some kind of backhanded passive-aggression aimed at the mods?
If this is truly your opinion, I'd be curious to know more about it. I'm interested in theories of leadership, which I believe are on-topic in a thread about politics and religion, and this statement of impossibility seems spurious and perhaps disingenuous.
I'm not trying to throw fuel on the fire; I'm sincerely curious to know more about why you believe it is impossible for anyone to display leadership qualities on an online forum. Hell, I personally believe that even trolls exhibit some leadership qualities (not necessarily positive ones, mind), but maybe we're just looking at things from radically different perspectives...?
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 11:34:54
The alarmist bullhockey? Yeah, I've heard it. Read the actual CBO assessments. It's got a negative cashflow, which is to be expected, but SSI has a running balance of almost 3 trillion dollars and the interest alone outweighs that negative cashflow. The only reason SSI is portrayed as being in trouble is because it's routinely borrowed from and because there is strong political support for cutting entitlements among social conservatives.
SSI is not in trouble, it's just a political hot-topic. You mean where the very trustees who oversee the fund are saying that by 2034 they will have to cut benefits down to 3/4 as mandated by law and the fund will be completely empty by 2089? Those alarmists?
Reality... Dollars in against services provided. If you can't talk intelligently about the topic, don't quote or respond to me. In other words, if I don't absolutely agree with you, don't bother talking to you? What else is new?
Many of Social Security's problems and shortcomings are attributable almost entirely to your beloved Regan and Greenspan. And by your beloved Clinton and Obama, so what's your point?
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-11-13 11:40:49
Right, 600+ sovereign states in modern history and like 45 have had legitimate net negative impact on their citizens, and that's rounding up. Every example or statement put forth is either too specific or too broad for you. It seems like you hit the nail on the head here.
You said best return on investment, not net positive return on investment. You also didn't specify modern history. So yeah, it's not crazy that I thought your statement was too broad.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 11:41:42
I missed the part where Nik asserted this, but regardless it's a statement I disagree with, for whatever that's worth. Or maybe I missed some sarcasm? Or is this some kind of backhanded passive-aggression aimed at the mods?
If this is truly your opinion, I'd be curious to know more about it. I'm interested in theories of leadership, which I believe are on-topic in a thread about politics and religion, and this statement of impossibility seems spurious and perhaps disingenuous. It's impossible to display leadership qualities in an ambiguous environment where any display of loyalty (a sign of leadership) is given to either the most charismatic or the most antagonistic person who posts. Given the venomous attitudes displayed on these forums, charisma is null in showing leadership qualities.
That's why those who attack others are considered more liked on this forum than those who actually stand by their stances. Case in point: Linkshell Ni thread.
AKA on an online forum, leadership is replaced by popularity. Which is given on any presidential politics. This is not high school, but it certainly acts like it.
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By Jassik 2015-11-13 11:44:57
You mean where the very trustees who oversee the fund are saying that by 2034 they will have to cut benefits down to 3/4 as mandated by law and the fund will be completely empty by 2089? Those alarmists?
Yes, the ones who based their projections on trends within a recession and near 0 interest rates. Plus, they assume that payroll taxes will not increase, nor will relative income, and that everyone currently alive will claim benefits in their lifetime and completely exclude PPACA's impact on SSI recipients' largest benefit expense.
The program needs a few changes, namely they need to either establish a funding source for OASI or integrate it, reform payroll taxes, and bar future leveraging and borrowing for general fund deficits.
That's actually the trustee's assessment.
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-11-13 11:47:31
This is not high school, but it certainly acts like it.
Calling it high school might be generous at times. Junior high/middle school fits better in a lot of cases.
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By Jassik 2015-11-13 11:48:32
Right, 600+ sovereign states in modern history and like 45 have had legitimate net negative impact on their citizens, and that's rounding up. Every example or statement put forth is either too specific or too broad for you. It seems like you hit the nail on the head here.
You said best return on investment, not net positive return on investment. You also didn't specify modern history. So yeah, it's not crazy that I thought your statement was too broad.
Modern history being nearly the entirety of civilization, bud. There weren't many structured sovereign states prior to ~1000 BCE.
What metric would you use to quantify "best" if not net? That's literally the definition of return on investment: money out vs services in. For a guy who called me a nit-picker, you sure are doing a ton of it on this topic and have yet to contribute a single alternative.
 Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 11:50:33
Considering that despite the 400ish visitors daily the regular posters are always the same, popularity makes little impact here cause you can say we're all equally popular with each other. You could argue connections instead, which yes might play a role because if you come with an army of friends you're likely to be challenged less and backed up more.
You can see online too leadership qualities, though they're tangential(what I mean by this is you don't necessarily see them applied in the act of actually leading, but rather in the attitude). The alpha elements always emerge, regardless of the environment. And you, surely aren't one KN.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 11:52:05
You mean where the very trustees who oversee the fund are saying that by 2034 they will have to cut benefits down to 3/4 as mandated by law and the fund will be completely empty by 2089? Those alarmists?
Yes, the ones who based their projections on trends within a recession and near 0 interest rates. Plus, they assume that payroll taxes will not increase, nor will relative income, and that everyone currently alive will claim benefits in their lifetime and completely exclude PPACA's impact on SSI recipients' largest benefit expense.
