Random Politics & Religion #00

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Random Politics & Religion #00
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:17:37  
fonewear said: »
In gay cake news: (I know you want it)

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/azucar-bakery-did-not-discriminate-by-refusing-to-115703680320.html


Michael Walsh

Azucar Bakery did not discriminate by refusing to make anti-gay cakes: Colorado



The Colorado Civil Rights Division has ruled that a baker who refused to make cakes with anti-gay messages did not discriminate.

Marjorie Silva, owner of Azucar Bakery in Denver, says she got the news on Friday but knows that Bill Jack, a Christian from Castle Rock, Colo., will likely appeal the decision.

“I’m happy that we were not just morally right but legally right,” she said in an interview with Yahoo News. “Hopefully this will lead to a better world where we are friendly to each other.”

In March 2014, Jack asked Silva to make him a Bible-shaped cake with anti-gay messages, such as “Homosexuality is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:22.” He also wanted the cake to include two men holding hands with a large X over them.

She agreed to make the dessert in the shape of a book but declined to include the hateful content.

Silva has been inundated with messages of support from LGBT people and their allies since refusing to reproduce the homophobic messages.

“About 2,000 of the emails I got were of support. There were four hateful, so that’s not even 1 percent. So it looks like humanity is going in the right direction and things are changing for good,” she said.

The baker, originally from Peru, says she is neither Christian nor gay but has respect for all people regardless of religious conviction or sexual orientation — she simply does not tolerate hatred.

“However you want to worship God [is fine by me]. In the end, he’s the same God for everybody,” she said. “I don’t think he would like us discriminating against each other and hating each other. Now, I haven’t read the entire Bible, but it’s common sense.”

Silva regularly makes cakes for Christian customers to celebrate Christmas, Easter and other spiritual occasions.

Many of her Christian customers have told her they support her actions completely and do not feel Jack’s beliefs represent their faith.

It’s unlikely Jack ever wanted the cakes in the first place. Silva thinks he was just trying to prove a point about the ongoing controversy over Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) and a recent case of anti-gay discrimination in Colorado.

In 2012, Jack Phillips, an owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop in Lakewood, Colo., cited his faith as justification in refusing to make a wedding cake for Charlie Craig and David Mullins.

The American Civil Liberties Union stepped in to represent the gay couple after they filed a discrimination complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, which concluded that Craig and Mullins had in fact suffered discrimination. Phillips is appealing the ruling.

Mark Silverstein, legal director of the ACLU in Colorado, says Jack cited the same legislation, which forbids discrimination based on race, sexual orientation, religion or sex, to rail against Azucar Bakery.

“This man tried to claim he also experienced a violation of the public accommodations statute but he was not discriminated against because he’s Christian,” he said in an interview with Yahoo News. “They had a policy that they apply across the board; they are not going to make a cake with such offensive, over-the-top language or images.”

Silverstein, who oversees litigation in a variety of civil liberties cases, shares Silva’s doubts about whether Jack was ever a legitimate customer.

“I think it was more like a stunt to make some misplaced point about the public accommodations statute,” he said.

Azucar Bakery has started selling T-shirts that say, “Because God loves everyone … let’s eat cake”; proceeds will go toward the bakery’s legal fees.
Someone tell me why does this person get to practice their secular beliefs but Christians cannot?
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-04-07 11:27:29  
Can you tell us what christian beliefs this person is not being allowed to practice?
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:27:31  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Someone tell me why does this person get to practice their secular beliefs but Christians cannot?

Did you read it? She's actually practicing Christian beliefs in refusing to engage in hate speech. It's pretty clear from context she would have refused to to make a cake depicting Jesus banging Mary Magdalene, too. It's not that it's secular or religious; it's that it's clearly intended to offend.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand Christianity.
 
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:31:30  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Someone tell me why does this person get to practice their secular beliefs but Christians cannot?

Did you read it? She's actually practicing Christian beliefs in refusing to engage in hate speech.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand Christianity.