The program needs a few changes, namely they need to either establish a funding source for OASI or integrate it, reform payroll taxes, and bar future leveraging and borrowing for general fund deficits.
That's actually the trustee's assessment. There are other ways to get the trust fund back to sustainable funding. Like repayment of loans the Federal Government made for instance.
But the trustees (by law) have to report the funding situation, and they (again, by law) cannot dictate policy. They can make suggestions, but that's it.
But I still cannot believe you consider the trustee's report "alarmist" and therefor dismiss their report because, well basically, you don't agree with them.
Also, I'm still waiting on your assessment, backed by sources, as to the following assertion:
And, although tax money is often wasted, government has been shown throughout history to be the overwhelming best return on investment for it's citizens.
Because history states otherwise. Or did you forget what happened with USSR? Or what's happening now with China? You know, those utopia nations you endear to.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 11:52:41
China is an utopia??
By Jassik 2015-11-13 11:54:00
Hold on, 2 communist countries are your definition of the history of government? Seriously, I'm done talking to you
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 11:55:07
Considering that despite the 400ish visitors daily the regular posters are always the same, popularity makes little impact here cause you can say we're all equally popular with each other. You could argue connections instead, which yes might play a role because if you come with an army of friends you're likely to be challenged less and backed up more.
You can see online too leadership qualities, though they're tangential(what I mean by this is you don't necessarily see them applied in the act of actually leading, but rather in the attitude). The alpha elements always emerge, regardless of the environment. And you, surely aren't one KN. So, basically, you just described popularity equals leadership. Which is not the case. Although leaders work better when they are liked, you don't have to be the most popular person to be a great leader.
Case in point: Every single US president since Reagan. All fluff, no real leadership qualities. Unless you consider sleeping with an intern a leadership quality.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 11:55:52
That's not what I said. Trying reading a post before replying to it next time, it works better.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 11:58:05
Hold on, 2 communist countries are your definition of the history of government? Seriously, I'm done talking to you You were the one who's claiming that governmental control trumps private business. I gave you two perfect examples where that is not the case (one with an inflated economy, one destroyed by a political revolution). I did not say those are the only two, you inferred that in your counterargument, which shows how little you know.
But hey, anything to try to "win" an argument, right?
So, why don't you block me and get it over with?
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-11-13 11:58:42
Welp, rather than go down this path forever, we might as well get back to more concrete issues. Let's see, money out vs. services in.... Well, once the government implemented ACA, I'm getting less services every year at a substantially higher price. And hey, that's actually an example of the government putting its nose into a private industry. Good job, government!
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:00:05
That's not what I said. Trying reading a post before replying to it next time, it works better. You said that popularity isn't a key factor in leadership, except when it is (hence your alpha comment).
Unless you are meaning other qualities you can find in online conversations. If so, why don't you describe what the "alpha elements" you are referring to for online interactions.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 12:00:35
Being alpha does not mean being popular.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:01:04
Welp, rather than go down this path forever, we might as well get back to more concrete issues. Let's see, money out vs. services in.... Well, once the government implemented ACA, I'm getting less services every year at a substantially higher price. And hey, that's actually an example of the government putting its nose into a private industry. Good job, government! Don't worry, it will always get twisted into "government good, businesses bad" rhetoric you will find from our far-left posters here.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:02:00
If so, why don't you describe what the "alpha elements" you are referring to for online interactions. Being alpha does not mean being popular. Perfect answer there!
Why don't you admit that you don't know what you are talking about next time? It will save us a lot of time.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 12:02:48
If you don't know what the word means then don't pretend you do like here You said that popularity isn't a key factor in leadership, except when it is (hence your alpha comment).
By Ramyrez 2015-11-13 12:03:08
And by your beloved Clinton and Obama, so what's your point?
Yet the *** again anything I've ever said negative about either mentioned president -- admittedly more so the former than the latter -- has been entirely ignored and I'm lumped in as "one of those liberals."
Outfuckingstanding.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:03:27
But hey, anything to try to "win" an argument, right?
That's all you've been doing honestly, trying to twist things to win arguments. How am I twisting anything? Jassik's argument is "government does a better job than private industry" without providing any examples. And when presented with 2 perfect examples to the contrary, he responds "I don't want to talk to you anymore."
Is that twisting anything?
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:04:00
If you don't know what the word means then don't pretend you do like here You said that popularity isn't a key factor in leadership, except when it is (hence your alpha comment). Trying reading a post before replying to it next time, it works better.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-13 12:04:56
I didn't say that thing I quoted from you that you attributed to me.
Talk about twisting things..
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-11-13 12:07:08
And by your beloved Clinton and Obama, so what's your point?
Yet the *** again anything I've ever said negative about either mentioned president -- admittedly more so the former than the latter -- has been entirely ignored and I'm lumped in as "one of those liberals."
Outfuckingstanding. You are critical towards Obama, I will admit, but certainly not as much as you are towards Bush or Reagan. And you practically praise Clinton, even though the highlight of his presidency is humping an intern.
So, what's your point again?
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