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
"The baker, originally from Peru, says she is neither Christian nor gay."

1st, She claims to not be christian.

2nd, No one is advocating that she no be allowed to discriminate in the way that she is.

3rd, Why do you get to decide what is a christian value and what isn't? Why does you opinion matter to anyone else's beliefs?

All you're arguing for is that it's ok for you to discriminate against someone for your beliefs, but it's not ok for them to discriminate against you for their beliefs.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:32:19  
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Can you tell us what christian beliefs this person is not being allowed to practice?

Hating on gays obviously! Nausi is a member of Westboro.

Nah. He'd actually have to do something for that. He's just going to tell us all how everything they do is perfectly okay and acceptable.
 
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By 2015-04-07 11:34:25
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:37:12  
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
1st, She claims to not be christian.

2nd, No one is advocating that she no be allowed to discriminate in the way that she is.

3rd, Why do you get to decide what is a christian value and what isn't? Why does you opinion matter to anyone else's beliefs?

Can't see the difference between a regular cake for a gay wedding and a cake containing hate speech messages.

2 digit IQ for sure.

I see, so only the type of speech you agree with is permitted. That's what I thought.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:37:14  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
1st, She claims to not be christian.

But she acknowledges she believes in God in some capacity and clearly shares some core beliefs.

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
3rd, Why do you get to decide what is a christian value and what isn't? Why does you opinion matter to anyone else's beliefs?

Jesus was pretty clear in the things he said. These are not my opinions. And the things he said weren't, "love everyone! (except the gays; I *** hate those guys*. ***all over them!)"

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
2nd, No one is advocating that she no be allowed to discriminate in the way that she is.

You're really not getting what's going on here.

You have a right to deny service to those with a hateful message.

You do not have a right to use your hateful message to deny service.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:38:34  
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
2 digit IQ for sure.

Now, now. There are plenty of technically intelligent morons out there. Look at that jackass neurosurgeon who thinks he can be president. And I know some absolutely delightful people who, while not the brighest crayons in the box, enrich the lives of all those around them.
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By fonewear 2015-04-07 11:41:31  
Intelligent morons...does not compute !
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:42:17  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
1st, She claims to not be christian.

But she acknowledges she believes in God in some capacity and clearly shares some core beliefs.

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
3rd, Why do you get to decide what is a christian value and what isn't? Why does you opinion matter to anyone else's beliefs?

Jesus was pretty clear in the things he said. These are not my opinions. And the things he said weren't, "love everyone! (except the gays; I *** hate those guys*. ***all over them!)"

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
2nd, No one is advocating that she no be allowed to discriminate in the way that she is.

You're really not getting what's going on here.

You have a right to deny service to those with a hateful message.

You do not have a right to use your hateful message to deny service.
Only speech that you agree with is permitted. If you oppose the message, you have no problem censoring the speech. You're view could not be any more clear.

What's really funny is that I'm pretty sure any amount of people pointing to your hypocrisy wouldn't be enough to shake you out of your denial.
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By fonewear 2015-04-07 11:43:11  
What is hate speech ? Being offended that's what !
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 Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2015-04-07 11:43:31  
The guy, on behalf of his religion, was asking for a cake that discriminates gay people.

Azucar Bakery refused. The only thing they are guilty of discriminating is discrimination itself.
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By 2015-04-07 11:44:29
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:44:45  
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
The guy, on behalf of his religion, was asking for a cake that discriminates gay people.

Azucar Bakery refused. The only thing they are guilty of discriminating is discrimination itself.
There we go, it's not discrimination to discriminate against discrimination.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:47:16  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
I see, so only the type of speech you agree with is permitted.

Nausi, take every single argument you have supporting discrimination and repression of homosexuality and apply it to interracial marriage. Because that's exactly how things were back when that was illegal.

You try to defend it, you try to say that anyone who argues with you is a hypocrite. You try to say that we're being closed-minded and not accepting of others' beliefs.

You simply fail to realize that this isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of fighting a preconceived prejudice; a message of hate engrained in society.

It's losing its hold, though. Some day you'll come around. Or the world will move on without you.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:47:17  
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Pretty sure everyone think it's fine for a baker to refuse making a cake containing hate speech against christians and everyone would think it's not fine for a baker to refuse making a regular cake for someone because he is christian.

Nausi doesn't understand discrimination nor hate speech.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

Educate yourselves.
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By fonewear 2015-04-07 11:47:56  
The amount of feels in this discussion is too high !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:48:37  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
The guy, on behalf of his religion, was asking for a cake that discriminates gay people.

Azucar Bakery refused. The only thing they are guilty of discriminating is discrimination itself.
There we go, it's not discrimination to discriminate against discrimination.

...it's not. It's so not.

This is your failing, Nausi.

You think racism, sexism, homophobia, and all other kinds of discrimination are valid, okay "beliefs" to have.
 
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-04-07 11:50:55  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Someone tell me why does this person get to practice their secular beliefs but Christians cannot?
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Can you tell us what christian beliefs this person is not being allowed to practice?
Can you answer this one for me?
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:51:07  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Pretty sure everyone think it's fine for a baker to refuse making a cake containing hate speech against christians and everyone would think it's not fine for a baker to refuse making a regular cake for someone because he is christian.

Nausi doesn't understand discrimination nor hate speech.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

Educate yourselves.

Context -- "educate yourself"

"Discrimination" in this instance clearly refers to not simply the general definition of a word, but to the specific act of exclusion of or negative acts against someone because they belong to a specific race, sex, sexual preference, age, etc.
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By fonewear 2015-04-07 11:51:52  
That dictionary has a clear liberal bias though !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:52:13  
fonewear said: »
That dictionary has a clear liberal bias though !

Yeah. It requires you know how to read.

It's asking a lot in the more conservative parts of the South, I admit. Maybe we should make a television show for the white trash demographic that teaches them the basic meanings of words; it could air right after Springer, that way they'd be sure not to miss it when their cousin is on the show.
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By fonewear 2015-04-07 11:53:11  
Much as I'd like to argue semantics for the good of the country I must make gay wedding cakes !

Judge not the sexual orientation of the cake judge the content of it's character !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-04-07 11:54:38  
fonewear said: »
Judge not the sexual orientation of the cake judge the content of it's character !

Dry and flavorless.

Next!
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:56:01  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
I see, so only the type of speech you agree with is permitted.

Nausi, take every single argument you have supporting discrimination and repression of homosexuality and apply it to interracial marriage. Because that's exactly how things were back when that was illegal.

You try to defend it, you try to say that anyone who argues with you is a hypocrite. You try to say that we're being closed-minded and not accepting of others' beliefs.

You simply fail to realize that this isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of fighting a preconceived prejudice; a message of hate engrained in society.

It's losing its hold, though. Some day you'll come around. Or the world will move on without you.

So only speech you agree with is permitted because if it isn't black people will someday not be able to marry outside their race.

Racial discrimination is still allowed today bud, see any kind of race specific club or organization. Sexual discrimination as well. You might as well say, "if we don't put "Curves" out of business then "Curves" will cause black people to one day not be allowed to marry outside their race."
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 11:58:27  
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
The guy, on behalf of his religion, was asking for a cake that discriminates gay people.

Azucar Bakery refused. The only thing they are guilty of discriminating is discrimination itself.
There we go, it's not discrimination to discriminate against discrimination.

...it's not. It's so not.

This is your failing, Nausi.

You think racism, sexism, homophobia, and all other kinds of discrimination are valid, okay "beliefs" to have.

So some thoughts aren't okay to have and should be censored, because you find them offensive.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-04-07 12:00:14  
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Someone tell me why does this person get to practice their secular beliefs but Christians cannot?
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Can you tell us what christian beliefs this person is not being allowed to practice?
Can you answer this one for me?

I wasn't referring to the specific person in the story but the overall objection of people of whom the RFRA laws are suppose to protect.
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